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RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 3:15:56 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		WyldHrt, you translated what I was saying perfectly.

I know that the skin of submissives feels cold to the touch when they space. I've also felt the pulse and it has slowed. To me, it all just fits that it's neurogenic shock. A vagal response to the intense sympathetic stimulation. But whatever it is...they love it :),

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 3:22:48 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kallisto


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

The best aftercare is to let her suck your cock until she feels better.




That must be on page 1 one of the Dom handbook.


It's on the cover.

But, seriously again, reading what everyone does is interesting. What I think good Doms do afterwards, in one way or another, is tell the submissive that we are crazy as she is and we are both in this together. It's reassuring to know you are not alone in your desire for bdsm play. That's one of the reasons CM and the forums are so appealing to all of us..Dom or sub.


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RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 4:00:13 AM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

I know that the skin of submissives feels cold to the touch when they space. I've also felt the pulse and it has slowed. To me, it all just fits that it's neurogenic shock. A vagal response to the intense sympathetic stimulation. But whatever it is...they love it :),

See, what you said about the symptoms (which I agree with, having been there) is where I'm having a problem. The number one and two symptoms of neurogenic shock are low bp and warm extremities. Most of the time, the skin of a 'spaced' submissive is cold. This does not jive with uncontrolled vasodilation, which makes the extremities abnormally warm. As for a slow pulse, that is absolutely not an indication of shock, let alone neurogenic shock. As the volume of blood flowing though the heart per minute decreases, the heart works much harder, leading to a fast, thready pulse.

I do love it.... I just don't agree that it is neurogenic shock. The symptoms just don't jive for me.


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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 4:51:16 AM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		I think we may be all talking a bit crossways.  I've observed to distinct afterstates... One which sure as hell seems like shock, and another which looks like utter narcotic euphoria.  I've never been in either so I have no idea which state to call what. I assume the euphoric state is an endorphin high you see this after pain play.  The shock one I see more of when psychological edgeplay is ended and exited (properly or not)... thats the "Oh I'm so glad that's over, but what the hell just happened?" look that won't go away. 

I'd really like to have a better understanding of this myself, its unfortunate the the subject is too taboo for research.  

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 7:23:15 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		The only direct study of bdsm "states" that I know of was one where oral swabs were taken after play. There is a soup of chemicals released and it isn't any of the states being bantered around here. Neurotransmitters like oxytocin and others are being released and yes, there are lots of endorphins but people have to remember people enter some of these states without serious impact play and so there is clearly a lot more going on than simple shock and to say things like the sympathetic nerve system is involved is like saying breathing is involved, it is so broad as to be meaningless.

Its much more useful to stick with discussing what we know about the symptoms and emotional reactions of people which is something we DO know about.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 7:27:13 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		What study? I would be interested in reading it.

Got a link?

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 3:08:04 PM   
MissAmaranth


Posts: 15
Joined: 7/2/2010
Status: offline 		eep - conditioning to not need aftercare?

I absolutely need it and think it's extremely important. I just need lots of cuddling and bringing back out of the subby headspace afterwards. I'd feel awful if I didn't get that!

Amaranth. x

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 3:14:48 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

What study? I would be interested in reading it.

Got a link?


.....apparently not

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 5:37:47 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Marie2, I agree, the only times when I've experienced "sub drop" was usually right after play, sometimes the next day, if I felt insecure in the relationship or that my partner was emotionally detached when I needed connection. I usually started crying a bit, and felt lonely and down. That's the only time when I've really needed the cuddles and talk, but even so, if we were having problems, then pretty words and hugs didn't fix it, just made me feel a bit better for a while.

Michael, while I love snuggling, it actually tends to make subspace last longer! If he has planned to play with someone else afterward, or do a DM or other shift, and I need to drive, I'm usually fine hanging out with people in the social area until I can walk a straight line and talk coherently again. If we were at home, snuggling up and going to sleep is fine, rather than anything really elaborate. I'm usually only in the endorphin space type of subspace you mention, with the occasional rare and unintended exception I mentioned to Marie2. I've never really been drawn to humiliation/verbal degradation. I kind of suspect that if I did go there, I wouldn't believe they really meant it at the time, so it would just be roleplay, and I wouldn't need a lot of reassurance afterward, or else I'd believe them, and even if they said nice things afterward, it wouldn't help much. Of course, there's also a physical degree of aftercare, especially with needles, singletails, and other things that break the skin. In general, I like lots of snuggling and maybe service, but if they're busy, I can manage. On the flip side, if I top someone, I try to make sure I don't have any responsibilities shortly afterward, to make sure they are cared for properly. My femsub playpartner happens not to need a lot of aftercare beyond physical wound care. Occasionally we've played when she only had a short block of time free. If she were the sort of person who got floaty and unsafe to drive or incapable of talking afterward, it would be irresponsible of me to play with her unless we had the time to help her come back to Earth.

Jujubee, I have to disagree that this difference automatically means that the two of you should break up. It's quite possible that there isn't any other solution, especially if you've talked with him about it several times already. However, one suggestion I haven't seen is for him to continue the scene for you in a way that is relatively passive for him, so he can come down before comforting you and talking with you. Putting you in a cage, keeping you in bondage or blindfolded or hooded, having you kneel or give him a massage or a blowjob can all keep you (in the generic sense) in subspace. If he really needs to get away for a few minutes as QSM described, it's trickier, since you shouldn't be alone in more extensive bondage, just in case, but there are options that can give him space while you're still floaty. If he still refuses or resents giving you aftercare, then I think you should dump him, and you certainly shouldn't have to beg or nag or "earn" it.


< Message edited by Andalusite -- 7/4/2010 5:51:46 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 5:47:05 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

What study? I would be interested in reading it.

Got a link?


.....apparently not


I just made it up, you can feel all smug that you caught me in a lie if that makes you feel better.

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 5:52:31 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

What study? I would be interested in reading it.

Got a link?


.....apparently not


I just made it up, you can feel all smug that you caught me in a lie if that makes you feel better.


lol not really, my ego isn't so desperate for a boost....but thanks

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And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 5:53:12 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Actually, I would have rather read the study..:)


The smug stuff happens in P&R

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 6:06:42 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I don't know about the rest of y'all but I don't have warm extremities and low bp after. The reverse in fact. I've always assumed that some of this is due to low blood sugar. I can't play on a full stomach. On the other hand if I haven't eaten for hours, I can be literally shaking with cold after. A couple of times he's not only had to make the tea but also hold the cup for me. And unless it's at bedtime when I slide right into sleep, we eat after.

The fact that a handful of chocolate chips has on more than one occasion kept me from dropping, when I could feel myself teetering on the edge, teary for no reason, just makes me assume even more that it's a blood sugar thing.


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RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 6:10:01 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		Funny I don't drop at all, I feel energized and sparkly afterwards, no negative effects at all. I've never needed aftercare at all and I've engaged in some pretty heavy play.

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

Team Troll Trollop
Member: Cocksuckers For World Peace
Charter member: Lance's Fag Hags
Member: Subbie Mafia
Member: Hibbie's Hotties

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 6:10:14 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

I know that the skin of submissives feels cold to the touch when they space. I've also felt the pulse and it has slowed. To me, it all just fits that it's neurogenic shock. A vagal response to the intense sympathetic stimulation. But whatever it is...they love it :),

See, what you said about the symptoms (which I agree with, having been there) is where I'm having a problem. The number one and two symptoms of neurogenic shock are low bp and warm extremities. Most of the time, the skin of a 'spaced' submissive is cold. This does not jive with uncontrolled vasodilation, which makes the extremities abnormally warm. As for a slow pulse, that is absolutely not an indication of shock, let alone neurogenic shock. As the volume of blood flowing though the heart per minute decreases, the heart works much harder, leading to a fast, thready pulse.

I do love it.... I just don't agree that it is neurogenic shock. The symptoms just don't jive for me.



As you said, I have seen the symptoms of neurogenic shock include warm limbs although I also see the symptoms described as a cold torso. Blood flow is redircted from the core to the limbs and that causes hypothermia. In additiion, there are degrees of shock that follows a process. In bdsm play I see it as a very mild form (and whether it is even neurogenic shock is admittedly debatable) of neurogenic shock.

Where I will totally disagree with you is the bradycardia. Neurogenic shock is different than other forms of shock in that it presents with a slowed heartrate. It is characteristic of neurogenic shock, although it is sometimes not found.

In any case, I'm going out on a limb here with this whole notion. Most believe it is an endorphin high, but that just doesn't seem dramatic enough to me.

< Message edited by ExSteelAgain -- 7/4/2010 6:12:21 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Aftercare - 7/4/2010 8:06:12 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		If it helps, for me, it's absolutely nothing like the endorphin based runner's high I used to get when I was an avid runner. The endorphins from running would make me feel very run down the next day if I wasn't really careful about eating right and drinking massive amounts of water though.

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Aftercare - 7/5/2010 2:50:03 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		You know, I have access to academic research journals but would never go near this topic on the website. I like my job!

I did try to find something on google, and NOTHING. At least, nothing I could find. I can't imagine with all the kinky folks in uni that it hasn't been studied. In fact I know that there are people who write papers about this sort of thing but don't get them published. I wrote the paper comparing psychological therapy with prostitution. That went over well in my nice little Catholic University. mmmm hmmmm.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Aftercare - 7/5/2010 5:56:19 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Well I would guess there's something out there, probably not on BDSM, but on pain and the effects.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Aftercare - 7/5/2010 7:48:48 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Funny I don't drop at all, I feel energized and sparkly afterwards, no negative effects at all. I've never needed aftercare at all and I've engaged in some pretty heavy play.


See everyone..... they do exist.

Not everyone becomes Primortial Ooze which need a geneticist to reassemble.

QSM

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RE: Aftercare - 7/5/2010 8:56:20 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan
Not everyone becomes Primortial Ooze which need a geneticist to reassemble.


I'm going to use my laser gun and turn you into primordial ooze. And I'm not going to turn you back, either

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Profile   Post #: 180
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