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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 6:45:38 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

Not necessarily, different people respond emotionally and physically to different things, hurting may not be the determining factor.


I agree... it is not always "pain" that leads to the need for aftercare...

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 6:46:11 PM   
Jeffff


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

what is exactly the line between after care and cpr?



If it is successful it is after care.....it not........

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 6:47:40 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
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From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		I know, I was just trying to stay on topic and it was the first thing that came to mind *grins*

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 6:48:48 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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From: The Great Frozen North
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

what is exactly the line between after care and cpr?



If it is successful it is after care.....it not........


Time for a trip to the dumpster *grins*

_____________________________

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 7:30:58 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you very much, VAA I do feel that I've gotten some great advice, but if anyone has anything new or constructive to add, or just wants to share their take on aftercare, I'm still incredibly interested. There is next to nothing about aftercare on the internet, and it all seems to be pretty vague.

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 8:14:00 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		He sounds like a guy who thinks "foreplay" should be earned too. Maybe its all about him?

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Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 8:23:15 PM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		jujubee,
In any relationship, there are sacrifices to be made - even these kinds of needs. There will be times that you won't get what you want/need and have to wait. Same for him. It is the nature of relationships. Without the sacrifice, a relationship will fall apart. However, while a certain amount of sacrifice is necessary, only you can say what is too much sacrifice. That is true for everyone.

Whatever you decide...
best,
sunshine

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 8:24:29 PM   
RedStapler


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Joined: 6/15/2010
From: New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

Thank you very much, VAA I do feel that I've gotten some great advice, but if anyone has anything new or constructive to add, or just wants to share their take on aftercare, I'm still incredibly interested. There is next to nothing about aftercare on the internet, and it all seems to be pretty vague.


You're absolutely right, jujubee.  In nearly every discussion or "comprehensive" guide to BDSM I have read online (discussing limits beforehand, safewords, and everything else that needed to be done to keep things SSC) I don't think I ever saw aftercare get a single mention.  My feeling is that aftercare is in general a poorly understood area, even among the community, or perhaps its just that people really don't consider it until the need for it is staring them right in the face. I really hope that it starts to get as much attention as it deserves.  All BDSM safety guides should really include a section on it.

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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 10:13:20 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		There are two primary of types of aftercare that I am aware of.


  • If someone has done serious endorphin play, they get a bit spacey. Some people snap right out others stay that way for a bit and staying around till they are sort of "sober" again tends to be a good idea
  • Emotional play that tears someone down is a place some of us feel some amount of emotional "restoration" is needed


For endorphin play after tends to be sitting at the feet of the top/dom/whatever while they recover. I tend to have them sit/kneel while I clean up and then have them sit at my feet or in my lap. If I really need to bring them back I might brush their hair, whisper sweet things in their ear (which counter the uglier stuff we may have been exploring earlier) and caress their neck and things of that sort. I also have a very soft blanket as they are often chilled if the endorphins were really flowing. Its not exactly rocket science but like most things, you can make an art of it but sometimes you are just gilding a Lilly.

I have known lots of people who experience sub drop a day or two later, I have known a few who were genuine.

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RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 10:27:02 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:


I have known lots of people who experience sub drop a day or two later, I have known a few who were genuine.


subdrop only happened a day or two later, when my brain chemistry crashed...

Other parts of your observation are correct... emotional aftercare is not the same....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Aftercare - 7/1/2010 11:16:20 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		I'd be curious to know what subspace really is medically. The shaking, disorientation, changes in body temperature etc all seem to be some form of mini-shock. I'm fairly certain the drop is most likely from the rush of endorphins then none. I say that because it tends to be more likely to happen after more intense activities and stronger, more lasting resulting disorientation, etc. It is more likely him forcing me to drink water, eat..etc..helps to keep that from happening than TLC. I find it curious to doubt a biological reaction. I would guess when that drop happens and I don't have the TLC, I associate it with emotions because for me that TLC is very important. I'm obviously not a doctor, just one that has been through this many times and observed by own reactions and conditions.

Again, I think trying to define when aftercare is necessary by types of play is silly. It's necessary when it's a need on either side, period.

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 12:32:49 AM   
Plasticine


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Joined: 6/9/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I'd be curious to know what subspace really is medically. The shaking, disorientation, changes in body temperature etc all seem to be some form of mini-shock. I'm fairly certain the drop is most likely from the rush of endorphins then none. I say that because it tends to be more likely to happen after more intense activities and stronger, more lasting resulting disorientation, etc. It is more likely him forcing me to drink water, eat..etc..helps to keep that from happening than TLC. I find it curious to doubt a biological reaction. I would guess when that drop happens and I don't have the TLC, I associate it with emotions because for me that TLC is very important. I'm obviously not a doctor, just one that has been through this many times and observed by own reactions and conditions.

Again, I think trying to define when aftercare is necessary by types of play is silly. It's necessary when it's a need on either side, period.


From the outside looking in it looks like shock to me.  The endorphin high is distinctly different, you can see the persons eyeballs floating then.

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RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 2:33:32 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I'd be curious to know what subspace really is medically. The shaking, disorientation, changes in body temperature etc all seem to be some form of mini-shock. I'm fairly certain the drop is most likely from the rush of endorphins then none. I say that because it tends to be more likely to happen after more intense activities and stronger, more lasting resulting disorientation, etc. It is more likely him forcing me to drink water, eat..etc..helps to keep that from happening than TLC. I find it curious to doubt a biological reaction. I would guess when that drop happens and I don't have the TLC, I associate it with emotions because for me that TLC is very important. I'm obviously not a doctor, just one that has been through this many times and observed by own reactions and conditions.

Again, I think trying to define when aftercare is necessary by types of play is silly. It's necessary when it's a need on either side, period.


From the outside looking in it looks like shock to me.  The endorphin high is distinctly different, you can see the persons eyeballs floating then.



Actually this makes me think. A question to you D-types, what does subdrop look like from your perspective?

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 8:44:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I'd be curious to know what subspace really is medically. The shaking, disorientation, changes in body temperature etc all seem to be some form of mini-shock. I'm fairly certain the drop is most likely from the rush of endorphins then none. I say that because it tends to be more likely to happen after more intense activities and stronger, more lasting resulting disorientation, etc. It is more likely him forcing me to drink water, eat..etc..helps to keep that from happening than TLC. I find it curious to doubt a biological reaction. I would guess when that drop happens and I don't have the TLC, I associate it with emotions because for me that TLC is very important. I'm obviously not a doctor, just one that has been through this many times and observed by own reactions and conditions.

Again, I think trying to define when aftercare is necessary by types of play is silly. It's necessary when it's a need on either side, period.


I agree... there have been a couple of times that I would get impacted the next day... I would feel like I had a really bad hang over with a side order of emotional meltdown that felt like a really bad case of PMS... thank god it only happened a couple of times

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 11:54:11 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I'd be curious to know what subspace really is medically. The shaking, disorientation, changes in body temperature etc all seem to be some form of mini-shock. I'm fairly certain the drop is most likely from the rush of endorphins then none. I say that because it tends to be more likely to happen after more intense activities and stronger, more lasting resulting disorientation, etc. It is more likely him forcing me to drink water, eat..etc..helps to keep that from happening than TLC. I find it curious to doubt a biological reaction. I would guess when that drop happens and I don't have the TLC, I associate it with emotions because for me that TLC is very important. I'm obviously not a doctor, just one that has been through this many times and observed by own reactions and conditions.


Medically, I believe it is a parasympathetic (vagal) response to the intense sympathetic stimulation of the beating. It's a form of neurogenic shock. Many feel that it's simply the endorphin high from the sympathetic beating, but I think spacing is actually neurogenic shock.

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 3:11:23 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

I'd be curious to know what subspace really is medically. The shaking, disorientation, changes in body temperature etc all seem to be some form of mini-shock. I'm fairly certain the drop is most likely from the rush of endorphins then none. I say that because it tends to be more likely to happen after more intense activities and stronger, more lasting resulting disorientation, etc. It is more likely him forcing me to drink water, eat..etc..helps to keep that from happening than TLC. I find it curious to doubt a biological reaction. I would guess when that drop happens and I don't have the TLC, I associate it with emotions because for me that TLC is very important. I'm obviously not a doctor, just one that has been through this many times and observed by own reactions and conditions.


Medically, I believe it is a parasympathetic (vagal) response to the intense sympathetic stimulation of the beating. It's a form of neurogenic shock. Many feel that it's simply the endorphin high from the sympathetic beating, but I think spacing is actually neurogenic shock.


Thanks for the info, but can you translate that to layman's terms please? What about the drop a day later? Is that a symptom of the shock?

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 5:32:43 PM   
WyldHrt


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quote:

Thanks for the info, but can you translate that to layman's terms please?

I can. Neurogenic shock is basically when the signals from the autonomic nervous system (the body's 'autopilot' for things like digestion) are interrupted. The autonomic nervous system contains both sympathetic (the part that 'speeds things up') and parasympathetic (the part that 'slows things down') systems, that work in tandem. One of the things controlled by the autonomic nervous system is vasodilaton, or how much blood flows through which blood vessels and when. When the signals are interrupted, the patient's blood vessels all dilate at once, lowering the volume of blood flowing through the heart and causing the body to go into shock. Neurogenic shock is usually caused by severe head trauma or spinal injury, and the symptoms of it are low blood pressure coupled with warm extremities.

ESA's position is (please correct me if I am wrong) that the stimulation of a beating triggers a chemical reaction from the sympathetic nervous system, which in turn floods the the parasympathetic nervous system, causing an interruption in the signals sent from the brain to the blood vessels, resulting in neurogenic shock.




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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 5:53:32 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks Wyld! You're a wise woman. Would it be likely to cause "sub drop"? Is there a medical possible explanation for the resulting crash a day later?

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 7/2/2010 6:11:18 PM >

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 6:22:07 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:


I have known lots of people who experience sub drop a day or two later, I have known a few who were genuine.

Wait a minute.  Who said this?

I will absolutely promise you that for a number of people, this is genuine.  I won't claim it according to sub drop, but I certainly will attest to it for top drop.  I wrote a response just this morning on another thread saying so.

While not particularly a guarantee, I've absolutely experienced top space well into the next day after playing.  (Watch for early Sunday morning posts that say My head isn't 'right'.) If I am still happy and content through that day, My brain might not adjust until Monday.  Depending on where My focus is, I may very well not experience drop until Tuesday.

I realize that you said 'few' rather than 'none'.  I just wanted to speak up as one of the few.


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Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Aftercare - 7/2/2010 6:22:37 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		You know, I'm wondering if any of the medical literature has information about this. If not, it would be an interesting study. Hmmmm.

I mean who would have thought that prayer and meditation would be an interesting study? But it's been done. And the interesting thing there was that Buddhist Monks and Catholic Nuns went into the exact same physiological state. Seems "G*d" is medically the same no matter what name is given. Heh. (sorry off topic)

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Profile   Post #: 140
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