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RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 4:00:13 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

There is no requirement of romantic love for casual S/m play.  I consider it the BDSM version of friends with benefits, except that it involves playing instead of physical sex.


i agree w/ this. Even though i now have the "whole package," when i did have a casual play partner, love was not part of it. Like LP says, the BDSM version of friends w/ benefits. There are as many different types of relationships and/or encounters as there are people in them, and none of them are wrong if they're right for the people involved.

~sweetsub~

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In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 4:31:55 PM   
RTSDOMME


Posts: 1
Joined: 7/13/2010
Status: offline 		I love my sub with all my heart, always have, always will, and a couple people have hit on the fact that there is a deeper level of trust involved in these relationships, at least it is true for me.. Several others mentioned that some people don't describe intimate details, just talk about the kink stuff , which is probably true.  How boring would it be otherwise? But for the record, yes, there can be a true, deep love if that's what you want, its all up to the individuals involved.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 6:20:54 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		I wasn't looking for love when I came here but in the end that's what I found and I think it's pretty cool. It enhances our D/s relationship and I think takes it to a deeper level.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 9:43:17 PM   
Plasticine


Posts: 260
Joined: 6/9/2010
Status: offline 		GR

Interesting responses.

I understand that not everyone is looking for romance or love for a variety of reasons.

I also understand that the quality of individual relationships is often not discussed when the topic is kink.

What I was really curious about though is the large number of OPs on these boards that seem like they would be non-issues if the parties involved actually cared about each other.  These aren't exactly relationship advice forums but a lot of topics seem to revolve around relatively vanilla relationship problems and so does the feedback.  Telling someone to be honest with their partner about their needs, for example, is really not at all about kink; Yet it seems to be the flavor of one of the most common replies to most any topic.  It's this disconnect that fascinates me. 



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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 9:59:20 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Telling someone to be honest with their partner about their needs, for example, is really not at all about kink; Yet it seems to be the flavor of one of the most common replies to most any topic.  It's this disconnect that fascinates me. 


1) Many people who are involved in BDSM incorporate it into their relationship structure, therefore the questions they ask about revolve around their relationship and not the kink.

2) because many people see BDSM as a relational thing and not just a fast hook up kink fuck buddy thing, the intimacy aspects are important to many of us.

3) The things that make for good relationships do not change just because there is kink involved. You need the same relationship skills as you need with other people to have successful relationships even if they revolve around kink. Even with a casual partner you would need to know how to set boundaries, watch for abusive people, etc...

What I have found is that there is not much difference between a good D/s dynamic and a good vanilla relationship...a lot people want to make it bigger, more deep, more profound, requiring deeper trust, etc... in my personal experience on planet Earth, that is just a bunch of bullshit.

Healthy people have healthy relationships, if people think they can take a kinky shortcut to something better, they usually end up pretty disillusioned...

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 10:12:10 PM   
KevinSWM


Posts: 41
Joined: 6/1/2010
Status: offline 		For me it's a matter of narrowing down a search.
It's not hard to find a girl that wants to be loved, cuddled and treated like a lady. Finding a girl that's into BDSM is a bit more difficult.
A relationship for me requires both. So it's best to first locate someone kinky. That eliminates the majority of the population. Then I can sort through the rest based on other traits that I'm looking for. With any luck I'll find the right girl for me without first trudging through several vanilla relationships that never grew into anything fulfilling.

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RE: Where's the love? - 7/13/2010 10:13:17 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine

GR

Interesting responses.

I understand that not everyone is looking for romance or love for a variety of reasons.

Thank you.  I do realize that I am in the minority.  I tend to think that most people already involved tend to come just for the forums or for the friends only basis.  There are many people who don't play casually or outside a relationship and I support them in that.

quote:

It's this disconnect that fascinates me. 

I don't mean for this to come across the wrong way, but have you thought about that?  What fascinates Me more is that people actually have to be told that communicating with the person you're dealing with is necessary to have a healthy relationship.  That kink doesn't mean check your morals or your common sense at the door.  Words like compatibility don't have a different definition just because you're calling that person Master instead of boyfriend or if people are going to understand you that you may have to use the right term.  All of this is the easy stuff.




< Message edited by LadyPact -- 7/13/2010 10:14:42 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 6:50:50 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

What I was really curious about though is the large number of OPs on these boards that seem like they would be non-issues if the parties involved actually cared about each other. These aren't exactly relationship advice forums but a lot of topics seem to revolve around relatively vanilla relationship problems and so does the feedback. Telling someone to be honest with their partner about their needs, for example, is really not at all about kink; Yet it seems to be the flavor of one of the most common replies to most any topic. It's this disconnect that fascinates me.


Ok, I'm going to wax philosophical here, from a quarter of a century of pastoral counseling experience. I don't see this as a "caring" issue -- I see this as what my stepdaughter so eloquently described as a "culturally pervasive dysfunctionally awkward socialization capacity" issue. For some reason, perhaps because of the wide variety of relationship options that are out there, and the general scattered nature of our culture with so few healthy role models for the wide variety of options that are out there, many of the folks who are alive today just don't seem to know how to manage interpersonal relations -- and this comes out in a big way when complicated by fancy dynamics like the inclusion of fetish/authority dynamics, multiple-partner, and kink-based situations. Frankly, in the past decade -alone- I've seen a profound increase in the number of regular vanilla relationships that don't seem to have a solid foundation in interpersonal communication and sharing... when all of the individuals who are exploring themselves from off-sides perspectives get factored into the mix, and they start trying to establish relationships in these areas where there really isn't any kind of generally recognized support network, and they're already shy of good relationship skills... well... it gets downright messy.

Add to this the general nature of the human being to deceive oneself and ignore the aspects of oneself that are either uncomfortable or which one suspects might prevent opportunities to get sex or form a family and it's not surprising to me that most of the questions that come up on the boards tend to be more about issues in basic relating skills than anything having to do specifically with fetishes or kink.

The hardest job I have as a counselor is helping people see -themselves- clearly, and helping them accept that their likes, dislikes, interest and lack of interest, and their perceptions are just part of who they are. Once they accept themselves, with all their quirks, preferences, and acknowledged challenges, it's possible to decide what they really -want- out of a relationship (or if they really want one at all at this point in their lives).

Life without compromise and life without regret, based on as accurate a picture of oneself as we can manage as humans... it's a good goal, and makes for healthy relationships... but how many people do you know who can manage that kind of personal honesty, and who really WANT to, regardless of the work and emotional expense of getting there?

Calla




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***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 7:09:43 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KevinSWM

For me it's a matter of narrowing down a search.
It's not hard to find a girl that wants to be loved, cuddled and treated like a lady. Finding a girl that's into BDSM is a bit more difficult. A relationship for me requires both.


In my opinion finding a kinky girl is relatively easy. Finding a lady with the same inclinations is definitely harder. I've noticed that the latter isn't abundantly popular and even so there's the idea that ones femininity is bad if it isn't relating to domestic activities.


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

What fascinates Me more is that people actually have to be told that communicating with the person you're dealing with is necessary to have a healthy relationship.  That kink doesn't mean check your morals or your common sense at the door.  Words like compatibility don't have a different definition just because you're calling that person Master instead of boyfriend or if people are going to understand you that you may have to use the right term.  All of this is the easy stuff.


The voice of wisdom. I wish those words were embedded on message forums. It would alleviate the necessity of reminding people of the obvious when they haphazardly forget.


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

Add to this the general nature of the human being to deceive oneself and ignore the aspects of oneself that are either uncomfortable or which one suspects might prevent opportunities to get sex or form a family and it's not surprising to me that most of the questions that come up on the boards tend to be more about issues in basic relating skills than anything having to do specifically with fetishes or kink.

The hardest job I have as a counselor is helping people see -themselves- clearly, and helping them accept that their likes, dislikes, interest and lack of interest, and their perceptions are just part of who they are. Once they accept themselves, with all their quirks, preferences, and acknowledged challenges, it's possible to decide what they really -want- out of a relationship (or if they really want one at all at this point in their lives).

Life without compromise and life without regret, based on as accurate a picture of oneself as we can manage as humans... it's a good goal, and makes for healthy relationships... but how many people do you know who can manage that kind of personal honesty, and who really WANT to, regardless of the work and emotional expense of getting there?


My goodness someone gets this!!! You have summed up my sentiments perfectly. And when I'm mentoring a girl this is precisely what I tell her. I advocate self knowledge and discovery before one ventures off into relationships. And I'll candidly admit that when you know yourself you make better decisions and slavery isn't all that difficult. In fact, it's pretty darned simple in my book. You are your biggest obstacle on the kneel. Knowing how to overcome that prior to its inception makes the aftermath much smoother. Thank you for sharing.

~porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

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RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 7:29:26 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: I advocate self knowledge and discovery before one ventures off into relationships. And I'll candidly admit that when you know yourself you make better decisions.
~porcelaine



I wanted to point this out. I have a line in my profile that says self awareness is more important than experience and this echoes that. Far, far too many people lack this essential component and that makes it difficult for them to have any type of relationship, let alone a love based one.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 7:46:08 AM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine



What I was really curious about though is the large number of OPs on these boards that seem like they would be non-issues if the parties involved actually cared about each other.  These aren't exactly relationship advice forums but a lot of topics seem to revolve around relatively vanilla relationship problems and so does the feedback.  Telling someone to be honest with their partner about their needs, for example, is really not at all about kink; Yet it seems to be the flavor of one of the most common replies to most any topic.  It's this disconnect that fascinates me. 





I agree, but I think what is actually true is that even in the vanilla world people have a difficult time talking to their significant others openly and honestly. Here people get caught up in role images and I think that furthers the difficulty. I don't care how dominant the guy is, if he's being a jackass and you don't tell him that, you're only inviting relationship failure. There's so much "not true" bullshit running around though I think people lose track of the fact that it's still two human beings do the best they can to accomodate each other into each others lives.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 7:46:31 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I wanted to point this out. I have a line in my profile that says self awareness is more important than experience and this echoes that. Far, far too many people lack this essential component and that makes it difficult for them to have any type of relationship, let alone a love based one.


sexyred1,

I concur and I think that leads to many of the challenges I've encountered on this side of the whip. Some of the questions raised are simple not due to the level of intelligence required, but merely an understanding of self that would provide the answers the individual seeks. Although I value the community venues of this nature provides, I encourage the women I mentor to find their own answers before they solicit input from others. I believe that is an important part of submission that is rarely stressed. There's much to be gained from internal wrestling that results in a proverbial aha!

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 7:59:27 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Plasticine



What I was really curious about though is the large number of OPs on these boards that seem like they would be non-issues if the parties involved actually cared about each other.  These aren't exactly relationship advice forums but a lot of topics seem to revolve around relatively vanilla relationship problems and so does the feedback.  Telling someone to be honest with their partner about their needs, for example, is really not at all about kink; Yet it seems to be the flavor of one of the most common replies to most any topic.  It's this disconnect that fascinates me. 





I agree, but I think what is actually true is that even in the vanilla world people have a difficult time talking to their significant others openly and honestly. Here people get caught up in role images and I think that furthers the difficulty. I don't care how dominant the guy is, if he's being a jackass and you don't tell him that, you're only inviting relationship failure. There's so much "not true" bullshit running around though I think people lose track of the fact that it's still two human beings do the best they can to accommodate each other into each others lives.


Yes. I've seen an awful lot of people that do not seem to understand that ALL successful relationships require good communication. Many of them on here seem to believe that a power exchange relationship is an easy out to that communication.

Guys (and women also) full of swagger and ego, think that they can pull the D or M card and spout off phrases like "Because I said so!!!" and have that absolve them from honest communication and nurturing the relationship. Or visa versa with the s-types. Then they wonder why they still cannot have successful relationships.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 8:03:01 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		People are giving much more in-depth, thoughtful answers than I have the energy (and probably the insight) to come up with. But I think it boils down to this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

...many of the folks who are alive today just don't seem to know how to manage interpersonal relations.


That goes for people who don't engage in wiitwd as much as it does for anyone here.

OP: in this environment hundreds of people discuss their personal relationships-do you discuss the relationship difficulties of that many of the non-perves (I'm trying not to say 'vanillas' but I can't think of a term that doesn't offend me) that you come across? Unless you're some kind of counsellor I doubt it. But I bet if you did there would be just as many daft communication issues as you get here.

Some (many?) people are open here in ways they aren't F2F. As a result I'd expect get a misrepresentation of the differences between wiitwd/non-wiitwd relationships, because the people you're comparing with are much more reticent than those posting here.

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 8:04:13 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I gotcher love right here beyotch!


(grabbing his crotch)

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 8:07:42 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

I wanted to point this out. I have a line in my profile that says self awareness is more important than experience and this echoes that. Far, far too many people lack this essential component and that makes it difficult for them to have any type of relationship, let alone a love based one.


sexyred1,

I concur and I think that leads to many of the challenges I've encountered on this side of the whip. Some of the questions raised are simple not due to the level of intelligence required, but merely an understanding of self that would provide the answers the individual seeks. Although I value the community venues of this nature provides, I encourage the women I mentor to find their own answers before they solicit input from others. I believe that is an important part of submission that is rarely stressed. There's much to be gained from internal wrestling that results in a proverbial aha!

~porcelaine

Add the above to what calla said:  Life without compromise and life without regret, based on as accurate a picture of oneself as we can manage as humans... it's a good goal, and makes for healthy relationships... but how many people do you know who can manage that kind of personal honesty, and who really WANT to, regardless of the work and emotional expense of getting there?

and, in my mind at least, you find something essential.  The idea that self-awareness, being able to introspect and see where you and/or your partner have gone wrong or right can lead to the development of the tools to move onto or continue along a right path.  That involves something else you see in healthy relationships...communication.

To the OP, these things noted above...self-awareness, introspection, the ability to use that self-awareness and introspection to make yourself and your dynamic better and to communicate with your partner about doing so...are all a big part of kink but they are also a big part of any relationship.  They don't necessarily translate to love but they can certainly lead us to that place.  But once we get there, it may or may not be a lasting love.  Personally, I think that they have to be in place for any sort of dynamic/relationship to continue on for a long time...whether that relationship be casual or long-term...and I am fairly certain from what I have seen in at least one relationship that they HAVE to be in place for a relationship to build beyond a certain level.

Some folks don't like introspection...they don't want to look at the relationship or themselves and see what can be done to improve it.  Some folks don't like communication...they want to figure things out in their own head and then, when it is too late to resolve something, they communicate with their partner or, in some cases, they just run.  But that happens in all kinds of relationships, not just kink and not just "vanilla".  Those skills have nothing to do with love, they have to do with looking to be in a successful relationship.

I admit to looking at the "kink compatibility" of someone I am dealing with.  But experience has taught me that for me, these other things have to be in place.  And that still has nothing to do with love.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 9:11:56 AM   
KevinSWM


Posts: 41
Joined: 6/1/2010
Status: offline
quote:

In my opinion finding a kinky girl is relatively easy. Finding a lady with the same inclinations is definitely harder. I've noticed that the latter isn't abundantly popular and even so there's the idea that ones femininity is bad if it isn't relating to domestic activities.


Perhaps as I get more involved in the local scene that will be true for me as well. My life outside the bedroom has been fairly vanilla thus far.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 10:00:56 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

and, in my mind at least, you find something essential.  The idea that self-awareness, being able to introspect and see where you and/or your partner have gone wrong or right can lead to the development of the tools to move onto or continue along a right path.  That involves something else you see in healthy relationships...communication.


CreativeDominant,

Much like you I've yet to encounter a successful long lasting relationship where all parties involved were both happy and fulfilled on some level that didn't include communication in its makeup.

quote:

Some folks don't like introspection...they don't want to look at the relationship or themselves and see what can be done to improve it. Some folks don't like communication...they want to figure things out in their own head and then, when it is too late to resolve something, they communicate with their partner or, in some cases, they just run.  But that happens in all kinds of relationships, not just kink and not just "vanilla".  Those skills have nothing to do with love, they have to do with looking to be in a successful relationship.


I find persons like that are very good at pointing the finger and articulating where someone else - including the other party - has gone wrong but they have a very difficult time gazing into the mirror themselves. Or they're just too arrogant to do so and hide behind the mantle of dominance and believe their actions are above reproach.

quote:

I admit to looking at the "kink compatibility" of someone I am dealing with.  But experience has taught me that for me, these other things have to be in place.


I look at the man. If I don't like him as an individual I won't like his kink or dominance either. You can't separate the two from their root.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 2:34:14 PM   
Frankseas


Posts: 61
Joined: 1/16/2010
Status: offline 		So why would a person look for love on a site like this? There are way to many variables for one to over come. Liking him as a individual liking his kink liking his attitude, liking the way he thinks/acts!?

Why not enjoy being with a like minded person for the kink itself and not love. If love comes along later...well deal with it and enjoy it. For you were lucky to find it here.

Some will find it and others wont. And there are those who seek love as well as others that dont find it important enough to enjoy BDSM with it.

To each his own!

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Where's the love? - 7/14/2010 3:18:13 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Frankseas

So why would a person look for love on a site like this? There are way to many variables for one to over come. Liking him as a individual liking his kink liking his attitude, liking the way he thinks/acts!?

Why not enjoy being with a like minded person for the kink itself and not love. If love comes along later...well deal with it and enjoy it. For you were lucky to find it here.

Some will find it and others wont. And there are those who seek love as well as others that dont find it important enough to enjoy BDSM with it.

To each his own!



Why do you differentiate? The kink is an expression like any other. Some guys buy flowers, others beat you ass til it's purple (ha!). Seriously I don't get the separation between kink and emotion. Kink is sex to me and yes also love.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Frankseas)
Profile   Post #: 60
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