Punishment, the wrong idea?

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MagiksSlave -> Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 7:37:13 AM)
Ok, with the recent cropping up of all these punishment threads, I felt almost obliged to start one of my own, with a slightly different, somewhat, more critical slant. If there is one thing that I have learned through attaining my undergrad in psychology and the subsequent classes taken in behaviorism for my masters and admission into ABAI (not to mention the hours of in field training and on the job experience), is that punishment, as a corrective measure, deterrent or teaching tool, does not work in the way it is intended. This, in theory is not just applicable to children but to adults as well. Now I am not referring to funishment. I know a good many of us enjoy a good role play session, compete with a spanking for being ‘naughty.’ That is a horse of a different color, and not what I am concerned with here. Furthermore, I am not even going to touch, the fact about being an adult and not needing to be punished. For ME that is a given and not the point of this thread, especially given the fact that so many of my lovely board mates have touched upon this point in the other threads. What I bring to you all to discuss, is the actual effectiveness of punishing as a corrective measure within your relationship. I am sure I am going to get many people saying “different things work in different relationships, and to each their own.” But again, I am not talking about a person’s right to choose their dynamic. It is a given that we all have the right to choose whatever kind of relationship we want. What I am concentrating on here, is the very real fact that punishment, though it may initially appear to provide the desired results, it does not, in fact, do what it is intended to do. Now I will explain why. Punishment is a negative action, an unwanted, undesired and unpleasant, additional consequence placed on the person who has acted in an unfavorable way. Punishment, negative in its very nature, produces negative feelings in those receiving it. It works as a temporary stop to the behavior, it is extrinsic in nature and extrinsic forces only work while present. Once the pain, emotional and or physical is gone, so is the lesson. This being the case the infraction is often times repeated. Punishment does, however, teach fear. Fear of punishment makes a person likely to do just enough to avoid punishment, it does not, however, promote the desire to be good and do better. It does not make the want to behave an intrinsic thing which is what it needs to become in order for a person to want to behave when the punishment is forgotten. Natural consequences of an action are by far a much better teacher then any punishment, natural consequences being the things that happen, without being planned, as a direct result of a behavior. This, I believe, is a very effective way for adults to learn. In fact, this is the way most adults do learn (with children cause and effect needs to be explained in order for them to get that their behavior caused the consequence.) Reinforcement is also another proven way to promote the behavior you desire. This is a concept implemented with children, but the fact of the matter is, this isn’t a child or adult issue but more a human issue. Reinforcement concentrates on rewarding desired behavior instead of punishing the non desired behavior. Now, I know there are many subs on here that have said they are punished infrequently and when they are they never repeat this infraction. These subs, I have found, are usually the ones that have the intrinsic need to behave already within them. They will not repeat the infraction, not because their Dom spanked them, or ignored them, but because deep down they know they did wrong and feel awful. These subs probably never needed to be punished in the first place for they were already kicking themselves in the ass, and probably never would have repeated the infraction, regardless of being punished or not. So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? PS: Yes I know [sm=beatdeadhorse.gif]

Missokyst -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 8:47:23 AM)
LOL and this below could be a bad thing on a person who gets off on fear. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Punishment does, however, teach fear. Fear of punishment makes a person likely to do just enough to avoid punishment, it does not, however, promote the desire to be good and do better.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 8:57:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Missokyst LOL and this below could be a bad thing on a person who gets off on fear. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Punishment does, however, teach fear. Fear of punishment makes a person likely to do just enough to avoid punishment, it does not, however, promote the desire to be good and do better. LOL very true!

SimplyMichael -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 9:05:22 AM)
(Mod note, children are mentioned solely because the majority of research is based on children and they are ONLY being discussed in reference to how those behaviors can be used on adults) While I agree with the spirit of your post, punishment can and does work in children IF used correctly although sadly that is often not the case. Minor punishments help a child internalize a desired behavior Over the top punishments (as seen all to often in bdsm) actually have the reverse effect The reason is that as children become more self aware, and thus more like adults, they gain the skill of rationalization. So a really minor, almost incidental punishment (like a negative tone, a disaproving look) doesn't evoke rationalization and sort of slips into the unconcious. However, a punishment big enough to invoke the rationalization reflex, is countered with "mom/master is a jerk" and viola...no effect. Combine that with lots of positive affirmation for correct behavior and you actually get the person to internalize your morals and values. Instead of it being "master wants it this way" it becomes "I want it this way" and you have reshaped your partner's behavior at a core level and imprinted on them deeply. This isn't a one way effect either, subs can do it to dominants just as we do it to them. Bossyshoebitch and I to this day are still imprinted on each other in certain areas and she now see things my way and I hers. Sometimes that is a wonderful gift, other times, well it can be a bit awkward or frustrating but the point is, done well the effect is very very powerful.

laurell3 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 9:25:02 AM)
I don't know, I'm an adult, I really don't see much value to punishment for an adult, although I do think the converse of reinforcing positive actions works well for most people. I don't do punishment dynamics and know that for me they would be only negative. I really prefer to have open and honest communication in my relationships rather than role based expectations and consequences. Additionally nasty only turns me on, I'm not sure that would really improve behavior [;)]. That having been said, over the years I have talked with many submissives that are in favor of punishment. I think it's important to note that most psychological studies don't take into account the average personality you will find on these sites. Disappointment can be huge and hard to deal with for someone that has an overwhelming desire to please. Punishment can allow that type of personality to let go of the percieved failure and move forward. I disagree that there is no distinction between adults and children and do think there is some value in using punishment with children although I support selective, rare and nonphysical punishment. I can recall with the most positive adult figure in my life, being punished on only three occasions. They were instances where the behavior being punished was dangerous ie: setting the neighbor's lawn on fire, playing with a gun, etc. Because the punishment was so rare, it had a very profound impact on me, and I had no fear of my grandfather ever. Additionally, I think the studies on this issue vary. Time-outs are punishment, but the majority of child experts I know support them to teach children to learn self-control. Punishment is sometimes a necessary evil with children that are still learning behavior modification. One would hope that adults are past that point and I would argue that if you find one that isn't, they aren't ready for a relationship and a Dom makes one hell of a pisspoor psychologist/therapist.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 10:41:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: laurell3 I don't know, I'm an adult, I really don't see much value to punishment for an adult, although I do think the converse of reinforcing positive actions works well for most people. I don't do punishment dynamics and know that for me they would be only negative. I really prefer to have open and honest communication in my relationships rather than role based expectations and consequences. Additionally nasty only turns me on, I'm not sure that would really improve behavior [;)]. That having been said, over the years I have talked with many submissives that are in favor of punishment. I think it's important to note that most psychological studies don't take into account the average personality you will find on these sites. Disappointment can be huge and hard to deal with for someone that has an overwhelming desire to please. Punishment can allow that type of personality to let go of the percieved failure and move forward. I disagree that there is no distinction between adults and children and do think there is some value in using punishment with children although I support selective, rare and nonphysical punishment. I can recall with the most positive adult figure in my life, being punished on only three occasions. They were instances where the behavior being punished was dangerous ie: setting the neighbor's lawn on fire, playing with a gun, etc. Because the punishment was so rare, it had a very profound impact on me, and I had no fear of my grandfather ever. Additionally, I think the studies on this issue vary. Time-outs are punishment, but the majority of child experts I know support them to teach children to learn self-control. Punishment is sometimes a necessary evil with children that are still learning behavior modification. One would hope that adults are past that point and I would argue that if you find one that isn't, they aren't ready for a relationship and a Dom makes one hell of a pisspoor psychologist/therapist. I will ignore, for the moment the idea about punishment and children, I have mixed feelings about it myself, and instead focus on what you said about adults here as this is what I want to concentrate on in this thread. In the instance of guilt relief, well it isn’t really "punishment" its catharsis, the real punishment would be for the Dom to do nothing at all and allow the sub to stew in their guilt. In these cases the act of spanking, or whatever is used, is actually a mercy.

KariCloud -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 11:12:32 AM)
For me, punishment serves a useful purpose. It is not, though "punishment" in the terms that most child development specialists accept. I've studied the subject enough to understand how ineffective punishment actually is, generally, for both adults and children. What I'm talking about is different, though. For me, it is a marker that I can't fail to understand. Does a person really mean no, every time they say it? Nope. And in fact, the vast majority of people I've known in my life draw arbitrary lines in the sand and don't enforce them and don't actually care about said lines. How am I supposed to know if a person means what they say, if they continually say things they don't mean? Words are relatively void of meaning on their own for most people, a "no" means something different in every situation. While a lot of people can tell what people's words mean by context, tone of voice, body posture, facial expression, or whatever, I can't. I only hear and see the words. This is why I get so confused when word definitions are too broad to make sense without the rest of the communication, which I am blind to. (And yes, online typed communication is a heck of a lot easier for me!) My two partners do mean no when they say it. Since it took me 22 years of learning that people don't mean what they say, I doubt I will revert to accepting that these two people mean what they say any time soon. To expect me to change to so drastically, so quickly, is unrealistic. So, punishment from them is a marker, to me. It says "yes, this is a real line. No, you may not cross it. And yes, we are serious." I feel a lot more comfortable in a D/s relationship when there are clearly defined limits and rules, and clearly defined consequences. For me, it works. Which is a good thing, since that's the dynamic they've set up. :D I like it, I like the way they handle me, and it has so far worked well.

DesFIP -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 12:01:19 PM)
Unlike the copepod, I find it easier to believe what someone says. If it turns out they didn't mean it, then they learn to speak for clearly for the next time. I accept a no or a yes, and allow them to learn from getting what they said they wanted. But I think being hoisted on your own petard serves you right. People who say yes and mean no or vice versa are passive aggressive at best. I have no desire to engage with them. You make your bed, you lie in it. Not my problem.

KariCloud -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 1:13:16 PM)
I didn't see it as passive-aggressive so much as either outright laziness and lack of caring, or lack of seriousness. I have noticed that most people don't have a hard time with this, and that what I see as "not meaning what you say" often gets seen by others as a "lack of seriousness". People often say "I'm serious" when they don't mean it, which doesn't help any. From what I can tell, the lack of seriousness is conveyed in the non-verbal communication bits that I don't see. Lots of people say a whole lot of things that they don't mean, without being passive-aggressive. It's mostly an ingrained part of at least American culture. I just have a hard time with such distinctions. So making it very clear through a punishment dynamic helps me understand what is going on. That's why I call it a marker rather than a behavior deterrent.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 1:17:10 PM)
quote: So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? 1. punishment may be something the submissive needs for her own inner psychological balance.... clears the air, gives her a chance for "penance" etc. 2. It is for fun sometimes 3. It seems the easiest way to deal with a problem Punishment is something i do not need

LadyCimarron -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 1:20:48 PM)
I don't think punishment in and of itself is a good to to correct either. I also don't beleive that most people in this dynamic believe that either. Some may call it correction, but I bet you would probably be hard pressed to find a sub who says they obey and follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment. Most obey because they want to please their Dom/me. Punishement in many relationships are used as a consequence rather than a correction. While some subs may feel the need to be punished within the dynamics of a D/s relationship, I doubt if most feel a need to be punished as a free thinking adult. And let's remember that a dominant can only punish if a sub has agreed to that dynamic. Most subs who agree to it do so because they think it helps them. If they believe it is helpful to them....maybe it is.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 1:54:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave If there is one thing that I have learned through attaining my undergrad in psychology and the subsequent classes taken in behaviorism for my masters and admission into ABAI (not to mention the hours of in field training and on the job experience), is that punishment, as a corrective measure, deterrent or teaching tool, does not work in the way it is intended. You see, this is very interesting. I have experience with training both humans and dogs, and I can attest to both being fairly responsive to punishment, if it's delivered rationally and consistently for a specific unwanted behavior. Articles by professionals and their sales disciples insist that shock collars don't (or to be more apropos, shouldn't) work on dogs—yet I've found otherwise, both short-term and long-term. The key to punishment is not overdoing it or underdoing it, and remembering to be consistent to get your point across. As for humans, this line you wrote was key: I know there are many subs on here that have said they are punished infrequently and when they are they never repeat this infraction. These subs, I have found, are usually the ones that have the intrinsic need to behave already within them. To this I say of course; a slave without an intrinsic need to behave isn't worth the trouble of having around in the first place. Weather she needs the punishment or not is up to the individuals involved in the dynamic; not the ABAI or the DSM, the DSS or the DCFS. Some feel internally sick and disgusted with themselves for having committed an infraction, and feel punishment is a needed act of contrition—an expression of a desire to submit and apologize with the flesh. That said, "intent" of punishment can't be so easily assumed. Who says this type of scenario isn't working as intended? Who says intent is only coming from one side of the dynamic? Who says a Mistress who chooses to whip her slave for not dusting the furniture well enough isn't going to have less dust in her house for now on? Who says she can't use both positive and negative reinforcement successfully to steer her boy in the right direction? Using solely negative or solely positive reinforcement without anything else isn't going to work. A running process can't be understood by plucking out one of its components for study as representation of the whole in motion; it must be seen as part of a greater system, and only when functioning within it alongside other methods will it be understood. Edited to correct conflated terminology.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:01:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? 1. punishment may be something the submissive needs for her own inner psychological balance.... clears the air, gives her a chance for "penance" etc. 2. It is for fun sometimes 3. It seems the easiest way to deal with a problem Punishment is something i do not need #1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom. #2) funishment, not the same thing #3) the easy road is not always, or even usually the best way to deal with things. Relationships take work, there are no short cuts.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:03:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I don't think punishment in and of itself is a good to to correct either. I also don't beleive that most people in this dynamic believe that either. Some may call it correction, but I bet you would probably be hard pressed to find a sub who says they obey and follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment. Most obey because they want to please their Dom/me. Punishement in many relationships are used as a consequence rather than a correction. While some subs may feel the need to be punished within the dynamics of a D/s relationship, I doubt if most feel a need to be punished as a free thinking adult. And let's remember that a dominant can only punish if a sub has agreed to that dynamic. Most subs who agree to it do so because they think it helps them. If they believe it is helpful to them....maybe it is. Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction.

DarlingSavage -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:17:30 PM)
I don't think I need anyone punishing me or telling me what to do, for that matter, unless it's in the name of sex and a little roleplay, then, I'm all for it. I like the idea of being caught doing something very naughty and "getting into trouble". I can't think of anything more exciting. I do like to please people, but it depends on the person. However, I don't think another person could or should run my life for me or make my decisions for me. I've met people on here that would want to tell me what to wear all the time. I'd have to see what their taste was like first. I'm very picky. I have a unique sense of fashion and I'm very proud of the way I dress. I'm not gonna just hand that over to some idiot, cause he thinks he wants to have that much control over me.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:18:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave If there is one thing that I have learned through attaining my undergrad in psychology and the subsequent classes taken in behaviorism for my masters and admission into ABAI (not to mention the hours of in field training and on the job experience), is that punishment, as a corrective measure, deterrent or teaching tool, does not work in the way it is intended. You see, this is very interesting. I have experience with training both humans and dogs, and I can attest to both being fairly responsive to negative reinforcement, if it's delivered rationally and consistently for a specific unwanted behavior. Articles by professionals and their sales disciples insist that shock collars don't (or to be more apropos, shouldn't) work on dogs—yet I've found otherwise, both short-term and long-term. The key to punishment is not overdoing it or underdoing it, and remembering to be consistent to get your point across. As for humans, this line you wrote was key: I know there are many subs on here that have said they are punished infrequently and when they are they never repeat this infraction. These subs, I have found, are usually the ones that have the intrinsic need to behave already within them. To this I say of course; a slave without an intrinsic need to behave isn't worth the trouble of having around in the first place. Weather she needs the punishment or not is up to the individuals involved in the dynamic; not the ABAI or the DSM, the DSS or the DCFS. Some feel internally sick and disgusted with themselves for having committed an infraction, and feel punishment is a needed act of contrition—an expression of a desire to submit and apologize with the flesh. That said, "intent" of punishment can't be so easily assumed. Who says this type of scenario isn't working as intended? Who says intent is only coming from one side of the dynamic? Who says a Mistress who chooses to whip her slave for not dusting the furniture well enough isn't going to have less dust in her house for now on? Who says she can't use both positive and negative reinforcement successfully to steer her boy in the right direction? Using solely negative or solely positive reinforcement without anything else isn't going to work. A running process can't be understood by plucking out one of its components for study as representation of the whole in motion; it must be seen as part of a greater system, and only when functioning within it alongside other methods will it be understood. You make interesting arguments here, however I wanted to point out... and sorry for being nitpicky, but you have your terminology wrong here. Negative reinforcement and punishment is not the same thing. It is tricky and confusing because the word negative gives the wrong idea to people who dont know better. Negative reinforcement is taking away a non desired activity in way of reinforcing a behavior... Let’s say it is my chore to clean the dishes, and I HATE cleaning the dishes and I also really dont like vacuuming, you want me to vacuumed more than you want me to do the dishes, I do a really good job vacuuming and you tell me I dont have to do the dishes. Taking away the chore of having to do the dishes because I vacuumed is negative reinforcement for the activity of vacuuming. I hope that makes sense because I found the entire thing really confusing myself when I first learned about it. As far as the shock collars on the dogs... I really hope I dont need to point at that humans are not dogs. the psychology, though not entirely alien, is nowhere near the same as humans, and I dont completely buy that the shocking does more than scare the dog and condition them with fear not to do whatever it is you dont want them to do. You are far better off, when training a dog to offer the dog a treat for doing what it is you want instead of shocking them for doing what it is you do not want.

KariCloud -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:19:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction. That's not how I've seen punishment defined, in any context. From my understanding of it, punishment is deliberately done and in direct relation to the infraction. Good, useful punishment is that which is known in advance, as a direct consequence of specific actions. Random "punishments" aren't punishments at all. - Edited to add: in all my child development classes that discussed behavior modification and punishments, nowhere have I ever seen punishment described as you have. I also have never heard of "positive reward" methods by themselves being any more successful or useful in behavior modification either in children, adults, or dogs.- Punishment by itself is not a useful way of modifying behavior, I believe. But it has it's uses elsewhere as, like LadyCimmaron described, a consequence of actions. It isn't what I'd call a deterrent, and I think that's where traditional ideas on punishment fall flat. But it is useful as a consequence of undesirable behavior. The person has to want to be good though, or it is all a waste of time. Even a child cannot be forced to be good if they don't want to be.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:27:26 PM)
quote: #1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom. You can see it anyway you like, the fact is that I can remember as a child when i did something wrong wanting to be punished for it... my mom said sometimes a spanking cleared the air (although I was not punished this way). Now punishment may provide catharsis, but it is still punishment.... quote: #2) funishment, not the same thing Again sometimes people have relationships we do not understand, and to them they get off on punishment that is not role playing... is this healthy? Well, it wouldn't be for me, but hey, just because it isn't my kink does not make it wrong quote: #3) the easy road is not always, or even usually the best way to deal with things. Relationships take work, there are no short cuts. Notice I said it "seems" to be the easiest way, I did not say it was[;)]

leadership527 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:27:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? Negative modifiers work. That's why people use them. Yes, there are some significant downsides and so savvy leaders use them sparingly, but there is a time and a place. For me, that time & place typically comes down to when some behavior pattern absolutely, positively must change RIGHT NOW. I have yet to encounter one of those situations with Carol and I don't think I'm likely to so we don't do the punishment gig. In the absence of such need, I prefer to not pay the price tags that go along with punishment.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:29:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KariCloud quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction. That's not how I've seen punishment defined, in any context. From my understanding of it, punishment is deliberately done and in direct relation to the infraction. Good, useful punishment is that which is known in advance, as a direct consequence of specific actions. Random "punishments" aren't punishments at all. - Edited to add: in all my child development classes that discussed behavior modification and punishments, nowhere have I ever seen punishment described as you have. I also have never heard of "positive reward" methods by themselves being any more successful or useful in behavior modification either in children, adults, or dogs.- Punishment by itself is not a useful way of modifying behavior, I believe. But it has it's uses elsewhere as, like LadyCimmaron described, a consequence of actions. It isn't what I'd call a deterrent, and I think that's where traditional ideas on punishment fall flat. But it is useful as a consequence of undesirable behavior. The person has to want to be good though, or it is all a waste of time. Even a child cannot be forced to be good if they don't want to be. How, in any way shape of form, is spanking a natural consiquence for anything... Punishment and consequenses are NOT the same thing. A Consequence for lying is that people don't trust you and do not want to have relationships with you. This is natural and what one would understand is a direct result of their actions. A spanking... well that is something added, a punisher.

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