RE: Punishment, the wrong idea?

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MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:32:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Rienforcment is a possative action punishment is negative. To put it a little more clearly and to avoid further confusion, I'd put it this way: positive and negative reinforcement builds or strengthens a desired behavior; punishment weakens a behavior. That said, none of the operant conditionings are panaceas on their own for all situations. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave We all rienforce each other on a certain level without even knowing it. We also inhibit and subvert each other too without knowing it. Sometimes we do none of the above. My question to you remains, however: are you a fan of negative reinforcement? I just had this entire thing typed out and my computer ate it, so now I’ll try again… GRR… Okay, yes I am a in favor of negative reinforcement, but again, I think you have gotten the meaning of negative reinforcement confused. Despite what the name implies, negative reinforcement is not, in fact, negative in nature. It is simply called negative because it is the removal of something unwanted in way of reinforcing. The removal being the negative part, but since it is the removal of something unwanted it is actually a positive thing. Positive reinforcement is the adding of something wanted in way of reinforcing. Punishment is pretty much the opposite of reinforcement, the adding of something unwanted (like a spanking) or taking away of something wanted (like being grounded from reading.) That being said, I don’t know 100%, what it is I am a ‘fan’ of. It is my opinion that a diet of JUST punishment, could be harmful, that too much punishment, could be harmful, but I cannot deny the fact that, for some people, punishment works and is wanted. I just never really understood the why. I do understand that feeling punished can be cathartic, but then, to me that turns punishment into something else entirely. In these cases I feel that NOT being punished would be more of a punishment. Leaving the person the stew in their own guilt and such, is far more harmful and far more a punishment than any grounding or spanking could ever be. You know, something just occurred to me as I was typing this up for the second time… If punishment is something craved and wanted, maybe then, it is not punishment but a reinforcer instead? If the punishment is the adding of something unwanted or the taking away of something wanted, but people actually WANT the punishment, than wouldn’t it be a reinforcer instead? I think I answered my own question here… Does it make any sense to anyone but me?

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:35:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave I am not trashing anyone. I am just curious because all I have learned in my education negates all that I have heard and learned here. Magik, Taken at face value, that statement covers a lot of ground, Magik (assuming your post count is indicative of your reading count). Could you itemize in general what things you've learned in your former psyche education that dispels "what you've learned here"? Thus far, I know you feel punishment isn't productive. Anything else?

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:52:50 PM)
quote: Personally that confuses me how a D/s realtionship works with no punishment dynamic in place. This would work well in a relationship in which people naturally gravitated towards certain roles of one party leading the relationship and the other desiring to follow. It is the only sort of D/s dynamic I would seek in that the dominant that I followed would have to be such a man that I respected his lead and his direction to the point that even if I questioned it in my head I would follow. Such a man would see punishment as antithetical to the growing of my respect and desire to follow, as I am a fairly level headed good decision maker. In essence I have been around for 42 years, if someone couldn't impress upon me the logic of following them, I probably never would have desired to in the first place. If they make some seriously bad judgment calls and following them has led to bad repercussions, I would probably stop doing so. Just like if I wasn't following enough, the man I would desire wouldn't keep me around either...I think punishment, and this is just for me, negates the mutual respect we would have for each other as capable, wise adults. A man that couldn't see that I desire to follow him wouldn't have me... Like I said, I understand why people get into a dynamic with punishment because I tried to understand it. I wanted to understand it and respect it.... hopefully this answer will help you understand why some people wouldn't flourish in a dynamic that has punishment. But I do not think of myself as a "lifestyle" submissive so much as a person that wants a life with a man that I can respect to take charge and to be in command....

KariCloud -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 2:14:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Punishment is pretty much the opposite of reinforcement, the adding of something unwanted (like a spanking) or taking away of something wanted (like being grounded from reading.) That being said, I don’t know 100%, what it is I am a ‘fan’ of. It is my opinion that a diet of JUST punishment, could be harmful, that too much punishment, could be harmful, but I cannot deny the fact that, for some people, punishment works and is wanted. I just never really understood the why. I do understand that feeling punished can be cathartic, but then, to me that turns punishment into something else entirely. In these cases I feel that NOT being punished would be more of a punishment. Leaving the person the stew in their own guilt and such, is far more harmful and far more a punishment than any grounding or spanking could ever be. You know, something just occurred to me as I was typing this up for the second time… If punishment is something craved and wanted, maybe then, it is not punishment but a reinforcer instead? If the punishment is the adding of something unwanted or the taking away of something wanted, but people actually WANT the punishment, than wouldn’t it be a reinforcer instead? I think I answered my own question here… Does it make any sense to anyone but me? What I get from what you wrote above is that your idea of punishment is painful/harmful, something that hurts and is upsetting. Is this accurate to what you think? There are a lot of things you exclude as not being punishment that leaves me wondering if there's anything besides unwanted physical pain that you consider to be punishment? What I was taught in my child development classes is a much broader definition of punishment, and I think it is a lot more useful than the one it appears you have. For one, it's easier to incorporate effective punishment into a system and have it be useful and good. It also makes understanding the non-clinical use of the word punishment easier. I guess I'm wondering why you are being so fussy about what is and isn't punishment, in the context of the discussion. I don't see the usefulness of it, since just about everything others have mentioned, you've rejected as not being what you consider punishment. You even did that to yourself, in the post I quoted above. So I don't understand, are you trying to say that nothing we do is "real" punishment based on your definition? Would that satisfy you? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm honestly trying to understand what you're getting at. It isn't making sense to me.

LadyCimarron -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 2:27:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania This would work well in a relationship in which people naturally gravitated towards certain roles of one party leading the relationship and the other desiring to follow. It is the only sort of D/s dynamic I would seek in that the dominant that I followed would have to be such a man that I respected his lead and his direction to the point that even if I questioned it in my head I would follow. Such a man would see punishment as antithetical to the growing of my respect and desire to follow, as I am a fairly level headed good decision maker. In essence I have been around for 42 years, if someone couldn't impress upon me the logic of following them, I probably never would have desired to in the first place. If they make some seriously bad judgment calls and following them has led to bad repercussions, I would probably stop doing so. Just like if I wasn't following enough, the man I would desire wouldn't keep me around either...I think punishment, and this is just for me, negates the mutual respect we would have for each other as capable, wise adults. A man that couldn't see that I desire to follow him wouldn't have me... Like I said, I understand why people get into a dynamic with punishment because I tried to understand it. I wanted to understand it and respect it.... hopefully this answer will help you understand why some people wouldn't flourish in a dynamic that has punishment. But I do not think of myself as a "lifestyle" submissive so much as a person that wants a life with a man that I can respect to take charge and to be in command.... Very well articulated and I get it; but what happens when you don't follow him? Not because you don't trust or don't respect him, but because you are a free thinking human being who sometimes just follows her own mind? It has to happen once in awhile right; either by accident or intent? So do you just talk it out and trust that there will be no resentment on his part and likewise no guilty feelings on your part? It is very easy to say "forgive and forget" but it seems there is a certain part of human nature that wants to see people pay for their wrongdoing and, to some extent, I think most people want to pay some kind of price when they screw up.

IronBear -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 3:59:36 PM)
I think that one of the aspects worthy of considering when looking at punishment is the was it is carried out, when it is carried out and the context it is carried out. For my part I completely believe that there is no harm done with giving a child a swat on the bot or a swift boot in the bum. I do however draw the line with as smack over the ears (Seen far too many cases where this has caused hearing impairment) and again the confusion and the psychological damage later on because of a thrashing where no reason was given and the offender was not allowed to explain his side of the story. For this reason I will always endeavour to explain to the perpetrator what has gone wrong and why I am annoyed or disappointed with them. It may well be they need some further instruction or retraining or it may be simply their punishment is additional chores. It is not my nature to cane, beat or whip for punishment and prefer to leave that for play situations. Having said that, I also differentiate between punishment of someone in my home and dealing with a violent, abusive person or a thief who is in effect attacking me or mine. Although if one stretched the punishment label, I am simply administering both judgement and punishment when the law either is unable to or won't. One just takes care to leave minimal marks on the perpetrator so as not to give the law too much evidence to bring charges or a law suit. Even in the worst cases with a slave them final punishment is permanant banishment with that person being considered dead to the rest of us.. I have to be pushed might hard to resort to violence. Interestingly enough, punishment was the subject at a recent seminar I attended and spoke at. It was most interesting to find then even some, who I am usually at the other end of the spectrum from, agreed with what I said which is in effect what I nave posted in an earlier post and here. We all tended to agree and this applies to sub/slaves too although that was not discussed...Yet.. That ideally the punishment should fit the crime which in a surprising amount of times the culprit understands and often agrees that it is just.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 5:08:08 PM)
quote: Very well articulated and I get it; but what happens when you don't follow him? Not because you don't trust or don't respect him, but because you are a free thinking human being who sometimes just follows her own mind? It has to happen once in awhile right; either by accident or intent? So do you just talk it out and trust that there will be no resentment on his part and likewise no guilty feelings on your part? It is very easy to say "forgive and forget" but it seems there is a certain part of human nature that wants to see people pay for their wrongdoing and, to some extent, I think most people want to pay some kind of price when they screw up. We talk it out, and if he is the type of person I want to be with, he realizes I have my own mind and doesn't feel that the one that rules often rules best. In other words he isn't into micromanaging me and I get to know how he likes things and try to make him happy. I am not into a relationship that is highly ritualized, etc. I will tell you this, I want a man that knows his mind and lets his mind be known on the big stuff, so I don't have to wonder... meaning we live where he wants, we eat the way he likes, we go where he likes if he has a preference,... someone has to be the ruler and someone else has to be ruled. I suppose if it got to be an impasse because we had different ideas of what we wanted, that would mean we were no longer compatible? Just like in any other relationship. I also respect men that take the needs and desires of their mates into account during the decision making process, ask for information, opinions, etc. I have a mind, it should be his to use as he sees fit, his asset. I do not know if that makes sense

LadyCimarron -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 5:49:31 PM)
Julia, you express yourself well. I really do see how that works. It really is a matter of personal preference. I, just the opposite of you, am into a relationship that is very ritualized and I rather like micromanaging. I seek out men who desire to defer to me in virtually every decision big and small and I don't even consider a sub who does not accept punishment as part of the relationship. That is part of the dynamic I desire as a sadist and disciplinarian and I don't compromise on that. While I respect my partners opinions, wisdom and input on everything, the final decision rests with me. Perhaps this is why I seek out potential partners who identify as slaves rather than subs. Thank you very much for sharing. I was not really seeking a response to what I posted on not understanding non-punishment, but you have really enlightened me.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 6:03:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Despite what the name implies, negative reinforcement is not, in fact, negative in nature. Except of course when there is a negative stimuli or condition that is placed in order to remove it for positive effect, as in the vacuum and dishes scenario you described, or in a repeatedly shocked rat that only finds relief until it presses, say, a conspicuous blue button. A Master or Mistress taking away one imposed pressure or ordeal to help the slave accept other imposed pressures or ordeals—to the effect of a "positive" impression—is just as controling as beating a slave for an infraction, although more of a manipulative roundabout. A Master can "rescue" a girl from her abusive husband or family and give her a lifetime of romanticized servitude replete with its own form of abuse in a new home, all to his own ultimate gain, of course. Negative reinforcement needn't have a negative nature in common everyday examples, but it can be negative if it purposefully uses negative stimuli by default to be modified for a "positive" effect, like constantly nagging someone or giving the silent treatment until they do something you want. I'd say overall that's NR via manipulation using negativity until a desired behavior occurs. As an aside, I usually prefer operating in terms of reinforcing a behavior or eliminating/reducing a behavior, though I would contend there is a subtle duality present even there. When you punish a behavior, you in theory reinforce its opposite behavior via the subject's deductive reasoning. That's not the clinically "correct" way of looking at punishment, but it has worked for and on me. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave It is my opinion that a diet of JUST punishment, could be harmful. Agreed. Taking the holistic approach to training and discipline is somewhat like a Swiss army knife, whereas steady use of punishment with little else is more like a sawzall; effective for some things, but not good for the finer finishing work. Generally, training methods use mixed strategies, weather people know anything about OC or not. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave If the punishment is the adding of something unwanted or the taking away of something wanted, but people actually WANT the punishment, than wouldn’t it be a reinforcer instead? For those who see punishment as a "kink" because they are mental or physical masochists, yes. It's for this reason the slaves I sought were not strongly self-identified as pain junkies or psychodramaticists; I didn't want the desire for abuse or psychodrama to subvert my authority or the bigger picture. Not getting into the distinctions between punishment and the psychological pleasures of habitual conditioning, the M/s I know finds a would-be slave seeking to serve, not looking to be punished just for the sake of the experience, though the slave does desire to be punished if he or she is displeasing, and finds the punishment provides psychological benefit for the dynamic as a whole. In short, they don't want the punishment itself on one level, but find it desirable overall on another. It's important to remember that catharsis is not synonymous with reinforcement in terms of punishment.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 6:09:50 PM)
quote: While I respect my partners opinions, wisdom and input on everything, the final decision rests with me. I respect someone who respects my mind, if after weighing it out, he decides it is better to go another way, I will follow..... but there is responsibility with that, if it turns out I am right, he just lost points in my eyes. It is not that I want to feel that, it just is my natural inclination, and unfortunately I have experienced it... quote: Thank you very much for sharing. I was not really seeking a response to what I posted on not understanding non-punishment, but you have really enlightened me. I come here to be enlightened, and I have been many many times. I love trying to see how other people live, even if I wouldn't choose that life for myself... I really appreciate this interchange! Thank you for it!

ranja -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 3:41:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave You know, something just occurred to me as I was typing this up for the second time… If punishment is something craved and wanted, maybe then, it is not punishment but a reinforcer instead? If the punishment is the adding of something unwanted or the taking away of something wanted, but people actually WANT the punishment, than wouldn’t it be a reinforcer instead? I think I answered my own question here… Does it make any sense to anyone but me? There are different situations for punishment Between my Husband and me... but this is the most occurring one... maybe this is more a reaction or management than punishment, but it works for us: example: So we have a conversation and we do not agree... He is not much of a talker, so i end up making my point several times over, in an effort to explain myself or convince Him... in the process i lose sight of Him, sort of racing along on my own train.... He starts to get really totally annoyed by my (what He considers pointless) nagging... Then there might be a point that anything He would say would result in a full blown argument between us, because He is not so very 'delicate' with words, i would take offence.. . The quickest way to stop this crash is to get me out of my selfish mindset, and my focus back on Him physically... a short sharp dose of pain does exactly this... it has me shut up and reconsider my behaviour, my tone... it puts me back in my place... and when i am back in my place we can relate properly again. Sometimes He has ordered me to shut up and i have managed to obey... but it is so difficult... if i am not allowed to talk i feel totally stuck inside my own head... it is much worse... i like the short pain much better... so i need this, He likes to be in charge like this, it works for us

lally2 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 4:41:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave You know, something just occurred to me as I was typing this up for the second time… If punishment is something craved and wanted, maybe then, it is not punishment but a reinforcer instead? If the punishment is the adding of something unwanted or the taking away of something wanted, but people actually WANT the punishment, than wouldn’t it be a reinforcer instead? I think I answered my own question here… Does it make any sense to anyone but me? i think WANT is a bit strong [:D] lol, but on some level there is a need - for some. for me there is no question of craving or wanting and id doubt there are many who would say they feel that. but as a need to be nudged back into their place from time to time, yes. for me, when it has happened its really been about taking the 'crime' away - when a criminal has served his time he leaves feeling he has paid his dues and the slate is clear, he can start again. thats really how i see it anyway the point is though, that it isnt driven entirely by the Dominant - by that i mean, if theres to be punishment and the Dominant says so at the start of the relationship, the sub who enters in, is by dint of entering in, accepting that, submitting to that and must on some level recognise it as something they 'need', or they wouldnt go there. additionally - and we're not talking punishment dynamic here at all, but a Ds or Ms relationship with punishment as part of the whole - a sub or slave who pushes their parameters knows full well they are pushing their parameters. when they do something to incur punishment they must know that they are - therefore maybe, to some extent or another, being put back in their place is something they need in the end we are talking about concensual adult relationships here - ironically enough))

lally2 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 4:52:52 AM)
by the way Magik - thanks for this thread, its helped me to realise a couple of things for myself. x

CaringandReal -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 4:55:13 AM)
quote: You know, something just occurred to me as I was typing this up for the second time… If punishment is something craved and wanted, maybe then, it is not punishment but a reinforcer instead? If the punishment is the adding of something unwanted or the taking away of something wanted, but people actually WANT the punishment, than wouldn’t it be a reinforcer instead? Not in my experience, and I think this is because my desire for or enjoyment of the punishment is never 'pure." It's mixed with a lot of unhappiness and unpleasantness. Certain aspects of the punishment (erotic arousal, the feelings of confinement and inevitibility, which I fetishize, reassurance of the power dynamic and structure) all are very nice, but these are side effects and they also frequently arise from non-punishment situations. When punishment is successful, the pain, deprivation, displesaure at my behavior, guilt or remorse, all of that hurts more than the perks I get from being punished. Punishment isn't something to be avoided or only applied during politicaly correct erotic scenarios, IMO. Pain, whether physical or mental, is a marvelous teacher, perhaps the greatest, and sometimes is the only way by which someone can learn and make their lives better. We all try to avoid it, of course, as it hurts, but to avoid inflicting punishment in a relationship whose long-term happiness depends upon one person faithfully obeying the other seems foolish to me. A little punishment administered now and then, or even frequently, where appropriate, can prevent much worse things in the long run, such as breakup of the relationship because the submissive becomes obstreperous or overbearing due to experiencing no consequences for his or her actions.

txurinal -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 7:08:50 AM)
When my MASTERS punished me, it was for a specific infraction. As the slave received discipline on a regular basis, punishment rarely involved "spanking". My MASTERS felt it was important for the slave to realize what it had done wrong and to learn from its mistake in order not to repeat it In my case, punishment meant that something would be taken away or something would be different so that the slave would be refocused on why it was happening. slave would be required to write 1000 times it is sorry for the infraction and will not do it again. slave could be sent to bed without being fed. the worst punishment for this slave was being chained in the garage for the night. Nothing like a long, uncomfortable night to make it think about what it did wrong in this slave's case, the punishment helped it learn and was appreciated as it made it less likely to displeasein the future

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 7:09:47 AM)
quote: but it seems there is a certain part of human nature that wants to see people pay for their wrongdoing and, to some extent, I think most people want to pay some kind of price when they screw up. While I understand what you're saying, the perspective you speak of above is the perspective of a person who would, naturally, gravitate towards a punishment dynamic. In our household, we have a full complement of 'free thinkers'. In fact, the capacity to think for oneself is a requirement for full membership. While we have -had- servants who have chosen to yield -everything- to the House and its Keepers, even then they retain the right to walk away. When one of those in our household who has yielded authority behaves in a way that went counter to our expectations, if it is an accident, I re-educate, reiterate and clarify expectations, and/or re-assign to a more suitable set of duties -- all without resentment or any desire to see that person "pay" for the mistake. If it is intentional but persistent, I ask whether or not that yielding is what xhe truly wants -- if not, xhe's welcome to reclaim hir authority, no harm, no foul. Chances are pretty good that if we're all honest with one another, there's even still going to be a comfortable place in the House for hir. If xhe does want to yield authority, it may be as simple as xhe's not in a -situation- where xhe feels able to yield... which happens sometimes too... someone is a perfectly capable and forthright individual who knows what xhe wants, and enters into the situation in good faith, only to find that it isn't the right place or the right time or the right person /people xhe's involved with. Again, I handle these, as a Keeper, with good grace, often even helping the individual to find a more... amenable situation. Sometimes, the other situation is available right in our household. In fact, the fact that I -don't- use punishment is one way that we sort of "divvy up" the servants in the household over time... the ones who thrive on a punishment dynamic end up with one of the Keepers who thrives that way as well -- the others... well, they end up with me or with Phantom or with one of the Keepers who tends to have an... organic and discipline-oriented style rather than a punishment style. Sometimes, the House itself is the problem -- while this person really wants to yield, what we represent as a collective is just not the right environment. Xhe doesn't feel secure enough to really let go. I'm fine with this, and even those among us who are punishment oriented are fine with sending one of these submissive individuals to -me-, Phantom, or one of those who -don't- feel resentment or a need to make the person -pay- for just not fitting in well, and who can help hir to find a more suitable position elsewhere in the community. Occasionally, you'll find someone who doesn't really want to yield, but who gets kicks in stirring up a household and being... well.. an asshat (gosh, I like that term! Thanks to whomever here used it where I got to see it!!!) These folks occasionally come in promoting the idea that they're submissive individuals ready to yield (sometimes they come in as dominant individuals, but we're not discussing that group ATM), only to discover that what they -really- want is to be as disobedient as possible to see if they can get a rise out of someone and make the other servants do more work and create more stress in the household through defiance and disarray... These folks -do- get what some would consider to be a "punishment" from us -- they're asked to leave the House and not let the door hit them on the ass on the way out. However, in the context of the realization that they didn't really want to -participate- in the House anyway, and didn't really yield authority in any case, I don't consider that "punishment" -- just protecting my household from jackasses and jerks. So for me, it is completely possible to enjoy both life and authority-based dynamics without making someone "pay" for errors or mistakes -- and the people that I interact with usually do just fine with accepting responsibility for their errors without any need for me to impose "punishments" to allay their bad feelings. Informationally, our household is split about 70/30 punishment vs. non-punishment dynamics... so even though we're a much smaller proportion, it definitely isn't a complete anomaly.. Calla

porcelaine -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 9:08:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW the ones who thrive on a punishment dynamic end up with one of the Keepers who thrives that way as well -- the others... well, they end up with me or with Phantom or with one of the Keepers who tends to have an... organic and discipline-oriented style rather than a punishment style. So for me, it is completely possible to enjoy both life and authority-based dynamics without making someone "pay" for errors or mistakes -- and the people that I interact with usually do just fine with accepting responsibility for their errors without any need for me to impose "punishments" to allay their bad feelings. Calla, I really enjoyed your points, in particular the portion in bold and I appreciate your perspective on the subject. Your opening remarks relating to how the pairings occur in terms of ones affinity for or against punishment align with my own. I'd be hard pressed to partner with anyone that couldn't address issues without that form of corrective method being employed. I'm especially appreciative of the organic approach as referenced and believe my study and experiences relating to mindfulness, attachment, and other Eastern teachings have heavily influenced my stance. There are noted exceptions that simply don't require that form of readjustment that are capable of being realigned in other ways. An astute owner recognizes this and makes the appropriate alteration to their approach. Thank you again. ~porcelaine

Andalusite -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/17/2010 11:35:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPactI have nothing against those who say that a punishment dynamic is not for them and they have reasons A, B, and C. I think it's great. Everybody should know what is right or wrong for them. Yet, consistently, those of us who use punishment within the dynamic come on several threads at a time (because we can't just have one) to say that a punishment dynamic yields the result that we wish to obtain. It's as though they want to beat into the ground that because it doesn't work for them, it shouldn't work for us either. I sometimes joke that "spankings are for good subbies," but I don't have any problem with other people using punishment in their dynamics. A lot of people here seem to take "this won't work for me because I would feel this way about it" to mean that "nobody should do this because it will make everyone feel this way about it." I know this came up in the "one strike" thread, even though I tried to clarify that it's not what I want or what works for me, but that other people are free to use it with their partners or prospective partners. [FR - not specifically to LP] My former Master never felt the need to punish me at all, and the Dominant I served before him only punished me twice in the course of a 3 year relationship, so it rarely came up, although both had the authority to punish me if they felt it was necessary. When I was physically punished the second time, I was masochistic enough, or it pushed the right buttons, to make me enjoy it on some level. He was serious about it, but it had an element of "funishment" like Ranja described. I told him I was getting aroused, and he said that was ok, but I felt guilty about it. The next few times we played, I would feel overcome with guilt and feel miserable whenever he hurt me and I enjoyed it. That obviously wasn't what he wanted me to get out of it, and after pushing through the tears and feeling guilty, I was eventually able to enjoy pain play again. For me, getting hurt in ways that I don't like is all tied up in my submission and masochism. I'm also concerned that if it hurts me enough to really be a physical "too much" punishment, I could easily fear him or the whip. If I were punished over something minor, I would feel more guilty after being punished, not less, since on some level, I'd feel that if he felt the need to punish me, that it was a horrible major thing and I'm a bad person for doing it, not just "ok, I won't do that again!" The punishment dynamics that IB or txurinal describe would probably work much more effectively for me, without some of the emotional minefields and unpredictable results. It's not that physical punishment is a hard limit, I'm just worried that it could easily cause problems in the relationship, and neither of us would know until afterward. So, when a punishment thread comes up, I tend to express those concerns. While my former Master and I were dating, before I became his slave, I expressed those concerns to him. He felt that he could come up with suitable punishments that weren't physical, if needed. I am curious for those of you who do require physical punishment, how you handle it if someone fears you or the tool you used or feels more guilty afterward? I've seen several people say that after punishment, it's over, and wondered if they mean that the slave or submissive is expected to no longer feel upset or guilty immediately? Especially when they want sex right afterward, that seems like a huge emotional shift to me.

reynardfox -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/18/2010 12:17:51 AM)
Why? In the name of God would an adult look to correct another adults behaviour? Can you even imagine having so little going on in your life, such a dearth of stimulous or such time stretching, brain numbing utter boredom that the thought would honestly strike you? This is about sex, for therapy you need to find professionals

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/18/2010 6:40:38 AM)
quote: Why? In the name of God would an adult look to correct another adults behaviour? Now I have to say that adults correct other adults' behavior ALL THE TIME! Late for work? You can bet that behavior will be 'corrected'. Missed a bill payment? Well that will be 'corrected' too. Skipped the dishes? If you live with another person, eventually -someone- is going to 'correct' that behavior... if not the roommate/partner, then eventually the Health Department.... The question isn't about whether or not we correct another adult's behavior. We -all- do that (and yes, even individuals on the "kneel" side of the equation correct behaviors in their companions on the other side of the kneel -- it is typically just a MUCH more subtle process!!!) The question at hand deals with the "How" of correction... do the authority-holding partners correct using punishment as a tool, or do they use other options? Do the authority-yielding partners seek punishment in their dynamics, or do the prefer alternative means of correcting their mistakes? And the whole POINT of the OP isn't about whether to correct behavior, it is "Why use punishment as your "tool" when psychology says that it shouldn't work?" The whole idea that an adult's behavior should never need to be corrected is just.... well... unfathomable. Human beings are NOT perfect, we will make mistakes, and sometimes we won't see them ourselves and someone else will need to bring them to our attention. Guess what... that's correcting behavior in an adult. Calla

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