RE: Punishment, the wrong idea?

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MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:34:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: #1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom. You can see it anyway you like, the fact is that I can remember as a child when i did something wrong wanting to be punished for it... my mom said sometimes a spanking cleared the air (although I was not punished this way). Now punishment may provide catharsis, but it is still punishment.... quote: #2) funishment, not the same thing Again sometimes people have relationships we do not understand, and to them they get off on punishment that is not role playing... is this healthy? Well, it wouldn't be for me, but hey, just because it isn't my kink does not make it wrong quote: #3) the easy road is not always, or even usually the best way to deal with things. Relationships take work, there are no short cuts. Notice I said it "seems" to be the easiest way, I did not say it was[;)] I don't know if you are defining punishment as I am... There are many labels in this community that are up for interpretaion but punishment as a very real meaning... if it is 'punishment' for catharsis then it isnt really punishment... again this is how I see it due to my own education on the matter. They can call what they do punishment that doesnt make it so Punishment- 2 a : suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution b : a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure 3 : severe, rough, or disastrous treatment B doesnt really count here because there are no subs that I know of that get a trial hearing before being punished... The others though... a cathartic spanking is not the same thing, it isnt given for the same reason as punishment-punishment... Ok I think I have ceased making sense...

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:37:20 PM)
I live in a widely diverse household. I don't use punishment dynamics in -my- interactions, but there are several other Keepers in House Bladewing who -do- use them, and, at least from intimate observation of living in the situation, they don't seem to have any more difficulty in managing our servants than I do, without a punishment dynamic. It is true that some of our servants respond better to punishment than others, and it is also true that some of our servants develop brief attitude issues when punished, but that does not change the fact that, while the OP dismissed it as irrelevant, some dynamics just -work- with punishment involved, and that, for some people, it's an important and value-added feature of being in an authority-based dynamic. For others (like, say, myself) it is anathema, but honestly, we've had some servants who struggled under my "discipline, structure, re-educate, and nurture" model who -thrived- and finally "got it" under Ebony's "beating and no supper" model. Go figure. Calla

KariCloud -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:38:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave How, in any way shape of form, is spanking a natural consiquence for anything... Punishment and consequenses are NOT the same thing. A Consequence for lying is that people don't trust you and do not want to have relationships with you. This is natural and what one would understand is a direct result of their actions. A spanking... well that is something added, a punisher. There are a whole lot of consequences. The one you mentioned is no more natural than a spanking. People choose to trust and believe you or not, there is nothing "natural" about it, it is people-driven, deliberate, chosen, doesn't happen in nature or without people making it happen. Consequence is something that happens as a direct result of one's actions. Let's take a concrete example. My lady Owner doesn't like me biting her fingers. Her usual punishment for first infractions is a fairly light spanking. I bit her fingers when she was petting me, and she spanked me right then. Her spanking me was a punishment, and it was in direct consequence to my action of biting her fingers. It is not "natural", in terms of it happening without someone deliberately doing something. But it is a consequence of my actions. Let's take a non-D/s example. I steal something from a store and get caught. The punishment is usually a fine, or possibly jail time and community service work. The punishment is in direct relation, and a consequence of, my action of shoplifting. Fines, jail time, and community service aren't natural. They don't happen in nature, on their own. Consequences aren't all natural. In a human society, there are a lot of people-drive, or society-driven consequences to one's actions.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:42:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW I live in a widely diverse household. I don't use punishment dynamics in -my- interactions, but there are several other Keepers in House Bladewing who -do- use them, and, at least from intimate observation of living in the situation, they don't seem to have any more difficulty in managing our servants than I do, without a punishment dynamic. It is true that some of our servants respond better to punishment than others, and it is also true that some of our servants develop brief attitude issues when punished, but that does not change the fact that, while the OP dismissed it as irrelevant, some dynamics just -work- with punishment involved, and that, for some people, it's an important and value-added feature of being in an authority-based dynamic. For others (like, say, myself) it is anathema, but honestly, we've had some servants who struggled under my "discipline, structure, re-educate, and nurture" model who -thrived- and finally "got it" under Ebony's "beating and no supper" model. Go figure. Calla I didnt dismiss anything as irrelevent, I wouldnt be that dissrespecful to anyone here, as to do that. And I didnt question that they worked I questoined HOW they worked.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:43:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KariCloud quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave How, in any way shape of form, is spanking a natural consiquence for anything... Punishment and consequenses are NOT the same thing. A Consequence for lying is that people don't trust you and do not want to have relationships with you. This is natural and what one would understand is a direct result of their actions. A spanking... well that is something added, a punisher. There are a whole lot of consequences. The one you mentioned is no more natural than a spanking. People choose to trust and believe you or not, there is nothing "natural" about it, it is people-driven, deliberate, chosen, doesn't happen in nature or without people making it happen. Consequence is something that happens as a direct result of one's actions. Let's take a concrete example. My lady Owner doesn't like me biting her fingers. Her usual punishment for first infractions is a fairly light spanking. I bit her fingers when she was petting me, and she spanked me right then. Her spanking me was a punishment, and it was in direct consequence to my action of biting her fingers. It is not "natural", in terms of it happening without someone deliberately doing something. But it is a consequence of my actions. Let's take a non-D/s example. I steal something from a store and get caught. The punishment is usually a fine, or possibly jail time and community service work. The punishment is in direct relation, and a consequence of, my action of shoplifting. Fines, jail time, and community service aren't natural. They don't happen in nature, on their own. Consequences aren't all natural. In a human society, there are a lot of people-drive, or society-driven consequences to one's actions. I am sorry, I am using clinical deffinitions here. I think that is where the mix up is coming in. I do understand what you are saying though.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:46:04 PM)
quote: I don't know if you are defining punishment as I am... There are many labels in this community that are up for interpretaion but punishment as a very real meaning... if it is 'punishment' for catharsis then it isnt really punishment... again this is how I see it due to my own education on the matter. They can call what they do punishment that doesnt make it so This is my definition of "punishment". Someone does something out of line or wrong, and they are punished for it. You speed get caught you are punished with a fine. If you keep out library books too long, you get punished with a fine. You kill someone, you get put in prison. You lie to your parents, you get punished for that... I know someone who went out drinking with his best friend. He got into an accident while drunk and his best friend died. He was locked up for 3 years over that. He told me he deserved it, and the time he served would never be enough to give penance for his crime... was his prison time catharsis? I really have no idea how psychological people define punishment. I define it as paying the price for doing something wrong. It is more than just the direct result of your action (such as being deprived of your best friend because you were drinking and driving), it is something assigned to you by someone else... For example, I went behind my mom's back and did something I was not supposed to. Every day I felt like we had a "lie" between us, it tied me up in knots. I went to my mom and admitted what I had done and "told" on myself for it. She grounded me for a week, but she didn't want to even do that, she did it because she knew I needed to feel the balance was right between us. Is it different just because I accepted the punishment as my just due? I don't think it really is. Now you can post all sorts of theories on punishment, but the fact remains, I have a distinct definition for it that isn't within the APA guidelines, but is built by my experiences as someone who was punished as a kid sometimes, and someone that punished my own kid sometimes

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: I don't know if you are defining punishment as I am... There are many labels in this community that are up for interpretaion but punishment as a very real meaning... if it is 'punishment' for catharsis then it isnt really punishment... again this is how I see it due to my own education on the matter. They can call what they do punishment that doesnt make it so This is my definition of "punishment". Someone does something out of line or wrong, and they are punished for it. You speed get caught you are punished with a fine. If you keep out library books too long, you get punished with a fine. You kill someone, you get put in prison. You lie to your parents, you get punished for that... I know someone who went out drinking with his best friend. He got into an accident while drunk and his best friend died. He was locked up for 3 years over that. He told me he deserved it, and the time he served would never be enough to give penance for his crime... was his prison time catharsis? I really have no idea how psychological people define punishment. I define it as paying the price for doing something wrong. It is more than just the direct result of your action (such as being deprived of your best friend because you were drinking and driving), it is something assigned to you by someone else... For example, I went behind my mom's back and did something I was not supposed to. Every day I felt like we had a "lie" between us, it tied me up in knots. I went to my mom and admitted what I had done and "told" on myself for it. She grounded me for a week, but she didn't want to even do that, she did it because she knew I needed to feel the balance was right between us. Is it different just because I accepted the punishment as my just due? I don't think it really is. Now you can post all sorts of theories on punishment, but the fact remains, I have a distinct definition for it that isn't within the APA guidelines, but is built by my experiences as someone who was punished as a kid sometimes, and someone that punished my own kid sometimes What you described IS punishment... I am not arguing the acts here I am arguing the motives. Motivation makes a HUGE differece, as far I am conserned.

KariCloud -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 2:53:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave I am sorry, I am using clinical deffinitions here. I think that is where the mix up is coming in. I do understand what you are saying though. So am I. Where are you getting your definitions from, what field or branch of study? Mine come from modern early childhood development practices, and university classes designed for teachers. [Edited to fix broken quotes]

LadyCimarron -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:02:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I don't think punishment in and of itself is a good to to correct either. I also don't beleive that most people in this dynamic believe that either. Some may call it correction, but I bet you would probably be hard pressed to find a sub who says they obey and follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment. Most obey because they want to please their Dom/me. Punishement in many relationships are used as a consequence rather than a correction. While some subs may feel the need to be punished within the dynamics of a D/s relationship, I doubt if most feel a need to be punished as a free thinking adult. And let's remember that a dominant can only punish if a sub has agreed to that dynamic. Most subs who agree to it do so because they think it helps them. If they believe it is helpful to them....maybe it is. Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction. I never said natural. I said consequence. And if they have agreed upon "If you do A then B will occur." That makes punishment a consequence. What happens if I don't pay my bills is a not a natural consequence either. It is a planned out and agreed to event, usually by an oral or written contract. Much like a D/s relationship.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:06:18 PM)
quote: What you described IS punishment... I am not arguing the acts here I am arguing the motives. Motivation makes a HUGE differece, as far I am conserned. Okay... hypothetical situation... A submissive is ordered to quit smoking because she has been diagnosed with asthma. She has been trying, but on day three she slips and smokes a cigarette. She says nothing because she promises herself it will not happen again and she does not want to worry and upset her dom. So another day passes, and she slips again, and then the next day a couple of more times. Now she has officially crossed over from one teeny slip she hid to having the lie between them that she has in fact quit. So... she tearfully confesses, and her dominant is disappointed and shaken in his belief in her. He tells her he needs to think about it. She writes him a letter that she will do anything to make it right. So he comes back and he says "For every day that you lied you must volunteer at a hospice for those suffering from diseases caused by smoking." This will cause her to lose 4 weekends, meaning she will not have a day off for a month.. He also says that if she does not quit he must release her... Is this punishment?

LadyCimarron -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:06:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron I don't think punishment in and of itself is a good to to correct either. I also don't beleive that most people in this dynamic believe that either. Some may call it correction, but I bet you would probably be hard pressed to find a sub who says they obey and follow the rules because they are afraid of punishment. Most obey because they want to please their Dom/me. Punishement in many relationships are used as a consequence rather than a correction. While some subs may feel the need to be punished within the dynamics of a D/s relationship, I doubt if most feel a need to be punished as a free thinking adult. And let's remember that a dominant can only punish if a sub has agreed to that dynamic. Most subs who agree to it do so because they think it helps them. If they believe it is helpful to them....maybe it is. Problem is, punishment by its very nature is not a natural consequence, it is a planned out event that has nothing to do with the original infraction. I never said it was natural; but it is indeed a consequence. What happens if I don't pay my bills on time is not a natural consequence either. It is a planned out event; usually agreed to by oral or written contract. Much like a D/s relationship. But as punishment goes, it does inspire me to pay my bills on time.

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:06:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian You see, this is very interesting. I have experience with training both humans and dogs, and I can attest to both being fairly responsive to negative reinforcement, if it's delivered rationally and consistently for a specific unwanted behavior. You make interesting arguments here, however I wanted to point out... and sorry for being nitpicky, but you have your terminology wrong here. Negative reinforcement and punishment is not the same thing. That's a fair point, Ms. I used the term interchangeably with "punishment", and edited the error. I do hope the greater gist of my reply about the duality of intent in both sides of the dynamic made some sense, however. quote:* ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave As far as the shock collars on the dogs... I really hope I dont need to point at that humans are not dogs. the psychology, though not entirely alien, is nowhere near the same as humans, and I dont completely buy that the shocking does more than scare the dog and condition them with fear not to do whatever it is you dont want them to do. You are far better off, when training a dog to offer the dog a treat for doing what it is you want instead of shocking them for doing what it is you do not want. The objective wasn't to compare humans to dogs for similarity, but offer two differing examples that respond to punishment well. I introduced dogs due to the shock collar mythology that claims their employment to be useless as behavior modification tools, often using arguments similar to yours (punishment doesn't work, reward is better). Don't get me wrong; I have found rewarding the canine variety with treats works wonderfully. Unfortunately, this method is not always applicable in all situations. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Negative reinforcement is taking away a non desired activity in way of reinforcing a behavior... Out of morbid curiosity, what do you think about this method of training as well? I spoke of both punishment and negative reinforcement due to the assumption you would prefer neither. For instance, wouldn't you feel insulted by the apparent manipulation involved in your example of negative reinforcement? If negative reinforcement sits well with you, but punishment doesn't, could you explain why?

littlewonder -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:25:20 PM)
If it wasn't for the punishment dynamic in our relationship, disobeying or doing something wrong would continue to eat away at me until our relationship disintegrated. I need to know that there is a consequence to my actions and to know that he cares enough to hold me accountable to my actions. When he punishes me it absolves me of the guilt and I can move on with knowing I won't screw up again and I will do it correctly next time. If he didn't punish me I would start to feel as if he no longer cared about me and about what I do.

lilmisssubmiss -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:38:37 PM)
It might not for you, but it helps me be kept in line.....and do better...and do my best... :). Different strokes for different folks!

yellowroses -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:46:24 PM)
I agree. I have never been punishied in the 9 + years that I have been with Chip AKA-Arimusrex. Now that I think about it...it may be for the very reasons that you describe. kim

CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:53:34 PM)
quote: I questoined HOW they worked. Ok, it sounds to me like what you're asking is "How does this work when there is no rational, scientific reason why it -should- work, according to psychological research". The answer to that is because this isn't -science-, it is emotion. It is messy, complicated and -irrational-. Most human-emotion-based relationships are. I don't -not- use punishment because it is scientifically proven not to work. I don't use punishment because on an irrational, completely emotional level, I just don't LIKE that aspect in my dynamics. For people who -do- like it though, regardless of whether it is irrational or not, it simply works -- because the individuals involved emotionally resonate with the behavior, so it creates the kind of responses that they're seeking in one another. Calla

Icarys -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 3:59:18 PM)
quote: #1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom. Your splitting hairs. Regardless of what she got out of it afterward or because of..It is still the punishment that was the catalyst. Therefore, in this case it was a positive.

SurrenderForMe -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 4:10:16 PM)
quote: Now, I know there are many subs on here that have said they are punished infrequently and when they are they never repeat this infraction. These subs, I have found, are usually the ones that have the intrinsic need to behave already within them. They will not repeat the infraction, not because their Dom spanked them, or ignored them, but because deep down they know they did wrong and feel awful. These subs probably never needed to be punished in the first place for they were already kicking themselves in the ass, and probably never would have repeated the infraction, regardless of being punished or not. So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? I love the cartoon. What I have found is that your last paragraph covers it, but kinky little boys and girls add a twist. They really do feel bad when they screw up. The punishment is more of an acknowledgment from the dominant that, yes they did wrong. I am not referring to those who do it for attention alone. The attention from the dominant works as a kind of catharsis or cauterizing the wound. They feel bad, they want a real feeling that they paid a price. It also fits the mythos of the bdsm world that a slave be punished. If one buys into the hype, it can become real to them. In the end, punishment is just an easy word to describe the dynamics. JMO

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 4:18:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys Regardless of what she got out of it afterward or because of..It is still the punishment that was the catalyst. Therefore, in this case it was a positive. Seconded. It can easily be said that "catharsis" or "cleansing" is exactly the ideal reception to punishment beneath the obvious suffering; giving oneself up to suffer to be squared with the Keeper. In the least it's something painful that is associated with an unwanted act; a pain that helps the slave to remember something that is sometimes overlooked or forgotten, despite the best of intentions.

lally2 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 4:33:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder If he didn't punish me I would start to feel as if he no longer cared about me and about what I do. this is where alot of submissives come from with regard to punishment. its a sign to them that they are cared about and the relationship is valuable to their Dominant. i can understand that up to a point but it falls short massively when you consider that the Dom could show equal care and concern by spending time sitting down with their sub and working out the problem with her. in the end i think it really boils down to having the responsibility of their actions or misbehaviour taken from them and expunged. the slate is cleared, the psuedo parent/child reassurance is given that parameters exist and the sub feels safe and secure again. if the parameter isnt put in place the sub is most likely to keep pushing until the Dominant applies that parameter or calls it a day. in that regard, punishment works for the sub. the motivation for the Dominant must surely come from a desire to maintain the status quo or let it go bust. i think the question really is, how much is punishment driven by the subs needs for parameters and security reassurance. if it was merely a case of catharsis the sub could, presumably approach their Dominant and ask for catharsis - if a confession is necessary and catharsis required then to ask for a spanking or some priviledge removed would serve just as well. it is the action of punishment and its whole delivery that works for some dynamics. the Dominant has the control and the option to make that call and the submissive can surrender herself to this action, knowing she is loved and being taken care of in a demonstrative way.

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