RE: Punishment, the wrong idea?

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BitaTruble -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 4:37:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? I don't resent being punished when Himself finds it necessary because of the way he chooses to punish me which is a combination of utilizing how I learn best and whatever is appropriate to the infraction. Most (if not all) of the times I've been punished have been a direct result of being unfocused and/or thoughtless and by punishing me for those sorts of infractions he brings me back into thoughtfulness and focus.. exactly where he wants me and a place I do, normally, dwell quite well. Although I don't see our punishment dynamic as negative, I don't believe the two forms are mutually exclusive and a combination of both negative and positive can work well together. We have an open dialogue so he can find out why I did AB or C, why it is unacceptable to him and why XY or Z is the consequence. It was a few days before my surgery was scheduled and he was on a business trip. He called me told me to make sure to be in bed by 11 PM so I would get proper rest, keep up my strength etc. before the surgery. I got engrossed in a book and went about 20 mins over the time. I told him what happened, he said okay.. no reading until I get home. I thought that was an appropriate punishment and now when I pick up a book and have to be done at a certain time to get my ass in bed, I simply set the alarm on my cell phone. Not reading for those two days was punishment because that included reading online so no forums, no books, no newspapers etc. As an avid reader, that is something which worked for me for that infraction. I came up with a solution so as not to repeat it (I had a lot of time to think of it!) That's generally the sort of punishment he doles out.. giving me time to come up with solutions so I don't repeat infractions. That's our way.. others have other ways.

porcelaine -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 5:13:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 this is where alot of submissives come from with regard to punishment. its a sign to them that they are cared about and the relationship is valuable to their Dominant. lally, I agree with you on that. I've heard it echoed before but I don't feel that way. I look at it as cause and effect. It has nothing to do with emotions in my mind. The result is predicated by the perceived offense. quote: i think the question really is, how much is punishment driven by the subs needs for parameters and security reassurance. I can think of better ways to spend my time. In the end it means for whatever reason I made a choice that didn't coincide with his preferences and that must be communicated and realigned. Perhaps verbalizing that isn't enough for some. I can say that I don't derive any enjoyment from it or question his regard for me if he elects to use different methods for modification. quote: if it was merely a case of catharsis the sub could, presumably approach their Dominant and ask for catharsis - if a confession is necessary and catharsis required then to ask for a spanking or some priviledge removed would serve just as well. When I initially read that I had to take a moment to consider my response and if the corrective measures were cathartic in any way. I believe they allowed me to take responsibility and be accountable for my actions. I think it provides an opportunity for retooling by the dominant. However it isn't catharsis, but definitely a reshaping of sorts. quote: it is the action of punishment and its whole delivery that works for some dynamics. the Dominant has the control and the option to make that call and the submissive can surrender herself to this action, knowing she is loved and being taken care of in a demonstrative way. Punishment that fails to understand the behavior that requires modification hasn't addressed the problem in my mind. Identifying the situations, feelings, or mental associations that encourage me to act in opposition to what he prefers is what I focus on. If we never get there we've merely affixed a band-aid instead. I'm interested in eradication, not compliance or replication. ~porcelaine

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 6:26:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: What you described IS punishment... I am not arguing the acts here I am arguing the motives. Motivation makes a HUGE differece, as far I am conserned. Okay... hypothetical situation... A submissive is ordered to quit smoking because she has been diagnosed with asthma. She has been trying, but on day three she slips and smokes a cigarette. She says nothing because she promises herself it will not happen again and she does not want to worry and upset her dom. So another day passes, and she slips again, and then the next day a couple of more times. Now she has officially crossed over from one teeny slip she hid to having the lie between them that she has in fact quit. So... she tearfully confesses, and her dominant is disappointed and shaken in his belief in her. He tells her he needs to think about it. She writes him a letter that she will do anything to make it right. So he comes back and he says "For every day that you lied you must volunteer at a hospice for those suffering from diseases caused by smoking." This will cause her to lose 4 weekends, meaning she will not have a day off for a month.. He also says that if she does not quit he must release her... Is this punishment? Yes

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 6:29:38 PM)
quote: Yes My contention is that the motivation is to keep her from lying and destroying the relationship, to save her health, and to have exposure to what will happen to her if she does not stop smoking. I think this is an example of loving thought-filled punishment. I see nothing here that is "unhealthy" or wrong. Now, it wouldn't work for me. I wouldn't want that dynamic, but that does not make it "wrong" or unhealthy

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 6:40:50 PM)
I remember the first time punishment was brought up to me. I can't even recall what I had done, but it had turned into one long talk from him to me, and me crying and realizing that I should have just listened to him in the first place (fukn know it all doms!). Anyhow, when it was all done and the tears were dried and all that, he asked me if I needed punishing in order to put it behind me. I said no and he said then it is done and behind us as of this moment. And it was. I know some who need "punishment" in order to more or less turn the page and move on. For me, the talking and admitting I was wrong and him forgiving it was enough for me. Fact is, that was the only time it ever even came up for us. For me, if there was a lot of problems and punishment, that would let me know we were not compatable. If I am not doing all I can to please, the only reason is that I don't want to and if I don't want to, I shouldn't be there.

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/15/2010 6:52:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave quote: ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian You see, this is very interesting. I have experience with training both humans and dogs, and I can attest to both being fairly responsive to negative reinforcement, if it's delivered rationally and consistently for a specific unwanted behavior. You make interesting arguments here, however I wanted to point out... and sorry for being nitpicky, but you have your terminology wrong here. Negative reinforcement and punishment is not the same thing. That's a fair point, Ms. I used the term interchangeably with "punishment", and edited the error. I do hope the greater gist of my reply about the duality of intent in both sides of the dynamic made some sense, however. quote:* ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave As far as the shock collars on the dogs... I really hope I dont need to point at that humans are not dogs. the psychology, though not entirely alien, is nowhere near the same as humans, and I dont completely buy that the shocking does more than scare the dog and condition them with fear not to do whatever it is you dont want them to do. You are far better off, when training a dog to offer the dog a treat for doing what it is you want instead of shocking them for doing what it is you do not want. The objective wasn't to compare humans to dogs for similarity, but offer two differing examples that respond to punishment well. I introduced dogs due to the shock collar mythology that claims their employment to be useless as behavior modification tools, often using arguments similar to yours (punishment doesn't work, reward is better). Don't get me wrong; I have found rewarding the canine variety with treats works wonderfully. Unfortunately, this method is not always applicable in all situations. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Negative reinforcement is taking away a non desired activity in way of reinforcing a behavior... Out of morbid curiosity, what do you think about this method of training as well? I spoke of both punishment and negative reinforcement due to the assumption you would prefer neither. For instance, wouldn't you feel insulted by the apparent manipulation involved in your example of negative reinforcement? If negative reinforcement sits well with you, but punishment doesn't, could you explain why? Rienforcment is a possative action punishment is negative. We all rienforce each other on a certain level without even knowing it. And honestly, I dont vaccuume or do dishes so :P

IronBear -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 12:59:35 AM)
As I have stated in another thread in this forum, I punish rarely. More often a mistake or screw up is, in part, my fault for some part of instructions or training is flawed, or it may be that a slave takes things set down in the standing orders or given verbally literally. If this be the case, how can I punish for my errors? I prefer in these cases to use the retrain and or re-give or rewrite directions and work with the slave until he or she understand what is required.Thus punishment is relegated to three areas: Disobedience. Direct abuse or rudeness. Violence(Against people or property of Bruin Cottage. Attempting to come between Lady Neets and myself). Laziness. Laxity in carrying out the duties assigned.

lally2 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:45:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Rienforcment is a possative action punishment is negative. but punishment very often is reinforcement for the sub and the Dom - i really think it depends on how its delivered and the people involved. ive been punished harshly once - it didnt feel negative. i knew it was coming and i was prepared for it and i knew why it was happening. im not someone who wants to be punished as part of my relationship but it happened and i accepted it. the thing is we are adults, not children. we are capable of standing up for ourselves and of saying no and plenty do. but i dont see the correllation between the child and adult me - it is my adult choice to be in an authority exchange relationship and it is my choice to give all of me to my Dominant to do with as He wishes. the fact that He is a sane, intelligent human being protects me from stupid - but stupid is out there and stupid can get very negative. presumably part of the reason He has chosen me is because im capable of seeing the right and wrong in a situation and to correct myself before He ever has to. i used to read people saying 'He just has to tell me that he's dissappointed and im a mess' - and i used to thing (pfft!) - but its *true* - if my D ever says that to me ill be floored completely and if that flooring continued id have to ask Him to beat me because the feeling of dissappointment would kill me, id need, really need to have that negativity trounced out of me. it would eat me alive.

ranja -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:54:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? 1. punishment may be something the submissive needs for her own inner psychological balance.... clears the air, gives her a chance for "penance" etc. 2. It is for fun sometimes 3. It seems the easiest way to deal with a problem Punishment is something i do not need #1) As I have said, I do not believe this to be punishment, instead it is a form of catharsis. Catharsis is for the sub, punishment is for the Dom. #2) funishment, not the same thing #3) the easy road is not always, or even usually the best way to deal with things. Relationships take work, there are no short cuts. As i read Julia's 3 comments (even though she does not need it) i could totally relate to that and thought, yes my point exactly, then you tear it appart... and i think you miss the point... #1 short sharp punishment is not a form of catharsis, some times it might simply be a slap or pinch with a short command to put the other person back on track a corrective smack... it sounds childish... and it is... it works better for me than anything else and it is His favourite way to make me behave. The alternative is for Him to tell me to shut up or something... sometimes i respond badly to that... my immediate reaction to that is: "but this and that and how dare you to tell me to shut up!!!" sometimes a physical 'end' to my down wards spiralling emotions is just the best treatment to keep us both 'sane' #2 yes it is for fun sometimes and the word 'funishment' is just funny... the line between 'serious' and 'for fun' can be so very thin and also be crossed over several times in a session, there is nothing wrong with using humour in a very serious way. #3 relationship do indeed take a lot of work... it took us ages and many many arguments to come to the conclusion that it is much simpler and clearer to end silly emotional spin offs into darkness, mainly caused by my puddled perception at times, with a corrective smack or pinch from 'The Master' Also all people punish each other all the time it is just not always recognised as punishment, it nevertheless is... some people specialise in the 'silent treatment' or they withdraw themselves sexually or make sniping comments... absolutely everybody has a way to punish another it is just another form of manipulation, and it works if you are smart enough to do it correctly ETA and when done correctly there is nothing negative about punishment, i think your line of thinking on that is wrong.

lally2 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 2:36:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 this is where alot of submissives come from with regard to punishment. its a sign to them that they are cared about and the relationship is valuable to their Dominant. lally, I agree with you on that. I've heard it echoed before but I don't feel that way. I look at it as cause and effect. It has nothing to do with emotions in my mind. The result is predicated by the perceived offense. nods* - the thing is that in all of my relationships with men, going all the way back to being a kid they were all capable and at times perfectly willing to punish me. as a child i had no choice, as an adult i had a choice and i left three abusive relationships because under the terms of punishment it had nothing to do with them caring about me and everything to do with lashing out impotently. here there is or atleast there should be no lashing out, it is done in a caring way and it is a reinforcement of their continued value of you and of their authority over you. its a language i understand. i may not want it, but i understand it. quote: i think the question really is, how much is punishment driven by the subs needs for parameters and security reassurance. I can think of better ways to spend my time. In the end it means for whatever reason I made a choice that didn't coincide with his preferences and that must be communicated and realigned. Perhaps verbalizing that isn't enough for some. I can say that I don't derive any enjoyment from it or question his regard for me if he elects to use different methods for modification. i agree - but ill admit in the earlier years of this that was my need in a way. i had no parameters of my own to be honest. i was one free falling, spinning hell-cat. parameters were what i needed to feel secure, needed, wanted and safe. since then ive been taught about parameters and how to control that element in me and now it is far more as you describe up there. cause and effect, but now at least i try hard to keep to within the parameters i sense are necessary from my Dominant quote: if it was merely a case of catharsis the sub could, presumably approach their Dominant and ask for catharsis - if a confession is necessary and catharsis required then to ask for a spanking or some priviledge removed would serve just as well. When I initially read that I had to take a moment to consider my response and if the corrective measures were cathartic in any way. I believe they allowed me to take responsibility and be accountable for my actions. I think it provides an opportunity for retooling by the dominant. However it isn't catharsis, but definitely a reshaping of sorts. the one and only really hefty beating ive ever taken as punishment was cathartic in the end. He had dealt with the situation, i had surrendered myself to it and it was over and done with. the odd thing is that we dont think twice about taking a hefty beating any other time, but the moment people add the punishment undertone to the whole thing, suddenly we are in a negative situation. you could argue that taking a beating and needing that beating is a negative reinforcement of our 'needs'. wouldnt it be better to take up origamy or knitting [:D] - its the same thing in many ways, the Dominant is dominating us physically and often in a way that we have to process internally to get through. all that physical punishment is doing is turning that activity around to a different focus. it is taking the action and using it for other things other than fun. quote: it is the action of punishment and its whole delivery that works for some dynamics. the Dominant has the control and the option to make that call and the submissive can surrender herself to this action, knowing she is loved and being taken care of in a demonstrative way. Punishment that fails to understand the behavior that requires modification hasn't addressed the problem in my mind. Identifying the situations, feelings, or mental associations that encourage me to act in opposition to what he prefers is what I focus on. If we never get there we've merely affixed a band-aid instead. I'm interested in eradication, not compliance or replication. i agree totally, well i agree with youre post completely. ~porcelaine

SouthernSpankin -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 7:13:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? There are many adults out there that are happy in a relationship with a punishment dynamic... who even claim it is the most loving relationship imaginable. Yes, you said you are "not referring to funishment" and "That is...not what I am concerned with here." So why all the trashing on punishment here in the general BDSM forum? If you don't want to talk about the BDSM people into punishment, and if you just want to talk about punishment in the overall vanilla world, why not post your particular thoughts in a forum like "Politics and Religion"? By posting your thoughts here in the general BDSM forum, you make it seem like you aren't cool with people that enjoy a relationship with a punishment dynamic. My guess is you aren't cool with one yourself, and you think everybody has to be like you. I don't see why you think everybody has to be like you.

juliaoceania -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 7:28:02 AM)
I wanted to another point that might help here... You are trained in psychology, which offers insight into human behavior through observation (mostly). The behavior that psychologists observe is for the largest part Western culture, and they determine what is healthy behavior and maladjusted behavior through observing this group of people. Part of my trouble about determining what is healthy and unhealthy through observation is that often self reporting isn't given much weight, and the observations are given too much. Therefore there is this entire "science" built up on observing a certain group of people and making large assumptions upon those observations and projecting them on to the masses, even those from other cultures. In recent years psychologists have begun to at least acknowledge that their models are often not multi-cultural, and good psychology SHOULD be. There are psychological anthropologists that work in this field.... and I will tell you the difference between an anthropologist as for as their methods, and compare them to psychologists... Anthropologists are usually not trying to change behavior, they are attempting to understand it. They do so by participant observation, and this is done to try to see the world from someone else's eyes. They ask people to self report what things mean to them, how they feel about their lives, etc etc etc... not that they don't watch to see if behavior differs from what people say, but they give great weight to it. For example, an anthropologist would look at a "punishment" dynamic and want to understand it, instead of dismissing it as harmful out of hand. They would want to know what these relationships mean to people. Anthropologists see much stranger things than this in the course of their work....this process is called "cultural relativity"... in other words we check our own opinions at the door while we are doing our work, not because we don't have them, but because we have them and we don't want them in the way of finding that meaning to it all On the punishment threads it would do you some good, if you really want to understand "punishment" to look at it from an anthropological view instead of a psychological one... unless you are just out to fit punishment into some confirmation bias based upon theoretical models you learned as an undergrad. You might have a different opinion if you took what people were self reporting here and read it with an eye toward understanding

porcelaine -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 7:37:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 nods* - the thing is that in all of my relationships with men, going all the way back to being a kid they were all capable and at times perfectly willing to punish me. as a child i had no choice, as an adult i had a choice and i left three abusive relationships because under the terms of punishment it had nothing to do with them caring about me and everything to do with lashing out impotently. here there is or atleast there should be no lashing out, it is done in a caring way and it is a reinforcement of their continued value of you and of their authority over you. its a language i understand. i may not want it, but i understand it. lally, Time, maturity, and age have altered my approach on many things. Especially this. It's pretty simple. If he's good to and good for me we'll work. If he knows what he's doing and capable of admitting when he doesn't we have a chance. My commitment is to fulfilling relationships where both parties are invested. It must be healthy and he has to meet the criteria for mastering me. I think a lot of this takes care of itself when you put the right person in that position. quote: i agree - but ill admit in the earlier years of this that was my need in a way. i had no parameters of my own to be honest. i was one free falling, spinning hell-cat. parameters were what i needed to feel secure, needed, wanted and safe. since then ive been taught about parameters and how to control that element in me and now it is far more as you describe up there. cause and effect, but now at least i try hard to keep to within the parameters i sense are necessary from my Dominant I'm very controlled for the most part as a natural disposition. But I'll freely admit that slavery tames my wildness. That mustang will run roughshod over you and laugh at your attempts to reel her in. It's largely because I'm compelled by a will far greater than mine. And that doesn't mean he's stronger or more adept, but truthfully says he complements me in that capacity. In the strangest way our similarity is the parameter. On my side he understands that I choose not to steamroll him because I enjoy deference instead. It isn't because he's a mystical aura that intimidates. Recognizing the nuances that we each present often eradicates subjects like these. A lot of it is simplified. quote: the odd thing is that we dont think twice about taking a hefty beating any other time, but the moment people add the punishment undertone to the whole thing, suddenly we are in a negative situation. That's because the flagellation is meant to foster awareness and make the supplicant contrite. The problem is that isn't the outcome for everyone and using the wrong approach can escalate an issue easily. Put a better way, when I'm in charge of a group I have methods that I like to employ. But I must take into account the people I'm leading and the objectives I'd like to achieve. As attached as I might be to certain practices, they may be ill fit ting for the situation at hand. This requires a well honed tool belt of techniques and a willingness to be adaptable when necessary. I must assess the effectiveness of my decision before putting it into play. For some punishment by way of physical means works well. Other people have a better response to emotional or mental methods. Sometimes silence or isolation does the trick. The ideal solution is customized to its participants. And its application must be wisely applied. If every infraction or mistake led to a negative outcome I'd be pretty darned miserable. quote: you could argue that taking a beating and needing that beating is a negative reinforcement of our 'needs'. wouldnt it be better to take up origamy or knitting [:D] - its the same thing in many ways, the Dominant is dominating us physically and often in a way that we have to process internally to get through. all that physical punishment is doing is turning that activity around to a different focus. it is taking the action and using it for other things other than fun. It took me quite a while to figure out why I like that. The first part makes sense. I like men that are often a lot like myself. That's why we get along and drive each other mad. But he inspires me nonetheless. Sadism is a visible display of harnessing. It's a mental impression that's physically applied regarding who wears the pants. You can liken it to his opportunity for glorified strutting that just happens to turn me on. I don't get that from physical punishment. I withdraw and disassociate. Although I see the infraction the measures don't make sense in my head and often leave me cold. I'm there but definitely not present. And they recognize that quickly in spite of the smile and quiet nod. I don't discount the methods may create a different response in someone else. I'm just not wired that way. ~porcelaine

MarcEsadrian -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 8:31:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave Rienforcment is a possative action punishment is negative. To put it a little more clearly and to avoid further confusion, I'd put it this way: positive and negative reinforcement builds or strengthens a desired behavior; punishment weakens a behavior. That said, none of the operant conditionings are panaceas on their own for all situations. quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave We all rienforce each other on a certain level without even knowing it. We also inhibit and subvert each other too without knowing it. Sometimes we do none of the above. My question to you remains, however: are you a fan of negative reinforcement?

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 9:27:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyCimarron Its appears that there has been a crusade on the boards to bash these "awful relationships" where one consenting adult punishes another consenting adult. I am sure this is not the last thread we will have that follows this trend. I think many of us into punishment are getting a bit tired of this free for all attempt to bash our choices in how we conduct our relationships. Its weird- who would have ever thought that punishment would be seen as a odd thing that needed justification on a BDSM website? [8\|] Completely and totally agreed. I have nothing against those who say that a punishment dynamic is not for them and they have reasons A, B, and C. I think it's great. Everybody should know what is right or wrong for them. Yet, consistently, those of us who use punishment within the dynamic come on several threads at a time (because we can't just have one) to say that a punishment dynamic yields the result that we wish to obtain. It's as though they want to beat into the ground that because it doesn't work for them, it shouldn't work for us either. This in spite of the fact that it's a proven successful method within the dynamic of which we are a part. Last time I checked, there are a lot of topics running around here that folks want to put up a fuss about. Punishment is one of these. It is one of My rights as an Owner. It's in the dynamic because I said so and the boy knew this when I first put the collar on his neck. It's not up for committee and other people don't get a vote.

WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 9:47:53 AM)
I don't advocate punishment per se, but there have been times in my past when my own remorse over my mistakes ate me up so badly, that punishment offered a redemption of sorts. I was greatful for that physical, tangible release. That was then, my needs have changed somewhat, but I still remember how it felt. The point is to surrender to the consequence, however it is administered, and allow yourself to learn, forgive (be forgiven) and move on. Most of the time, a simple mental kick and acknowledgement that you fucked up is sufficient Sometimes, for some people, when they get caught up in beating themselves up over a mistake, that just doesn't always suffice.

lally2 -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 10:34:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: porcelaine ive picked out bits from youre post, but it was all worth reading through a couple of times [:)] My commitment is to fulfilling relationships where both parties are invested. It must be healthy and he has to meet the criteria for mastering me. I think a lot of this takes care of itself when you put the right person in that position. . In the strangest way our similarity is the parameter. On my side he understands that I choose not to steamroll him because I enjoy deference instead. It isn't because he's a mystical aura that intimidates. Recognizing the nuances that we each present often eradicates subjects like these. A lot of it is simplified. absolutely! - its the subtleties i pick up on now. i find myself hearing things that i didnt hear before. i feel myself bending to a gentle voice and im compelled to listen and follow. there is no compulsion to kick the traces or fight, simply to follow His flow. i can speak only for myself here - but often a punishment occurred because i pushed for it. i wanted to test his resolve and Dominance of me and i related that to being taken down. i still need to be taken down in some sort of a way, reduced to tears and overwhelmed by someone i trust who is bigger and stronger than me. because i am a strong bitch, i realise and sometimes i need that physically taken from me. but it doesnt need to be punishment anymore. today i took on a sonofabitch who tried to overtake me on a forest road, lined by grazzing animals, later he pulled up infront of my car and forced me to slam on my brakes, as he got out of his car i was already out of mine and ready for him. i swept the floor with him and left him standing with no argument. i was magnificent [:)] - It's a mental impression that's physically applied regarding who wears the pants. You can liken it to his opportunity for glorified strutting that just happens to turn me on. I don't get that from physical punishment. I withdraw and disassociate. im someone who can accept and take punishment if its earned and its used to propell a stagnant situation forward. i do not need punishment to have it proved to me that He is in control, i have given Him all of me, why would i then contradict that. were i with a man who wished for punishment to be an integral part of our relationship that would not have put me off, i do not find it a negative thing at all, so long as its used judiciously and correctly. but then i would not have entered that relationship believing i was going to be punished, id go in believing that i would not do anything to earn it in the first place. but as you say maturity and growing into this makes you sensitive to the nuance and the subtleties of their power and control of you, along with the overt expression that comes through BDSM. whilst i can accept punishment i do not think i need it any more. i no longer need to have enforced the one thing i know i want with a man im totally bonkers about [:D] ~porcelaine

porcelaine -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 11:51:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 ive picked out bits from youre post, but it was all worth reading through a couple of times [:)] lally, Thank you sweetie. You're much too kind. [;)] quote: absolutely! - its the subtleties i pick up on now. i find myself hearing things that i didnt hear before. i feel myself bending to a gentle voice and im compelled to listen and follow. there is no compulsion to kick the traces or fight, simply to follow His flow. That's wonderful to hear! The results are balanced when you look at them. His compelling is meaningless if you're not pliable and willing to move. They go hand in hand. quote: i can speak only for myself here - but often a punishment occurred because i pushed for it. i wanted to test his resolve and Dominance of me and i related that to being taken down. i still need to be taken down in some sort of a way, reduced to tears and overwhelmed by someone i trust who is bigger and stronger than me. because i am a strong bitch, i realise and sometimes i need that physically taken from me. but it doesnt need to be punishment anymore. I enjoy being conquered but it isn't something most men are capable of doing. It isn't a matter of challenging him. It's those silly notions that some adhere to that are brought on by their belief that his dominance suggests he can dominate anyone he chooses. I simply dispel that fantasy. In terms of the relationship, my outspokenness manifests itself differently and I choke down the resistance and settle in nicely. Only my owner can bring me to heel. But he doesn't need to punish me to bring that about. A look, tone, or word will suffice. quote: today i took on a sonofabitch who tried to overtake me on a forest road, lined by grazzing animals, later he pulled up infront of my car and forced me to slam on my brakes, as he got out of his car i was already out of mine and ready for him. i swept the floor with him and left him standing with no argument. i was magnificent [:)] - Your delight in toe tapping is amusing. Is there little wonder why we get along? I'm relatively laid back for the most part. But I do enjoy an occasional volley with the male superiority types that believe their gender renders them supreme. I don't believe enslavement means reconstructing his tattered ego, paying the price for his perceived victimization by other women, or delivering the accolades and respect he's sorely missing. You've gotta dig around the roots to discover why he's really doing this. quote: im someone who can accept and take punishment if its earned and its used to propell a stagnant situation forward. i do not need punishment to have it proved to me that He is in control, i have given Him all of me, why would i then contradict that. were i with a man who wished for punishment to be an integral part of our relationship that would not have put me off, i do not find it a negative thing at all, so long as its used judiciously and correctly. but then i would not have entered that relationship believing i was going to be punished, id go in believing that i would not do anything to earn it in the first place. I have noticed that those that don't place a huge emphasis on punishment as the only form of behavior correction and modification often fail to buy into other ideas that proliferate these forums. Issues arise when that's the only solution he can fathom. I think it's often the easier choice and a cop out in most cases. quote: whilst i can accept punishment i do not think i need it any more. i no longer need to have enforced the one thing i know i want with a man im totally bonkers about [:D] Exactly. I'm such a sweet girl when properly tethered. Finding that force in the guise I prefer is part of the journey. But it's one I've come to enjoy more and more with each assessment made. ~porcelaine

MagiksSlave -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:01:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SouthernSpankin quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? There are many adults out there that are happy in a relationship with a punishment dynamic... who even claim it is the most loving relationship imaginable. Yes, you said you are "not referring to funishment" and "That is...not what I am concerned with here." So why all the trashing on punishment here in the general BDSM forum? If you don't want to talk about the BDSM people into punishment, and if you just want to talk about punishment in the overall vanilla world, why not post your particular thoughts in a forum like "Politics and Religion"? By posting your thoughts here in the general BDSM forum, you make it seem like you aren't cool with people that enjoy a relationship with a punishment dynamic. My guess is you aren't cool with one yourself, and you think everybody has to be like you. I don't see why you think everybody has to be like you. I am not trashing anyone. I am just curious because all I have learned in my education negates all that I have heard and learned here. I myself, in my younger, younger years had been in a punishment relationship, it wasn’t good for me at all and I got out, but at the time that it had started it was what I thought I wanted and needed so I can understand on some level some people wanting and needing it. However, now that I see better ways of behavior modification, I simply question the use of punishment. This is about curiosity and getting into others heads. It is not about trashing any one else’s relationships it is about me being able to close that huge rift between what I have learned in school and what I have learned here. Color me confused is all

LadyCimarron -> RE: Punishment, the wrong idea? (7/16/2010 1:26:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave quote: ORIGINAL: SouthernSpankin quote: ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave So, now, I ask. With so many positive ways out there, to shape behavior, why go with the one negative one? There are many adults out there that are happy in a relationship with a punishment dynamic... who even claim it is the most loving relationship imaginable. Yes, you said you are "not referring to funishment" and "That is...not what I am concerned with here." So why all the trashing on punishment here in the general BDSM forum? If you don't want to talk about the BDSM people into punishment, and if you just want to talk about punishment in the overall vanilla world, why not post your particular thoughts in a forum like "Politics and Religion"? By posting your thoughts here in the general BDSM forum, you make it seem like you aren't cool with people that enjoy a relationship with a punishment dynamic. My guess is you aren't cool with one yourself, and you think everybody has to be like you. I don't see why you think everybody has to be like you. I am not trashing anyone. I am just curious because all I have learned in my education negates all that I have heard and learned here. I myself, in my younger, younger years had been in a punishment relationship, it wasn’t good for me at all and I got out, but at the time that it had started it was what I thought I wanted and needed so I can understand on some level some people wanting and needing it. However, now that I see better ways of behavior modification, I simply question the use of punishment. This is about curiosity and getting into others heads. It is not about trashing any one else’s relationships it is about me being able to close that huge rift between what I have learned in school and what I have learned here. Color me confused is all Did anything you learned in school specifically address punishment within the confines of a consenting adult D/s relationship? If not, it is probably best not applied to that type of relationship. Doing that will cause confusion. I learned the same things in school and took it for granted that what I learned were studies that applied to mainstream society; not to me personally and certainly not to relationships that have BDSM as their foundation. And if punishment doesn't work in your D/s relationship that is fine. Personally that confuses me how a D/s realtionship works with no punishment dynamic in place. For myself, I would feel like I was just playing if I had Authority over someone and nothing in place to back that authority up, but that's just me. I cannot say that there is anything wrong with an adult that does NOT want a punishment dynamic in place. I just know that I have tried that type of dynamic and it just does not work for ME.

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