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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 12:29:49 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If god is so powerful why does he permit natural Evil in this world? Innocent children dying from earthquakes, for example.

Without denying that the existence of evil raises a difficult problem, I find it difficult to put natural disasters into that category. As it seems to me, for an act to be evil requires volition. Natural events are not really actions that Nature undertakes in a volitional sense. If perhaps you attribute the volitional component to God, then the question is no longer why does evil exist. It becomes, instead, why does God commit (not "permit") evil acts.

K.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 12:30:59 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If god is so powerful why does he permit natural Evil in this world? Innocent children dying from earthquakes, for example.

It would be a dull universe if there wasn't any evil in it. It would also be a cruel universe. And a dead universe.

You do not know that these children were innocents. Indeed, they may have been blessed and their desires - please G-d let me die - being mercifully granted. Your perception of suffering and death as being horrendous and wrong is at fault.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 12:45:14 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

It still took the Muslim brotherhood to change the Nazi policy from extradition/isolation of the Jews to "the Final Solution".
Bizarre revisionist bullshit 


ORLY.

Revised by one of the chief implementers of the FS for the Nazi's for what purpose?



Al-Husseini practiced what he preached. During the Nuremberg Trials in July 1946, Eichmann’s assistant, Dieter Wisliczeny, testified that the Mufti was a central figure in the planning of the genocide of the Jews:


“The Grand Mufti has repeatedly suggested to the Nazi authorities — including Hitler, von Ribbentrop and Himmler — the extermination of European Jewry . . . The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan . . . He was one of Eichmann’s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz.”

Wisliczeny also testified that al-Husseini asked Heinrich Himmler to send one of Eichmann’s assistants to Jerusalem once the war was over, to aid the Mufti in “solving the Jewish question in the Middle East.”

And according to the Arab Higher Committee, “In virtually identical letters, the Mufti, in the summer of 1944, approached Germany, Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary to speed up the extermination of the Jews by sending them to Poland where the Nazi death chambers were located.” The Mufti successfully demanded that 400,000 Jews who were about to be deported to the Holy Land instead be sent to their deaths.


Revisionist my ass. Ignored by historians, yes.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/17/2010 12:46:45 PM >

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 12:53:27 PM   
Rule


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The genocide on the Jews had already been decided on dozens of years before the second world war started.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 12:53:47 PM   
Tantriqu


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clearly if you believe in the new testament or the mishnah , jewish religious elders including yosef bar kayafa as chair of the sanhedrin and judas betrayed jesus, and as per 'Life of Brian' the romans did the actual nails-into-the-wrists.
John 11:53 Then from that day forth, they took counsel together for to put him to death.
John 11:56 Then sought they for Iesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the Temple.
John 11:57 Now both the chief Priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.

1st Thes Chap 2 14-15:
1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the Churches of God, which in Iudea are in Christ Iesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Iewes:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Iesus, and their own Prophets, and have persecuted us: and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

But it's nothing new, or old.
religious leaders such as catholic popes and bishops kill and excommunicate those who disagree with them. In the early 16th century, Tyndale wanted everyone to be able to read the bible for themselves, and wrote a beautiful translation in the English vernacular, pre-dating the King James version by decades. The catholic church tortured and killed him, and several years later, quietly published his masterpiece themselves.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 12:55:10 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The genocide on the Jews had already been decided on dozens of years before the second world war started.


sure it was.

Historians originally placed it as early 1941, never earlier. There was a directive in 1939 for evacuation, not extermination:


"Complementing the task already assigned to you in the directive of January 24, 1939, to undertake, by emigration or evacuation, a solution to the Jewish question as advantageous as possible under the conditions at the time, I hereby charge you with making all necessary organizational, functional, and material preparations for a complete solution of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in Europe. "

"The recent discoveries allude to a clear and unambiguous order from Hitler himself to kill the Jews. At the same time, they suggest three revisions to the current theory may be in order. First, it is now undeniable that Hitler personally ordered the overall Final Solution decision; second, the decision was not made prior to the invasion of the Soviet Union - rather, the ultimate decision was taken near the end of 1941; third, the Final Solution was not a smoothly evolving process, but rather more dependant on the vagaries of the war effort.

The Recently Discovered Documents

The two recent discoveries are:


The first is a diary entry by Joseph Goebbels of December 12, 1941. It runs as follows:
Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

With respect of the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that if they again brought about a world war, they would live to see their annihilation in it. That wasn't just a catch-word. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence. [7]


The second is a note in his own handwriting by Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler in his soon to be published diary of a meeting he had with Hitler at the latter's Headquarters (Wolfsschanze) on December 18, 1941. The notes are simply: [8]
Judenfrage / als Partisanen auszurotten

Jewish Question / to be exterminated like the partisans "


And when did al-Huysani work with Himmler and Hitler? 1941


On November 20, al-Husayni met the German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop[117] and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on November 28.[118] He asked Hitler for a public declaration that "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation, and that would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland".[115] Hitler refused to make such a public announcement, saying that it would strengthen the Gaullists against the Vichy France,[118] but asked al-Husayni to 'to lock ...deep in his heart' the following points, which Browning summarizes as follows, that

‘Germany has resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time, direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well'. When Germany had defeated Russia and broken through the Caucasus into the Middle East, it would have no further imperial goals of its own and would support Arab liberation... But Hitler did have one goal. "Germany’s objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power". (Das deutsche Ziel würde dann lediglich die Vernichtung des im arabischen Raum unter der Protektion der britischen Macht lebenden Judentums sein). In short, Jews were not simply to be driven out of the German sphere but would be hunted down and destroyed even beyond it.’[119]


Of course the timing of less than one month from meeting with al-Huysani and implementation of the Final Solution he requested is just conicidence.

You might have your nanny read this to you at bedtime:

but of course, you know it all already





< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/17/2010 1:36:01 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:21:18 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The genocide on the Jews had already been decided on dozens of years before the second world war started.


Well, not soon enough hey?  Still alotta tonnage of dick being cut every year.

_____________________________

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:28:36 PM   
Owner59


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This is the extreme anti Muslim agenda that most of the cons have here.As I pointed out in "oh Canada".

Though I`ll say this is not Kirata`s thing(he`s one of the few last reasonable conservatives on CM),this nasty, counter productive anti-Muslim shit underlies almost any posts from cons here.Wilbur being an extreme example.

But there are less overt examples of it.

Why there was an OP recently, that called on all good people to support a woman who`s radical solution to improving relations between the west and Islam, was to try to convert as many Muslims away from Islam as possible.


Ok .....I know that sounds so over top as to not be believed,but when pressed by reporters on this question,she doubles down,Ann Coulter style and confirms this clownish statement.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/309925/june-01-2010/ayaan-hirsi-ali

The OP went further to imply that if any of the good people called to support this clown,errr....victim of Muslims, didn`t come to her aid, that they also "hates her too" and were down with the few thugs who threatened her life... blather blather blah blah,etc.

There are many ways to counter the negative aspects of any culture or religion,but this is not one of them.This would be the best way to start a fight though.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/17/2010 1:32:11 PM >


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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:31:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
If god is so powerful why does he permit natural Evil in this world? Innocent children dying from earthquakes, for example.

It would be a dull universe if there wasn't any evil in it. It would also be a cruel universe. And a dead universe.

You do not know that these children were innocents. Indeed, they may have been blessed and their desires - please G-d let me die - being mercifully granted. Your perception of suffering and death as being horrendous and wrong is at fault.


Rule, I will report back when I get there and let you know.

Oh, and btw, a dull universe? God promised you a good show?

< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/17/2010 1:33:22 PM >


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:48:43 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkbound
Religion is based upon emotion, not logic.

I think it's mostly based on brain washing.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:52:56 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkbound
Religion is based upon emotion, not logic.

I think it's mostly based on brain washing.


Organized religion is pure brain washing. The need for a "god" is a basic human desire.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:55:23 PM   
Owner59


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It`s mostly political.Not in the left-right sense,but in the corporate sense.

It starts out wholesome and in good faith and then we have what we have now.Structures and power bases that make any corporation and most governments puny in comparison.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/17/2010 2:05:17 PM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:58:13 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If god is so powerful why does he permit natural Evil in this world? Innocent children dying from earthquakes, for example.

Without denying that the existence of evil raises a difficult problem, I find it difficult to put natural disasters into that category. As it seems to me, for an act to be evil requires volition. Natural events are not really actions that Nature undertakes in a volitional sense. If perhaps you attribute the volitional component to God, then the question is no longer why does evil exist. It becomes, instead, why does God commit (not "permit") evil acts.

K.



Hmmm. You make me think. Sometimes I find that annoying. Disrupts my whole day. So, instead of being annoyed by the mental labor I will consult our good friend WIKI.

Nature of natural evil
Moral evil results from a perpetrator, one who intentionally inflicts the evil. Natural evil has only victims, and is generally taken to be the result of natural processes. The "evil" thus identified is evil only from the perspective of those affected and who perceive it as an affliction. Examples include cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, acts of god, and other phenomena which inflict suffering with apparently no accompanying mitigating good. Such phenomena inflict "evil" on victims, but with no human perpetrator to blame for it.


I find it strange that wiki includes the phrase "acts of god." I would rather "omissions of god." But, that's a bias I admit to.

The classic question is Why do we suffer? Unfortunately that get's us into blame the victim for failing to follow god's laws, beginning with the Book of Amos. That is why I restricted my question to Natural Evil. We suffer, but it is difficult to blame us. The corollary question, accepting the wiki definition, is why does god permit it?

Seems cruel. I know Rule says the Universe is more fun this way but I find that unacceptable. Seems god is cruel. Or if there is no god then the Universe and Life are a crap shoot, which I do not discount.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_evil

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 1:58:51 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wpf0027
The truth of the matter is we all killed Jesus. 

I didn't kill Jesus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wpf0027
Without our sinfulness he would not have needed to die for our sins.  He died so we could be saved according to God's plan.  I think we should just be thankful that God cared enough for us lowly creatures that he gave us a path to salvation. 

Ok, I know this is a rather common Christian position but it makes absolutely no sense. I really mean zero, absolutely none. As such I'm sure there are Christians out there who don't buy it, as I pointed out before belief in the bible often isn't a binary position. An alternative theory being that this gibberish is a rationalization created by his followers to cope with his death.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 2:02:23 PM   
Owner59


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Being alive entails feeling discomforts and a bitter end.

It`s the mind fuck of all mind fucks.

We know we are going to die.

So how do we cope?


Fill in the blank..............................





< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/17/2010 2:04:35 PM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 2:07:38 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Organized religion is pure brain washing.

I'm not sure about the word pure, maybe someone can come up with a religion that doesn't use it but other than that we're on the same page.


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
The need for a "god" is a basic human desire.

Is it? Would you care to support that assertion?

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 2:09:53 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
The Spirit (Grace) comes from God. Those without Grace cannot choose. God elects those who have his Grace. Sounds more like predestination than free will. Ya think?

quote:


Verily, this is gibberish. I do not comprehend any of it - and that is not because I am dumb.


Verily, are you sure? Sorry, I could not resist the joke.

Anyway, the concept of elected grace. Consult Paul, Augustine, Luther, et al. Oh yeh, the Jehovah Witnesses too I think. they have it down to a number. Was it 144,000? Are there any JWs here who can clarify?

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 2:11:51 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
It starts out wholesome and in good faith and then we have what we have now.


I thought it generally started out with a cult leader.

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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 2:55:42 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

On November 20, al-Husayni met the German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop[117] and was officially received by Adolf Hitler on November 28.[118] He asked Hitler for a public declaration that "recognized and sympathized with the Arab struggles for independence and liberation, and that would support the elimination of a national Jewish homeland".[115] Hitler refused to make such a public announcement, saying that it would strengthen the Gaullists against the Vichy France,[118] but asked al-Husayni to 'to lock ...deep in his heart' the following points, which Browning summarizes as follows, that

‘Germany has resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time, direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well'. When Germany had defeated Russia and broken through the Caucasus into the Middle East, it would have no further imperial goals of its own and would support Arab liberation... But Hitler did have one goal. "Germany’s objective would then be solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere under the protection of British power". (Das deutsche Ziel würde dann lediglich die Vernichtung des im arabischen Raum unter der Protektion der britischen Macht lebenden Judentums sein). In short, Jews were not simply to be driven out of the German sphere but would be hunted down and destroyed even beyond it.’[119]


Of course the timing of less than one month from meeting with al-Huysani and implementation of the Final Solution he requested is just conicidence.


Well, it may be, Willbeur, but two things come to mind. Hitler was interested in getting OIL. Additionally, did he not raise the issue years earlier in Mein Kampf??

Furthermore, nothing in your quote suggests the Arab had any causative influence. Yeh, he was there. So what?

The following quote from an Amazon review of the book:

quote:

I will make no attempt to summarize this detailed, complex history. I will, however, paraphrase what I learned. The Nazis entering the halls of power in 1933 were antisemitic but, despite Hitler's barely-veiled threats in "Mein Kampf", there was no plan for genocide. Also, Nazi anti-semitism stemmed from multiple roots one of which was an ingrained pattern of belief going back centuries. Another root was no-doubt the Nazi struggle with Communists in Bavaria in the 1920's and early '30's. Many/most of these Communists were Jews. Somehow--gradually probably--the belief arose that the Jews were inveterate Communists and the Communist leadership was essentially Jewsih. Here, I think, we can smell a whiff of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion."


I skimmed through the eleven reviews of the book and found nothing that gives any credit to the Arab's involvement. So, at this point, perhaps just coincidence. Hitler met with Mussolini too. But again, what's the connection? None to the FS.

Another reviewer tells us that Browning (the author) lays it all on Hitler....

quote:

"As Browning makes clear, Hitler himself was the driving force behind the Final Solution. "His obsession with the Jewish question ensured that the Nazi commitment would not slacken, that the search for a final solution one way or another to the problem would not be neglected or be indefinitely postponed."






< Message edited by vincentML -- 7/17/2010 2:58:33 PM >


_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Glenn Beck Reminds Us That Jews Killed Jesus - 7/17/2010 2:58:26 PM   
wpf0027


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It is okay that you don't agree and think that my post or beliefs are gibberish.  I am sure I would not understand or agree with everything you say either.  I have read some of your other posts and you seem like an intelligent person.  If we all thought the exact same thing  intelligent discourse would be pointless.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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