Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:38:50 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		I have to say, I'm with julia on this one. There's a huge difference between calling someone an "asshole" or "user" and having five different words for "not a good enough sub/slave." It's not the same thing. It really is manipulative to have all these ways that subs are not behaving in a manner that is expected of them - when I first started acting on my submissive fantasies, I was a lot of things that have gotten shot down by other people. And I don't mean "not my kink" shot down, I mean "you're not a sub if you feel this way" shot down.

For instance. I am probably all of the stereotypically negative labels that julia mentioned in her OP: I'm smart enough to "top from the bottom" (though I don't believe in it), I'm more of a bedroom sub than a 24/7 sub, I've gotten upset about not having fantasies fulfilled often enough to act like a "do-me" sub, and sometimes I act out so that I can get treated roughly, which apparently makes me a brat. But I would argue that I am deeply, voraciously submissive, just as much as my always obedient, 24/7 counterparts. The difference is in timing and submission style - just like some people adore humiliation and degradation play and can't handle any pain while some find humiliation repulsive and want to be beat to next Sunday. We're all very, very different even in our most basic versions of submission, so why are some versions "purer" and more respectable than others? If someone is an obedient, hardworking sub, no one is going to criticize that. But if someone likes to rebel and resist and push back, that really does get criticized quite a bit.

Just look at the "I expect my sub to act like an adult" concept for a second. I mean, of course I agree with it, in a vague sense. But if we're all "acting like adults" all the time, then Doms shouldn't be verbally and physically humiliating subs. They shouldn't be beating them either. What is "acting like an adult," exactly? And why is it not acting like an adult to, say, refuse to obey an order and sulk in a corner all afternoon while it is acting like an adult to ignore someone completely until they come to you begging for attention? I would argue that neither was particularly typically "adult" or "mature" ways of acting, but we look at the Dom's actions as rather intelligent emotional manipulation that gets the power balance back in line while we roll our eyes at the sub and call her a brat.

I would like to take a "criticism just rolls off me" approach to it, and for the most part I do. But it really is a general attitude that unfortunately has an effect on people - especially on newbies - and I think it's a topic very worthy of discussion.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:43:27 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have this pet peeve that has been developing lately. Once in a while we have a couple of threads come up that illustrate to me that there are a myriad of labels to attach to submissives that really have no dominant counterparts, and these labels are negative ones. Now, for me, this isn't so much an issue, because I do not involve myself with people who like to label a person instead of dealing with them, but it is a reminder of just the kinda stuff submissive peoples have to put up with.

I just wanted to ask, what are the negative labels that dominants get tagged with, besides maybe "wannabe" or "fake"? Where are the threads labelled with terms meant to denigrate them? I am not suggesting that we come up with them, in fact I wouldn't like it if we did.

The fact of the matter is many of these terms did not start out with the intention of being a negative label. SAM is a bottom sort person that gets off on being beaten for being a smart ass. A bedroom submissive is someone who gets off submitting during sex, a bottom is someone who is not submissive but enjoys the bottom role, a do-me is someone who likes to be done on their terms according to their fantasies. TFTB is a bottom that is instructing a top while being in the bottom role. A brat is a submissive that enjoys being naughty and maybe her dom enjoys it too.

Why is any of the above used as an insult to people, or used to denigrate their "realness"? I can tell you, I contain multitudes and I can envision myself doing any of the above for fun depending on my partner and what he likes. I do not understand using these labels as a way to measure the character of a person, or their orientation. They were terms used to describe different dynamics, but they have been twisted into barbs.

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious
I think leadership pointed out something valid in his first post and this is one of those rare times when I agree with him.  I would add...

Perhaps because the labels that get attached to dominants most often...besides asshole...are "controlling"...because he has the obligation to lead but when he does so, most often it "should be" as the submissive wants it (the person who leads less, leads best), done in order to attain her "fullest" compliance.  Attempting to lead in the manner he stated he would from the beginning and the submissive discovering that...despite her words to the contrary in the beginning...doesn't LIKE this often leads to the label of being "controlling", "domineering"...because he sets up a dynamic in which both agree that he has the final decision but, because a decision went against what a submissive wanted and she pouted and he dared to point this out to her along with her agreement to follow and let him lead, he was domineering, "abusive"...because the dynamic/relationship was set up such that discipline/correction/punishment was part of what was agreed to but then it actually happens and he actually follows through so he is now abusive, etc.?

I'm not saying that this represents all threads brought to the board about all dominants but the boards have seen it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:43:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Julia,
There is a very real human tendency to create categories of "us versus them".  I often see this in the same way.  Also, people want to see themselves as "right" or "good" or "correct" which can often lead to the kind of categorizing of which you speak.  By drawing the line in the sand, they get to feel good about themselves. 

For me, water off a ducks back... although I understand that this one is your bugaboo.  I often say - meh, your thinking something doesn't make it true!

best,
sunshine


I said this in my OP

quote:

Now, for me, this isn't so much an issue, because I do not involve myself with people who like to label a person instead of dealing with them, but it is a reminder of just the kinda stuff submissive peoples have to put up with.


The fact of the matter is that labels do have power, and perhaps it is because I study stereotypes and power relationships, and the negative consequences of such things I am overly sensitive to it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:44:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I've never seen the word envisage used. I looked it up, too, and it's a synonym for envision. I have a pretty good academic background and always like to learn a new word. Thanks.


I had heard the word before, it just isn't used on this side of the pond much. I kinda think of it as an archaic way to say "envision"

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:50:33 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

here's a huge difference between calling someone an "asshole" or "user" and having five different words for "not a good enough sub/slave." It's not the same thing. It really is manipulative to have all these ways that subs are not behaving in a manner that is expected of them - when I first started acting on my submissive fantasies, I was a lot of things that have gotten shot down by other people. And I don't mean "not my kink" shot down, I mean "you're not a sub if you feel this way" shot down.


I would argue it is a side effect of power relationships... when you name something you have power over it.

Look at the bible story of the Garden of Eden. Adam gets imbued with the power to name all of the animals, because he has dominion over them......

Submissives often give a dominant the power to label them, but often that gets translated into every dominant having the power to label any ol submissive...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:53:53 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		To the question, I think chatroom dynamics are one place you can witness a certain negative attitude towards Doms. I used to hang around the old AOL D/s chatroom a good bit and paid attention to the dynamics because being well liked in the room was power. A few posters on CM used to be in that same room.

A Dom has to prove himself in certain ways in there before he is accepted while submissive females are generally welcomed unchallenged. If the Dom says something slightly off the mark, he will be scrutinized. I once had someone I had never met announce in a chatroom that I was a top and not a Dom. She went into this long explanation. Heh...but that was probably because there was a role conflict. She was a Domme and maybe there was a sense of competition.

I sense the competition on many levels affects what people call each other. I would have a submissive that I had decided seeing a couple of times was enough, slam me pretty hard in the room, too. She would say I beat her too hard, did this or did that. Although, she tried pretty hard to get me to see her again. Trying to be honest, I bet I probably used unkind words on submissivess who didn't recognize my "brilliance" also.

I remember that when I met someone from the room, she would often speak unkindly of others she knew...submissives and Doms, as I would too. So what does all that prove? Maybe it's human nature to denigrate those who are not friendly to us or whom we view as competition.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 3:57:04 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

because he sets up a dynamic in which both agree that he has the final decision but, because a decision went against what a submissive wanted and she pouted and he dared to point this out to her along with her agreement to follow and let him lead, he was domineering, "abusive"...because the dynamic/relationship was set up such that discipline/correction/punishment was part of what was agreed to but then it actually happens and he actually follows through so he is now abusive, etc.?


I am not talking about actual dynamics with real people deciding how they are going to manage their lives. I am talking about how these terms are thrown around here. If I agree to a dynamic, I am giving him the power to label me in many ways. He decides what level of submissive he wants and I decide whether or not I can live within those boundaries. I may mistakenly believe I can and fail to do so, but as long as he didn't lie about what he expected to have when he acquired my submission, and I did not lie about what I thought I was capable of submitting to, no harm no foul. That would mean it was an incompatibility thing...

Interesting points... it brings up some thoughts unrelated to this thread... are people dishonest with each other because of lust when they first start out in a situation like that? Or are they just dishonest with themselves... and how does time factor in with the equation.

I have direct ideas about what abuse is. There are things posted on here I would find abusive to me, but that doesn't make them abuse. I do not throw that word around lightly.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 4:01:15 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I do not hang in BDSM chatrooms, but I will take your word for how they work.

I have hung out in political chat, and that was enough to poison the chatroom well for me..

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 4:01:28 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I've never seen the word envisage used. I looked it up, too, and it's a synonym for envision. I have a pretty good academic background and always like to learn a new word. Thanks.


I had heard the word before, it just isn't used on this side of the pond much. I kinda think of it as an archaic way to say "envision"


My thing is I never use anything I can't spell or in this case....never heard of.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 4:03:00 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I've never seen the word envisage used. I looked it up, too, and it's a synonym for envision. I have a pretty good academic background and always like to learn a new word. Thanks.


I had heard the word before, it just isn't used on this side of the pond much. I kinda think of it as an archaic way to say "envision"


My thing is I never use anything I can't spell or in this case....never heard of.


OOoooo... I love to use words I cannot pronounce in real life... I am just weird like that

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 4:06:52 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I do not hang in BDSM chatrooms, but I will take your word for how they work.

I have hung out in political chat, and that was enough to poison the chatroom well for me..


I don't hang out in them anymore and find the one on CM to be pretty bad, to be honest. Speaking of political chat, I do spend lots of time on a certain newspaper writing comments, etc. I've met the editors and so on after they laughed at a few posts. I find current events and politics interesting and something I can do easily at work when I have a few minutes. Anyway, good luck with the thread.

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 4:08:15 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

OOoooo... I love to use words I cannot pronounce in real life... I am just weird like that


Heh..figures :)

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 4:31:46 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		This may sound smug, or naive, but why not just ignore the negative connotations of those labels? i think your first impulse was right- that it's not worth it to deal with people who speak in a derogatory way about other peoples' kinks. The people participating in a relationship are the only ones who need to worry about what their interaction is, how they behave, and whether this meets the other person's needs. It is not worth it to worry about what everybody else thinks, or what label is applied, as long as the relationship works for the people involved.

i try to apply that reasoning whenever anyone says something derogatory to me, for example, the word, "cunt". i know that when someone uses that word it's usually meant to shock or insult me. (I'm not talking about play here, i'm talking about general usage) But the word itself doesn't have any negative meaning, or at least it didn't start out that way. It was just a word, that referred to a thing. That is how i choose to interpret the word today, even if i know that the person meant it as an insult. i can foil them by not being insulted.

Some people are just ignorant, judgemental, crude, or whatever. i don't know if it's possible to re-educate those people from their stereotypes. Just don't take offense. If you can help it.

pam

(in reply to SylvereApLeanan)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 5:32:29 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
... deal with people who speak in a derogatory way about other peoples' kinks...

As an entirely alternate thought though, one might wonder how much of this is strictly an artifact of the internet as a communication media. For instance, I have in fact many, many times started up interesting and illuminating conversations about what a slave was IN PERSON. Many times these conversations were with people who were VASTLY different than Carol and I. Nobody's feelings got hurt... even when we struggled with significant discrepancies. Turns out it's not all that hard to talk sub/slave IN PERSON.

I suspect that's because in person, it's easier to communicate the "i'm not intending to judge you" vibe because we have body language, facial expression, and tone of voice. I also think it's easier to take offense here on the internet. So that makes me wonder how many of these derogatory communications are actually intended to be judgmental and derogatory. As I thought about this in my own head, I realized that the VAST majority of the times when someone here on CM has thought I was implying some sort of qualitative judgement, I was not.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 5:40:59 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
...the VAST majority of the times when someone here on CM has thought I was implying some sort of qualitative judgement, I was not.


That is true, and so in either case (whether any judgment was really intended or not), it would be better for the reader not to take offense, if they can help it.

Or, in other words, it's better not to take offense to things, in general.
pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 8/7/2010 5:42:42 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 5:42:10 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Julia perhaps some doms think they are playing their role by being abusive. They think abusive is the way doms act.

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 6:12:50 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I am sure some dominants believe that they are supposed to be brutish, stern, beat their chest and carry a stick... on the forums I have not noticed a lot of this.




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 6:35:25 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe they are afraid to talk to you I see it a lot...I'm sure it is more because of my kink rather then designation as submissive. But it is all a show... when you offer to meet and talk about it they change their tune. People that act that way are predictable and not worth figuring out.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 6:43:13 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Maybe they are afraid to talk to you I see it a lot...I'm sure it is more because of my kink rather then designation as submissive. But it is all a show... when you offer to meet and talk about it they change their tune. People that act that way are predictable and not worth figuring out.

Butch


I am not into men that act this way as some sort of mating display... I know that it is mostly bravado, which makes it all that more unappealing to me...

I made sure I made a certain point on my profile, I am looking for a sustainable relationship, and while I love the idea of the man in charge my expectations of these relationships is that we are both human beings with failings and imperfections. I see labels as a quick and dirty way to negate a person's humanity without dealing with them.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 6:52:12 PM   
whiteslavebitch


Posts: 479
Joined: 9/10/2007
Status: offline 		small hijack:

World English Dictionary
envision (ɪnˈvɪʒən)

— vb
( tr ) to conceive of as a possibility, esp in the future; foresee

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source

Word Origin & History

envision

1921, from en- "make, put in" + vision (q.v.). Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper



Sorry, but Julia used the word envision correctly per dictionary.com, perhaps you should check facts before correcting someone.

_____________________________

MasterK's whiteslavebitch

formally collared 1/30/09

"I give to you my everything, you've given me these loving wings." - DMB

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TFTB subs Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.125