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RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 6:57:16 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I'd say you will be quite a catch and a handful if the right guy comes along...I wish you luck and him strength..

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 7:04:52 PM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am sure some dominants believe that they are supposed to be brutish, stern, beat their chest and carry a stick... on the forums I have not noticed a lot of this.






There's too many people on both sides, acting the way they think a "dom" or a "sub" should act, instead of just being themselves and finding someone compatible.

I see this especially with "new" doms and subs who come out here and think they need to take lessons and notes on what they're supposed to say and do. After a while, I think most people outgrow that frame of mind and come to the realization that it's all about what works for them as individuals.

(Oh, and just call Northerngent a chap. He loves that.)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 7:15:58 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'd say you will be quite a catch and a handful if the right guy comes along...I wish you luck and him strength..


He will need luck, but strength, naw, I am actually really easy going, laugh often, smile even more frequently...

I am fairly sweet and acquiescent to the right man...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/7/2010 7:17:36 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

There's too many people on both sides, acting the way they think a "dom" or a "sub" should act, instead of just being themselves and finding someone compatible.

I see this especially with "new" doms and subs who come out here and think they need to take lessons and notes on what they're supposed to say and do. After a while, I think most people outgrow that frame of mind and come to the realization that it's all about what works for them as individuals.


There is a lot of truth to this

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 2:05:04 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2
.There's too many people on both sides, acting the way they think a "dom" or a "sub" should act, instead of just being themselves and finding someone compatible.

I see this especially with "new" doms and subs who come out here and think they need to take lessons and notes on what they're supposed to say and do. After a while, I think most people outgrow that frame of mind and come to the realization that it's all about what works for them as individuals.

(Oh, and just call Northerngent a chap. He loves that.)


youve put the entire process into a nutshell, right there

youre right, i think people eventually go a full circle.  they realise that they had all of necessary components afterall and then it all makes sense and off they go.

but clearly there is some value in that.  i think it was laurell who said, not until you drop the 'I' and concentrate on the 'Us' can you really go forward.  understandably enough it is all about I to start with.  I want this and that and I need this and that, furnished with fantasies and a real need and hunger to explore it for themselves.  its actually realising that it is a relationship and not all about two people trying to get their needs met.

in there is the Ds or Ms dance - the symbiosis of type.

i personally believe that a sub needs to understand how a Dominant ticks and a Dominant needs to understand how a submissive ticks for the relationship on that level to work.  but in that is also the fact that no two people are the same and that each relationship is completely unique as a result.  there is no right or wrong after that.  but until that understanding happens there can be a whole heap of right and wrong to get through and learn about.

like most learning processes its insidious.  the journey, if reflected back on, shows a long path for many, of twists turns, blind alleys and dead ends.  its all a learning process and in that process most of us learn a whole heap about ourselves too.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to marie2)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 2:47:54 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

its actually realising that it is a relationship and not all about two people trying to get their needs met.



'Two people having their needs met' is the 'relationship'. People come together out of convenience....convenience being having your needs met....whatever those needs may be....and it is a basic human need to find a partner and meet his/her needs...which again boils down to having your own needs met. You value certain things in your life....can she meet them? and vice versa.

Dropping the 'I' and concentrating on the 'us'? A responsible and aware human being is well versed in the principle of keeping your partner happy in order to keep yourself happy. There is no transition from "I" to "us"....it is always "us" because it serves the "I"....right from the start. The only people concerned with "I" ("I" in the context of your meaning) are those who have yet to understand that it can't work in the long term where you fail to recognise what she values...her needs...and working to meet them.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 4:34:28 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

I see labels as a quick and dirty way to negate a person's humanity without dealing with them.


Negate a persons humanity? Oh pleeeeeze!


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 4:49:59 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

its actually realising that it is a relationship and not all about two people trying to get their needs met.



'Two people having their needs met' is the 'relationship'. People come together out of convenience....convenience being having your needs met....whatever those needs may be....and it is a basic human need to find a partner and meet his/her needs...which again boils down to having your own needs met. You value certain things in your life....can she meet them? and vice versa.

Dropping the 'I' and concentrating on the 'us'? A responsible and aware human being is well versed in the principle of keeping your partner happy in order to keep yourself happy. There is no transition from "I" to "us"....it is always "us" because it serves the "I"....right from the start. The only people concerned with "I" ("I" in the context of your meaning) are those who have yet to understand that it can't work in the long term where you fail to recognise what she values...her needs...and working to meet them.


needs as in BDSM needs to the exclusion of all else. 

dropping the I and concentrating on the Us, should be within the capacity of most responsible and aware human beings - but for some reason some people lose all sense when they first hit this heady mix.  for some reason they lose all capacity to approach this in the same way as they would have done a vanilla relationship - the number of times ive responded to a thread and seen others do the same by saying 'all the usual relationship rules apply here too' indicates this, time and again.

the guy who came here and asked what he should do after his sub laughed at his emotional offering.   the other one who wanted to know how to 'allow' his sub pleasure too - and these examples are recent, but the same sort of threads keep coming up.

for whatever reason people take a time to realise that give and take applies here too and that to be Dominant or submissive doesnt mean you have to follow some internet spewed myth in order to achieve and maintain a functional Ds or Ms relationship.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 5:13:22 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

the guy who came here and asked what he should do after his sub laughed at his emotional offering.   the other one who wanted to know how to 'allow' his sub pleasure too - and these examples are recent, but the same sort of threads keep coming up.



With regard to the posts where people ask for advice....such as the 'emotional offering'.......

Personalities come complete with quirks and identity....background etc.....and lead to a situation where someone may have little tolerance for one thing while the next man may have all the patience in the world for that same thing. To illustrate I have absolutely no patience with people leaving rubbish lying around....or talking on a mobile on a train....or getting right up close in my personal space when we're strangers.....but I have all the sympathy in the world for drug or alcohol addiction......others will see it very differently. Unravel that and much of it is to do with backround and upbringing. So what I'm saying is this: where someone posts something that have some thinking 'not this bollocks again'.....others will have patience for it. Emotional offering? Is it necessarily harsh to say 'pull yourself together'.....or is it helping that person by not pandering to someone wanting reassurance from a group of strangers on a message board...depends upon your personality...quirks....tolerance...patience etc...or is it an interesting question leading to a discussion around how people act in certain situations? Up to you I suppose.

In terms of 'normal relationship rules'......you make your own rules....but within that broad remit there is always scope to ask for advice....it's wise to utilise the knowledge of other people......as a species it is this knowlegde sharing that has enabled us to evolve as we have done.....

Someone posts......some will tolerate it...others will have little patience for it.......nothing newsworthy in that.

And to be absolutely frank.....these types of threads are a less than subtle way of saying: "look at us....we've got this boxed off....we're the proper BDSM people". Be honest....this is all about positioning yourselves.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 6:03:52 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
.And to be absolutely frank.....these types of threads are a less than subtle way of saying: "look at us....we've got this boxed off....we're the proper BDSM people". Be honest....this is all about positioning yourselves.


i learnt all about giving advice by an amazing woman whod been around horses all of her life.  what she didnt know about horses probably wasnt worth knowing - she'd competed nationally and i believe internationally.  she kept two horses at a livery yard where i kept mine.  there were others around who gave advice left right and center, butted in, generally threw their knowledge at people and thought they were the font of all horsey wisdom

catherine only gave advice when needed, specific to what was being asked and was never ever arrogant about it.  she was happy to share what she knew if someone asked her.

i dont see arrogance on these boards.  i see people with experience and alot of knowledge and some with some serious insight and wisdom to share.  they enjoy sharing it.  i dont see big egos and i dont see people forcing their opinions down anyones throat.  a question is asked and people answer.

i have no need to position myself on a board of anonymous people i will never meet and will never know.  im really not that much of a saddo and my life really isnt that empty.  if i have something of value to share i will but only if a question is asked that i can answer with some credibility.

really, if you think that of youreself, why are you here.  or is it that you think that of everyone else.
 
actually, as an afterthought its occurred to me that since these boards are crammed full of people who by their own orientation either are wired to help or wired to guide its natural enough that they should spend a certain amount of their spare time doing just that.  for others it keeps them in touch with the life while inbetween relationships or in an hiatus.  if you actually read both of those threads i think youll find that everyone who posted had a genuine response that was pertinant and valuable to the OP.  i notice people come and go, depending on whats going on in their life.  xxadamxx is actually someone i know on the other side, we've parried a few cmails back and forth.
 

< Message edited by lally2 -- 8/8/2010 6:24:14 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 6:38:22 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

There is definately a lot of heat towards dominants, particularly male. If you haven't seen it, as another poster put it, you either aren't looking or aren't paying attention.

That said... it's frustrating to have so many specific labels for submissives/slaves and none for the owners. But it may simply be the nature of the beast with power dynamics. Those who are in control, or believe they are, are probably going to be harsher towards those they deem "unfit". It's easy to twist terms to insult people. "You're just a bottom", "Just a SAM", etc. It's just from the owner side either - subs/slaves use these terms against each other to make themselves better.

Unequal power always creates plenty of oppertunities for people to be cruel to each other. Since there is no formal system, there are no real safeguards against it. Just us.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 6:43:40 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

I see labels as a quick and dirty way to negate a person's humanity without dealing with them.


Negate a persons humanity? Oh pleeeeeze!



All words are labels. You are hungry, you decide you want that round red fruit. To tell the man behind the counter what you want, you label it. "I want an apple" or maybe a specific kind of apple. We have no idea what the apples would say about their label if they could talk.

It's not the labels that is the person. It's the human desire to twist them into something mean. We need labels, particularly on the Internet, to communicate effectively and get across ideas. It's much easier, and faster, to say "I'm female" than "I'm the kind with breasts and a vagina" even though female is a label.

I really feel that labels are getting a bad rap. They aren't the problem. The people using them are when they try to force people into boxes and cover it up with a label.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 7:09:51 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have this pet peeve that has been developing lately. Once in a while we have a couple of threads come up that illustrate to me that there are a myriad of labels to attach to submissives that really have no dominant counterparts, and these labels are negative ones. Now, for me, this isn't so much an issue, because I do not involve myself with people who like to label a person instead of dealing with them, but it is a reminder of just the kinda stuff submissive peoples have to put up with.

My question is this: For those of you who think negatively about these terms because they would not be dynamics YOU enjoy, why do you need to universalize this as somehow making another person an inferior D/s partner for everyone? Just curious


This same phenomena occurs outside the bdsm arena, as well. The labels are different but the impact and intent is the same. It's called sour grapes. It's been a part of society since the day the fox trudged away from the vineyard in defeat.


_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 8:12:01 AM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		He who wins gets to write the history   -    or come up with the labels.

In western countries - primarily patriarcal - we have the labels   -  spinster, and batchelor. We have males being assertive, and women being bitches. Basically we have the persons in power making the labels, and gosh - the ones for the people lower on the totem pole are .... not so nice.

I see the same thing in bdsm - the dominants identify a behaviour they don't like, and label it - and it isn't so nice. The submissives identify a behaviour, and because they obstentially don't have the power, they are nicer about it.   C'est la vie!

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 9:12:20 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

I see labels as a quick and dirty way to negate a person's humanity without dealing with them.


Negate a persons humanity? Oh pleeeeeze!



Yes, you may not agree with me, but in studying how people label each other, this is OFTEN why they do it... negative labels that is...

If you look at how people talk about those they want to subjugate, they come up with labels that help them do this. For example, if I want to negate someone in a political debate I might call them a Nazi. If I want to negate someone in a religious debate I might call them a zealot. If I want to negate an entire country of people I might call them something like a camel jockey or some other pejorative term. If I want to negate a woman I might call her a whore or a slut... shall I go on in demonstrating how labels are used to dehumanize people?




_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 9:15:58 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

There is definately a lot of heat towards dominants, particularly male. If you haven't seen it, as another poster put it, you either aren't looking or aren't paying attention.

That said... it's frustrating to have so many specific labels for submissives/slaves and none for the owners. But it may simply be the nature of the beast with power dynamics. Those who are in control, or believe they are, are probably going to be harsher towards those they deem "unfit". It's easy to twist terms to insult people. "You're just a bottom", "Just a SAM", etc. It's just from the owner side either - subs/slaves use these terms against each other to make themselves better.

Unequal power always creates plenty of oppertunities for people to be cruel to each other. Since there is no formal system, there are no real safeguards against it. Just us.


Perhaps I should have phrased my OP differently. It was never my intention to downplay the experience of dominant people....

I did highlight a few aspects of your posts I thought were extremely relevant... how s-types do this to each other...

And I think you are right, unequal power does create opportunities to be cruel

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 9:19:15 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

I see labels as a quick and dirty way to negate a person's humanity without dealing with them.


Negate a persons humanity? Oh pleeeeeze!



All words are labels. You are hungry, you decide you want that round red fruit. To tell the man behind the counter what you want, you label it. "I want an apple" or maybe a specific kind of apple. We have no idea what the apples would say about their label if they could talk.

It's not the labels that is the person. It's the human desire to twist them into something mean. We need labels, particularly on the Internet, to communicate effectively and get across ideas. It's much easier, and faster, to say "I'm female" than "I'm the kind with breasts and a vagina" even though female is a label.

I really feel that labels are getting a bad rap. They aren't the problem. The people using them are when they try to force people into boxes and cover it up with a label.


I am not talking about words as labels to communicate. I am talking about how labels are used for minimizing people...

There is nothing wrong with labels as you pointed out, but the use of them to minimize others is what I object to

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to AquaticSub)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 9:20:24 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

This same phenomena occurs outside the bdsm arena, as well. The labels are different but the impact and intent is the same. It's called sour grapes. It's been a part of society since the day the fox trudged away from the vineyard in defeat.


And as I pointed out, the work I do probably makes me ultra sensitive to it.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 9:22:51 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

He who wins gets to write the history   -    or come up with the labels.

In western countries - primarily patriarcal - we have the labels   -  spinster, and batchelor. We have males being assertive, and women being bitches. Basically we have the persons in power making the labels, and gosh - the ones for the people lower on the totem pole are .... not so nice.

I see the same thing in bdsm - the dominants identify a behaviour they don't like, and label it - and it isn't so nice. The submissives identify a behaviour, and because they obstentially don't have the power, they are nicer about it.   C'est la vie!



And the really strange thing is that those who are less powerful often take those labels and wear them like a badge of honor, an insider's term that they can call each other, embracing the label as their own... one example is how women call each other "bitch" as a signal that they are intimate friends....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Bratty, Bedroom, just-a-bottom, do-me,fake, SAM, TF... - 8/8/2010 9:33:22 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

I see labels as a quick and dirty way to negate a person's humanity without dealing with them.


Negate a persons humanity? Oh pleeeeeze!



Yes, you may not agree with me, but in studying how people label each other, this is OFTEN why they do it... negative labels that is...

If you look at how people talk about those they want to subjugate, they come up with labels that help them do this. For example, if I want to negate someone in a political debate I might call them a Nazi. If I want to negate someone in a religious debate I might call them a zealot. If I want to negate an entire country of people I might call them something like a camel jockey or some other pejorative term. If I want to negate a woman I might call her a whore or a slut... shall I go on in demonstrating how labels are used to dehumanize people?



You will anyway, so have at it...but open your eyes while you do so. You feel labels "negate"...but they also identify, justify, praise, compliment and give credit.

You must have had some hum-dinger labels applied to you to make you so negative and see only one side.

And you make me laugh when you say you can negate an entire country by using a derogatory term, or negate a female by calling her a slut. You do not have the voice, power, not authority to negate anyone. You just aren't that special. The fact that you feel you can negate someone by the application of a label speaks volumes of an overblown ego.


_____________________________

PICKED UPON
TECHNO-DOLT
MEMBER OF THE SUBBIE MAFIA
GRACEFULLY CHALLENGED :::::splat:::::
BOOT WHORE
VAA/S FAN

GIVES GOOD HEART (Lushy)

CREATOR OF MAYHEM (practice)


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 80
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