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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 6:30:07 PM   
Icarys


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ORIGINAL: samboct

MV

Interesting analogy, but check out Taleon's post. He came up with a good reason why we use science- because it works. If our knowledge of fundamental science was rapidly evolving, then your analogy with the Neandertal would be apt. But we've been using Newton's equations of motion for several centuries, and while they've needed some tweaks at the atomic level, they work very well for the macroscopic world we live in. (Additional exemptions for high energy fields observed in the universe noted.)

Here's my problem with your argument (and Icarys's too I think)- you want to create an exemption for God to follow the known laws of the universe. Show me some proof! Otherwise, what you're proposing violates Occam's razor- it's not a parsimonious hypothesis. You've added an extra layer of complexity, but have not gained any new insight as to the nature of the world. If the laws of science were written in that fashion, we'd have science tomes like law books, full of minutiae that accomplish little in human progress- there would always be a God exemption for a result that didn't make sense.

The idea that the creator has to be this mystical being- that's a religious belief with no evidence to support it. Is it really so unnerving to propose that human beings actually could comprehend their creator and his/her motives?


Sam

This is really a pointless argument. I can't give you anymore proof of the existence of God than to tell you to look around. Take a peek into space...Every time I see pictures of the universe it amazes me. What's the old saying.."You can lead a horse to water..."

The willingness to see beyond yourself, beyond your own ego, beyond what's two feet in front of your own face.. beyond what they can hold in their own hands that they made...It all has to be explained...calculated, figured out and written papers on so we can stand up in front of hundreds and grunt...I am man..look what I have done..Look what I have figured out!

I wonder if it's fear? Fear that you may have to change what your doing..or that you may not be in control? Fear that you aren't at the center of the universe in your own way...Who knows...I just don't care and it wouldn't make the slightest difference if he came down out of the heavens and said. "Hey..I'm God" Most of you would probably tell him.."No your not..Prove it!" lol

I love science but it doesn't have the answers for everything no matter what you want to believe.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/13/2010 6:32:10 PM >

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 7:51:33 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I love science but it doesn't have the answers for everything no matter what you want to believe.


no one said it does. And of course, religion has the answers to nothing, no matter what you want to claim.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 7:52:59 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Which thread ended when every alternative word to belief system offered up by the athiests to use instead of belief , was found to contain Belief in the definition.


Scientific Athiests, feel (believe) that thier method of viewing things has been Empiricaly Tested and Proved, as the only valid way. When it hasn't.

And they get very snotty when it is pointed out.


belief and faith are not synonymous. I believe and can prove that 1+1 = 2. There is no faith involved.


wrong...1+1=10


and 10=2 in your context, so, not wrong.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 8:01:45 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I love science but it doesn't have the answers for everything no matter what you want to believe.


no one said it does. And of course, religion has the answers to nothing, no matter what you want to claim.

That bible has plenty of answers for those who want to see. I was talking about God btw and not religion...and I do believe yet I don't go to church. I will say this..When I did go it was some of the best years of my life and I was around some of the most gentle and humble people I've ever known...

You only speak from your narrow view.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 8:03:36 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I love science but it doesn't have the answers for everything no matter what you want to believe.


no one said it does. And of course, religion has the answers to nothing, no matter what you want to claim.

That bible has plenty of answers for those who want to see. I was talking about God btw and not religion...and I do believe yet I don't go to church. I will say this..When I did go it was some of the best years of my life and I was around some of the most gentle and humble people I've ever known...

You only speak from your narrow view.



You only speak from your delusions.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 8:46:46 PM   
Icarys


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You only speak from your delusions.

Ohhhh willber


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 9:04:10 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
quote:

You only speak from your delusions.

Ohhhh willber

I see a future for you two.

K.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 9:28:03 PM   
GotSteel


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ORIGINAL: Icarys
Um yes since science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God..So anyone who doesn't believe is in fact taking part in faith.

Skepticism is not an act of faith.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/13/2010 10:51:36 PM   
MastrVran


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

MV

The idea that the creator has to be this mystical being- that's a religious belief with no evidence to support it. Is it really so unnerving to propose that human beings actually could comprehend their creator and his/her motives?


Sam


I do not find it unnerving at all. I also though can consider the possibility that we really do not know enough to rule it out. We can believe we do. We can use science to indicate its really not possible. Supposedly at some time in the past there was definitive proof. Or at least it was recorded in various religious texts. Since we have increased our abilities, God seems a lot less mysterious. "And God made man in his image." Cloning anyone?
So many miracles may well have just been simple technology. But now that would lead to the idea that a Being of at the time advanced science had visited Earth. Was he a God? Well we know he was like us. But thats for another thread.

Anyway, show me the proof this happened as believed. In the Beginning science proves the Universe started like this, come watch us start a Universe up. Same as for most people who are of the scientific mindset wanting religion to produce real proof and have God appear. Science has a need to quantify God and to study God in order to believe in God. Science also has to be able to show what it claims and do so in a way others can repeat the experiment. We obviously cannot show the start of the Universe. We can believe we know what happened.

As an example, Hawking says Time travel is possible if we can figure out how to warp time and space. Maybe once we do that, we can find a way to prove the Universe started as science claims it did. Until then, Theoretically it is believed the Universe started that way. But that is not exactly proof. It has a better foundation perhaps than God, but still, it lacks proof.

MV







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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 4:18:09 AM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Which thread ended when every alternative word to belief system offered up by the athiests to use instead of belief , was found to contain Belief in the definition.


Scientific Athiests, feel (believe) that thier method of viewing things has been Empiricaly Tested and Proved, as the only valid way. When it hasn't.

And they get very snotty when it is pointed out.


belief and faith are not synonymous. I believe and can prove that 1+1 = 2. There is no faith involved.


and we are not arguing over "1+1=2"

But over "1+1= there is no god".

Which is a belief, not an epirically tested proposition.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 4:34:33 AM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

ah, but 1+1 can equal "No" or "Off"


Not in arithmetic.


Brilliant.  simply limit your parameters, and continue to refine your limitations and it is quite possible that God does not exist in a limited and constricted universe of your own design.

My understanding has always been that the universe is without limits (therefore allowing for all things).  I could be wrong, but then what is the universe a part of?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 5:54:10 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		"This is really a pointless argument. I can't give you anymore proof of the existence of God than to tell you to look around. Take a peek into space...Every time I see pictures of the universe it amazes me. What's the old saying.."You can lead a horse to water..."


This post shows why science and religion are at each other's throats these days. In a nutshell, it's everything that scientists find so distressing about religion.

Consider...

Science has made real progress in the human condition in the past several hundred years. We have both greater understanding of the natural world, and greater control of it. We challenge diseases and pestilences that have killed millions throughout the centuries. We achieve centuries old dreams- of exploring our world and being able to fly- not to mention traveling to the moon.

All this was possible because science did NOT accept God as an explanation for the universe. When you point to what is knowable and say- God did that, you negate the possible and positive achievements of human intellect. We know what happens when religious thought dominates the world- scientific progress slows to a crawl, as religion requires thought to be in a strait jacket, and consumes a great deal of resources. Religious organizations have dominated the world for centuries, and I for one, have no desire to return to a place where they have such power again.

Consider also the difference between religion and science in terms of answers. Religion offers no hard and fast answers. "Praying to God for guidance" does not answer the reason why if you add an acid and a base together, you get a salt and a neutral solution. Religion does not provide a mechanism to find answers, and as such, drives around in circles. People following religion are forced to follow in these circles, and no progress is made. Furthermore, the followers are not accustomed to actually having their questions answered, because there is no mechanism to determine what is right and wrong. Stymied, the human sits befuddled and confused.

In contrast, science provides answers. Come up with a question- propose a hypothesis- and DO the experiment. Once knowledge is gained, it is possible to progress, to ask new questions with an expectation that they too can be answered. To date, science has been able to answer the questions about the universe without resorting to "God did it" breaking physical laws as we know them.

To the point that we don't know all the physical laws- true- we don't have a good handle on gravity for example, but there's nothing to suggest that by continuing our experiments, we'll learn about them. Being a creator doesn't imbue one with magical powers, any more than siring a child requires magic. Nor are magical powers needed to create the universe.

I suspect I may be proposing the most dangerous heresy of all-that the creator is not only potentially knowable, but understandable. No gods need apply.....


Sam

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:05:20 AM   
Icarys


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Status: offline 		Do you know that God doesn't exist?

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:09:28 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Do you know that God doesn't exist?

Absolutely.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:11:12 AM   
Icarys


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ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Um yes since science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God..So anyone who doesn't believe is in fact taking part in faith.

Skepticism is not an act of faith.


When you have doubts that something may be true..that is a belief since you are not sure..Belief in anything whether good or bad is faith. Faith is belief.

Do you know God doesn't exist? Can you prove it if you don't? If the answer is no then you have participated in faith.

Go look it up in the dictionary.


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:12:32 AM   
Icarys


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ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Do you know that God doesn't exist?

Absolutely.

Prove it!


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:18:39 AM   
new2chastity


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Status: offline 		Look, I don't really know where the universe came from and whether to believe in the religious crowd or the men in white coats but frankly, I'm going to side with the blokes who don't demand I get up early on a Sunday morning just to apologise for being born.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:20:38 AM   
samboct


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Status: offline 		Because there is nothing in the known universe that violates the law of conservation of momentum.

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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:24:05 AM   
Icarys


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ORIGINAL: samboct

Because there is nothing in the known universe that violates the law of conservation of momentum.

I guess Hawking's is right then huh?


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RE: Hawking: God Did Not Create Universe - 9/14/2010 7:26:54 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Do you know that God doesn't exist?

Absolutely.

Prove it!

How does one prove the non-existence of Pink Unicorns?


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