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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

The loudest segment of Islam is the extremists. The mainstream of Islam are not violent nutcases.  I think this would be one helluva good way for the non extremist of Islam to show us that they really disagree with the notion (not the right but the notion) of a "recreation center" being built there, and they understand it would be rubbing salt into the wounds of many Americans. 

Just a dumb chick eh?.......see you have self-pity as a tool to try and turn the conversation into something it's not!....never mind....

Anyway.....

You say yourself: "the mainstream of Islam are not violent nutcases". Agreed.

So why do they need to take action to not 'rub salt into your wounds'? They can only rub salt into your wounds if you somehow hold them accountable for what happened....seems to be a somewhat respectable version of Islamophobia you're peddling......yes...you're not blaming them all outright....but you are suggesting they owe you a favour in the guise of 'sensitivity'.....it doesn't wash I'm afraid. There's a reason why the law is there is to resolve individual disputes....and that is so that people like yourself who think they're owed something don't take matters into their own hands. I'd imagine that anyone using any sort of force to prevent this....will find themselves up in court....and that's because the law doesn't agree with you but it does promote the legal right of individual enterprise. The laws of your own land suggest you're in the wrong.

I know...I know....you have the right to be offended...of course you do.....but you have a duty...assuming you have any sort of claim to community spirit.....to be responsible in terms of when and where you choose to be offended.

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ORIGINAL: igor2003

---FR---

I see time after time where people condemn the Muslims for being "insensitive" for wanting to build their cultural center so close to Ground Zero.   It's hard to believe that those same people are showing a very similar insensitivity toward the innocent Muslims that had nothing to do with flying the planes into the twin towers.  How long are all Muslims going to be condemned and ostracized for something that they had nothing to do with?  If you want to hate people, that is your perogative...but at least try to hate the actual people that did the act and not simply hate everyone that has a similar name, skin color...or religion.

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I would bet that if numbers were available, there are bout as many nutcase non muslims as there are muslims that are nutcases.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I would bet that if numbers were available, there are bout as many nutcase non muslims as there are muslims that are nutcases.

You should get yourself over to one of the muslim countries.....I've been to a few and they couldn't be more welcoming.....and I know people who've been to Morocco...Turkey etc...and they said the same.......no one I know has encountered one 'nutter' in those countries......

You're a gambling 'dumb chick' eh.....

Here's a tip for your next bet.......it's becoming clear that actually you are prejudiced...as per the above quote....and it's all based on your limited....read ignorant.....knowledge of Islam and adherents. You'll get something like 6 to 1 on at the bookies for that......

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

I would bet that if numbers were available, there are bout as many nutcase non muslims as there are muslims that are nutcases.

You should get yourself over to one of the muslim countries.....I've been to a few and they couldn't be more welcoming.....and I know people who've been to Morocco...Turkey etc...and they said the same.......no one I know has encountered one 'nutter' in those countries......

You're a gambling 'dumb chick' eh.....

Here's a tip for your next bet.......it's becoming clear that actually you are prejudiced...as per the above quote....and it's all based on your limited....read ignorant.....knowledge of Islam and adherents. You'll get something like 6 to 1 on at the bookies for that......

You are hilarious.  Me admitting there are just as many wacko Americans as Muslims mkes me prejudiced and ignorant?

Well alrighty then......and please do not assume to know how much knowledge I have regarding Islam or anything else.

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ORIGINAL: VioletGray

I'm sure you all heard about the showdown this Saturday on the anniversary of September 11th over the mosque, so I'll cut right to the chase and explain why I'm 'pro-mosque' by using the following scenario:

Imagine that a black person buys a house, and begins to move his stuff in.  As he's doing so, the next door neighbor walks up to him and says "Please don't move in here."  When the man asks why, she says,

"Because a black man robbed me once in my house."

Would she be justified?  Would it sound reasonable for her to try to take legal action to restrict him from moving in?  How do you think he would feel?  What do you think he would say?   Let's say, for the sake of argument that he says this:

"I'm sorry that happened to you, but I'm nothing like that man, and I don't know him.  Besides, I've already paid for the house, so legally I can move in."

Now imagine her frowning and saying "Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean that you should.  You KNOW that being mugged by a black man was a traumatic experience for me, so moving in next door would be insensitive."

Now what is the problem here? The problem of course is that the trauma of the past is clouding her judgement to the point where she has lost the ability to determine between who is and is not her enemy.  Would he be justified in calling her a racist?  What if she said this:

"It's not that I'm racist against black people, it's just that ever since a black person robbed me I don't want any of them near me.  Decent, reasonable black people should surely understand why I wouldn't want any of them to live near me."

Now of course, we can understand why she wouldn't want to live next to a black person who happened to be a criminal.  But since she doesn't want ANY black people to move next to her, it is because the entire black race now holds some sort of negative connotation.

Likewise, we can assume that if you don't want ANY  'mosque' near ground zero, not just a radical Islam mosque o' terrorists, we can assume its because you have issues with Islam as a whole.  Which you're entitled to, you just have to understand when people call you a prejudiced person.

A group of religious men who hate the US and everything it stands for decided that they could best insult and damage this country by destroying some symbols of things that they hate.  This included the White House, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Center (Political, Military, Cultural and Economic symbols).

They were partial successful and killed thousands in addition to completely destroying the WTC. 

Some members of their religion around the world praised them and their accomplishments.

Years later, on the ashes of the location of the murder of thousands of those Americans, other members of the same religion who destroyed this symbol of American Economic and Cultural power decided to build a structure to commemorate their religion near the site of the first groups "success".

To some members of this particular religious group, this will seen as a confirmation of the success and correctness of the original murder and destruction.  A symbolic "Victory" memorial, so to speak.

To some citizens of the United States, this building will also be seen as a symbolic "Victory" memorial by this religious group, in their attempts to destroy the United States and kill American citizens.

These American citizens, and others who see this building as an "in your face" affront oppose the building of this structure at, or near this location for the symbolism that it inspires.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Isn't the United States supposed to be the freedom of religion and the right of a private organisation to fund its operations free from government intervention?

Seems to me it's a case of hypocrisy....and prejudice.....

As the OP said.....people are entitled to oppose it....but be honest about it.....it's discrimination on religious/cultural grounds.....and the only conclusion you can draw is that the principles of freedom of religion and private enterprise apply only to the majority.....

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


You're inviting speculation when you say: "just as many nutters as non-nutters".......where you want courtesy then be more responsible with your opinions.....

And your view on 'wacko Americans'...doesn't earn you credit when it comes to a response to your opinions on muslims.....perhaps in your logic...but not where I'm standing....

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ORIGINAL: VioletGray

I'm sure you all heard about the showdown this Saturday on the anniversary of September 11th over the mosque, so I'll cut right to the chase and explain why I'm 'pro-mosque' by using the following scenario:

Imagine that a black person buys a house, and begins to move his stuff in.  As he's doing so, the next door neighbor walks up to him and says "Please don't move in here."  When the man asks why, she says,

"Because a black man robbed me once in my house."

Would she be justified?  Would it sound reasonable for her to try to take legal action to restrict him from moving in?  How do you think he would feel?  What do you think he would say?   Let's say, for the sake of argument that he says this:

"I'm sorry that happened to you, but I'm nothing like that man, and I don't know him.  Besides, I've already paid for the house, so legally I can move in."

Now imagine her frowning and saying "Just because you CAN do it, doesn't mean that you should.  You KNOW that being mugged by a black man was a traumatic experience for me, so moving in next door would be insensitive."

Now what is the problem here? The problem of course is that the trauma of the past is clouding her judgement to the point where she has lost the ability to determine between who is and is not her enemy.  Would he be justified in calling her a racist?  What if she said this:

"It's not that I'm racist against black people, it's just that ever since a black person robbed me I don't want any of them near me.  Decent, reasonable black people should surely understand why I wouldn't want any of them to live near me."

Now of course, we can understand why she wouldn't want to live next to a black person who happened to be a criminal.  But since she doesn't want ANY black people to move next to her, it is because the entire black race now holds some sort of negative connotation.

Likewise, we can assume that if you don't want ANY  'mosque' near ground zero, not just a radical Islam mosque o' terrorists, we can assume its because you have issues with Islam as a whole.  Which you're entitled to, you just have to understand when people call you a prejudiced person.

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

Whats weird is how dismissive you so-called Liberals are of others' Constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech. Was it frothing at the mouth when leftists disagreed with the liberation of Iraq? Or didnt like Ws victory over Gore?

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Anyway, it doesn't even matter who is "against it."  The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion in this country.  It's weird to see all these so-called "Constitution-first" right-wingers frothing at the mouth when someone wants to exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

(in reply to Sanity)

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ORIGINAL: VioletGray

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ORIGINAL: WhipsAndGiggles

Thank heaven for YOU. I wish this would go viral. Mind if I send this example to some judgmental people that might benefit from it?

Of course not! Send away! :-)

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

"A black man robbed my house."
"Members of the muslim faith hyjacked four planes, crashed two of them into the WTC towers and collapsed them killing three thousand people then crashed a third into the pentagon killing scores more then crashed the last one in a field in Pa. killing all onboard."
Yeah, that's pretty close I guess.

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ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how a robber of one individual is analagous with a group of terrorists who have killed thousands.

I'm having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with building of a Cultural Center and Mosque. I'm even having trouble understanding how the purchase of a home is analagous with the building of any commerical building.

The basic principle is the same, just the scale is different.  Just like the Mini-Cooper and the Hummer both have essentially the same parts (a combustion engine, a transmission etc.) even though one is FAR larger than the other.  Or like the way gardening shears are similar to those plastic scissors you used in grade school.

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ORIGINAL: Aneirin

OK, let us look at it this way, how many people actually committed the atrocity that became known as 9/11, how many actual people, what was it four or five and their accomplices, reckoned to be how many, if three people that would mean fifteen people who committed that atrocity.Now maybe they said they did it for god or Islam, but of those fifteen people, maybe more or even less, do they in all honesty represent all of the Islamic people or for that matter all those that believe in god ?

But then God as the Muslims describe it, is different than how the Christians describe it but both have used it's name for the wrong things they do, so what is the difference beyond God being an scapegoat for the ills of man. God is an excuse nothing more, nothing less, what men do, they do for themselves.

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And the muslims should be converting to christianity or judaism when they go to Western countries; "when in Rome, do as the Romans."

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250
And the muslims should be converting to christianity or judaism when they go to Western countries; "when in Rome, do as the Romans."

Fucking seriously?

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ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Or, better yet just don't let them in anymore. I don't know about other countries but the U.S. is a mature country and we just don't "need" immigration to this country anymore. It's time to end it.

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Where do you find these numbers?  You just make them up?

Anyway, it doesn't even matter who is "against it."  The Constitution guarantees freedom of religion in this country.  It's weird to see all these so-called "Constitution-first" right-wingers frothing at the mouth when someone wants to exercise their Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

1) 70% of NYers are against it