Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: This is what made me pro-mosque


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 12:22:37 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

politesub I see it as a relayed threat. The Imam wasn't issueing the threat but rather relaying it because it served his purpose to relay that threat.
His purpose being HIS mosque project. When the project belongs to the man it's impossible to consider him an unbiased source of the feelings of the Muslim faith world wide.



Sure the Imam had his motives, but he still didnt make a direct threat. He suggested the action could possibally incite more Muslims to join the fundamentalists. Which is what many of us said before the Iraq invasion and is EXACTLY what happened.

What gets me is comments like the one on another about true Americans, overlooking the fact that many true Americans are infact Muslims. The same true Americans are also in your armed forces and being shot at by the Taliban. Many of the posts disclaiming there is any Islamophobia in the US are full of rhetoric suggesting otherwise.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 12:22:41 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

The idea that this couldn't be considered a "victory mosque" ignores centuries of history in which mosques have been erected in the locations of Muslim "victories". Not too unlike Christian history of churches and holidays being built on top of pagan holidays and sacred sites.


Great point there.  So by this logic, any Christian church built anywhere is also a "victory church" - a slap in the face to the people who lived there before.  So any new Christian churches on this continent are rubbing in the genocide of the Native Americans that made the building of the church possible.

So we're all agreed then?  No new mosques, and no new churches on this continent.  Because centuries ago, they were built as "victory monuments".

Ah but of course that would never fly.  American Christians are world-class hypocrites if they are anything at all, and the handy double standards would quickly kick in. 

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 12:26:04 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
("The Stockholm Syndrome.")

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 12:54:31 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
Suzzane nice try but location location location as they say with all real estate.

Churches built over the top of a aboriginal temple or graveyard would be the equivalent.

Built ON THE SITE of a victory.

If the a Cavalry Chapel and community center is built on Wounded Knee, or Sand Creek, that would be the same.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:07:38 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Suzzane [sic] nice try but location location location as they say with all real estate.

Churches built over the top of a aboriginal temple or graveyard would be the equivalent.

Built ON THE SITE of a victory.



Ah.  So the Islamists defeated the Burlington Coat Factory chain?   How sneaky of them, attacking the Twin Towers when their real strategic aim was to drive out winter apparel outlet competitors in preparation for their expected final assault on New York's fashion empire.

This "victory mosque" red herring can be bent, spindled and mutilated to serve whatever aims the rhetorical manipulator wishes.  Pointless to argue, I guess.

Fill me in though, please, on what grand "Islamist victories" took place in Murfreesborough Tennessee, and all the other places across this great land the provincial Christian jihadists are opposing mosques.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:10:37 PM   
footsniffa


Posts: 14
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline
Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM.

"flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"?

Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that.

And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget.

The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:26:11 PM   
SuzanneKneeling


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa
Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again.


You hit the nail in your final sentence.  The GOP, and its propaganda arm Fox which donated a million dollars to the Republicans this year after the conservative Supreme Court put our country up on eBay, realized this would be a great wedge issue.  They know that Obama and the Democrats have principles, and that one of them is that freedom of religion applies to even non-Christians.  So they would give some support to this group.  Thus the GOP could reap huge electoral rewards among the bigoted uneducated crowd, which in the end is their base. 

The funniest part, which demonstrates the integrity deficit at Fox and the unending gullibility of its viewership, is that Fox's demagoguing pundits started out painting one of the cultural center's main financial backers as a "terrorist funder".  Then word got down to them that this "terrorist funder" was FauxNews Corp's second largest stockholder.  They deftly moved on and found new bogeymen of course, as is their standard M.O.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/23/stewart-fox-prince-alwaleed_n_692234.html

Just a sad simulation of a news organization, a sadder political client (the GOP) and the saddest of rube-viewers who feed and fund the whole disinformation system. 

(in reply to footsniffa)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:36:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Saying that extremists will point to that hypocrisy and use it as an effective recruiting tool is just making up shit


FYP

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:38:07 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
Strawman Fail

I have no issue with mosques being built in Murfreesbourough or anyplace else that I have heard about them going in other than those places where the issue is the same as it is for any church growth. Do they have the design plan and meet the codes for traffic impact etc. We have a local mosque asking to expand and the issue has been does the land use meet the community design standards more than anything else.

If they have that all in place build away anyplace that is not hallowed ground for someone else.

Victory mosque idea is not a red herring but a historical fact proven many times over by mosques that have actual prayers thanking god for their vicories over their enemies. Mosques built directly on top of Soloman's Temple Mound, Temples of Zoaster in Persia and Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.

The list of mosques built on the former temples and churches of other religions is documented beyond argument as a regular practice.
If needed I can list 50-70 locations/ instances easily enough.

Your brilliant shift to NOT ALL MOSQUES are built to commemorate victories displays a huge grasp of logical fallacies. Since of course I never claimed all mosques were, that was your little twist to the argument to build another failed strawman.

There are literally hundreds of mosques built to mark the victory of battles, built on the sites of former churches and temples of every major religion.
Roman Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Zoastrian, Coptic Christian, Greek Orthodox.




(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:38:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

The original post here sums the situation up so eloquently.  I wish those 70% of Americans could see how foolish they're being. 

Or to give it another flavor: 

I was cheated in a business transaction nine years ago by a group of 19 Republicans, and lost thousands of dollars due to their fraudulent business practices.  So I have now an open wound when it comes to Republicans.  Therefore, out of sensitivity to my trauma, all OTHER Republicans - including those who would never dream of cheating someone and only want to live their lives honestly - should refrain from starting businesses in my city.  I don't ask for much - just that they rearrange their lives entirely to cater to and indulge my carefully-nursed grudge.  There are plenty of other cities they could move to and have their businesses.  It's nothing personal.  Well, maybe it is, but they should still live their lives tiptoeing around my bad experience.  Just because they're Republicans, you know.  It's not too much to ask, is it?  Just a little sensitivity.  And besides, they're just Republicans.  It's not like they're human beings.




Put in those terms most of the liberals on this site would agree. The rest of them would throw in a death wish or two.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:40:16 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Saying that extremists will point to that hypocrisy and use it as an effective recruiting tool is just making up shit


FYP


willbur.....I thought you said you never edited posts????
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3400863


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:45:13 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Built ON THE SITE of a victory.


What?

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:45:53 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Saying that extremists will point to that hypocrisy and use it as an effective recruiting tool is just making up shit


FYP


willbur.....I thought you said you never edited posts????
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3400863



Did you not see the FYP?


_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:52:23 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
hertz if you can't place the context of my statement by going back and reading it I'm sorry I'm not going to explain it to you.


Parts of one of the airplans were found on the roof of that building. to me that makes it part of the scene.

I'll go out on a limb here if an identifiable chunk of one of the airplanes or a body or a piece of the towers larger than 50 lbs landed on the property it's part of ground zero to me.



(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 1:57:01 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

I'll go out on a limb here if an identifiable chunk of one of the airplanes or a body or a piece of the towers larger than 50 lbs landed on the property it's part of ground zero to me.



My mistake. I didn't realise you were using your own special definition of Ground Zero.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 2:08:46 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
Well offer another one and we can debate that. It's not my own special one alot of people have expressed the idea in different ways, but fact remains pieces of flight 175 landed on the roof of the building in question.

In fact this picture shows a piece of 175 found at the corner of Chruch and Murray on the other side of the building in question.

See picture
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/6310312271.jpg

That's 3 blocks away





< Message edited by Archer -- 9/13/2010 2:09:37 PM >

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 2:19:04 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

The original post here sums the situation up so eloquently.  I wish those 70% of Americans could see how foolish they're being. 

Or to give it another flavor: 

I was cheated in a business transaction nine years ago by a group of 19 Republicans, and lost thousands of dollars due to their fraudulent business practices.  So I have now an open wound when it comes to Republicans.  Therefore, out of sensitivity to my trauma, all OTHER Republicans - including those who would never dream of cheating someone and only want to live their lives honestly - should refrain from starting businesses in my city.  I don't ask for much - just that they rearrange their lives entirely to cater to and indulge my carefully-nursed grudge.  There are plenty of other cities they could move to and have their businesses.  It's nothing personal.  Well, maybe it is, but they should still live their lives tiptoeing around my bad experience.  Just because they're Republicans, you know.  It's not too much to ask, is it?  Just a little sensitivity.  And besides, they're just Republicans.  It's not like they're human beings.

It's insane.  But that's our country these days.  Reason just isn't on the table much anymore.  All we get is FauxNews-style hatemongering and demagoguing.



Your analogy and logic is suspect.

Please read my analogy for a more accurate summation.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 2:19:04 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
Imam: I Wouldn't Have Picked the Mosque Site If I'd Known Fight It Would Cause

The imam in the middle of the Ground Zero mosque controversy said Sunday he would never have picked that location if he knew it would create the conflict it did, but he has no plan to move the Islamic center from the proposed site two blocks from where the World Trade Center fell.

"I would never have done it. I'm a man of peace. I mean, the whole -- the whole objective of peace work is not to do something that would provoke controversy," said Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf.

But the final decision about where the Park51 community center and mosque will be constructed "will be predicated on what is best for everybody," Rauf said.

Rauf, who was interviewed for ABC's "This Week," also accused "certain politicians" of using the project for their "political ambitions." He pointed to Sarah Palin's Tweet asking for him to reconsider the location as "disingenuous, to a certain extent."

"The fact of the matter is, A, this has been used for political purposes. And there's growing Islamophobia in this country. How else would you describe the fact that mosques around the country are now being attacked?" he asked.

Rauf said the debate over the location of the mosque "has been, to a certain extent, hijacked by the radicals. The radicals on both sides." He repeated his claim that to move the proposed mosque now would gin up Muslim radicals and leave the Muslim world with the impression that "Islam is under attack in America."

"This will put our people -- our soldiers, our troops, our embassies, our citizens -- under attack in the Muslim world, and we have expanded and given and fueled terrorism," Rauf said.

That argument didn't win much credence with former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, who was in office on Sept. 11, 2001, and was even trapped for a short time in a building a block from the proposed mosque site.

"I think that tactic is not the kind of tactic I would have expected from an imam who is featured as a man of conciliation," Giuliani said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

The imam said "if he doesn't get his way, there could be significant and very dangerous violence. Those are very, very strong words and to enter a sort of suggestion of a threat into this, I worry about this as the kind of tactics he pursues," Giuliani said.

Rauf said he never made a threat and never would, but the movements and the discourse in the United States "are being watched very, very closely. And if we make the wrong move, it will only expand and strengthen the voice of the radicals and extremists."

In a recent poll taken by the Washington Post, 49 percent of respondents said they had an unfavorable view of Islam.

Rauf said he thinks that Muslims in the U.S. today now have a heightened concern about a spike of Islamophobia, "which is reaching and perhaps even possibly exceeding what happened right after 9/11."

But Giuliani said Islamophobia has nothing to do with moving the mosque, which he argued is on "sacred ground."

"The people he's hurting here most are the families that have lost loved ones down there. They don't all feel that way but 80 percent or 90 percent feel extremely hurt by this and it's making them relive the pain. They should be the ones to get the most consideration. Not the imam, not me, not the president, not the mayor. They're the ones that are the most affected by this," he said.


I wont appologize. I see all this as a semi-veiled threat that if we dont build there, horrible things will happen.

It was back in August that the Imam's wife stated, bluntly, that the site would never be moved...

In New York, Rauf’s wife and a co-leader of the proposed project known as Park51 said Friday that organizers are sticking with the plan despite protests.
“Dropping the plan is definitely not an option at all,” Daisy Khan, head of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, told The Associated Press in a brief phone interview.
She said the organizers were not considering scaling back the project or changing locations, but are consulting more closely with American Muslim leaders because they realize the uproar surrounding the center is affecting Muslims nationwide.
“We know that we have the right to do this, but what is right for the larger community, or the larger good of the larger Muslim community?” she said.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/darticlen.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2010/August/middleeast_August393.xml§ion=middleeast

So where exactly is their concern? With the community at large or just the Muslim community?

As it was pointed out in the following article...

Americans will fight to the death for their rights. The Muslim community has every right to build their center and enjoy their Constitutional rights. But what needs to come of this constitutional and community exercise is something that works for everyone.


But, when americans feel their rights are being ignored as a whole to prevent a terror from striking again... it just won be a happy ending for anyone.

Many want to scold others by saying this country was founded on the premise of religious freedom. It was also founded on the premise of freedom of tyranny.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 9/13/2010 2:22:45 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 2:28:07 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I like this analogy better:

A group of religious men who hate the US and everything it stands for decided that they could best insult and damage this country by destroying some symbols of things that they hate.  This included the White House, the Pentagon, and the World Trade Center (Political, Military, Cultural and Economic symbols).

They were partial successful and killed thousands in addition to completely destroying the WTC. 

Some members of their religion around the world praised them and their accomplishments.

Years later, on the ashes of the location of the murder of thousands of those Americans, other members of the same religion who destroyed this symbol of American Economic and Cultural power decided to build a structure to commemorate their religion near the site of the first groups "success".

To some members of this particular religious group, this will seen as a confirmation of the success and correctness of the original murder and destruction.  A symbolic "Victory" memorial, so to speak.

To some citizens of the United States, this building will also be seen as a symbolic "Victory" memorial by this religious group, in their attempts to destroy the United States and kill American citizens.

These American citizens, and others who see this building as an "in your face" affront oppose the building of this structure at, or near this location for the symbolism that it inspires.

I think this analogy fits the situation much better.

Firm


Let's break down your analogy into its simplest terms.

You've taken great pains to use the phrase "some members" in an apparent attempt to show your lack of bias.

But then you go on to condemn those who had nothing to do with the terror attacks, and who have in fact vociferously denounced them, as somehow reveling in the success of those attacks. 


Not at all.  Where have I condemned them?  I suspect that your judgment is being colored by your ideological position.

I've made no statements on this mosque, other than this one post you quoted.

I am simply attempting to show those of you who think that there is no issue at all, why some people have a problem with it - in the least inflammatory way possible.

The fact that you and some others make all kinds of accusations of racism, prejudice et al only proves your lack of empathy and understanding for Americans who do not wish the mosque built at this specific location.

In other words, your sympathy seems to be with anyone else, other than the majority of the Americans who do not wish the mosque built.  In fact, you seem to display an open dis-taste and dis-like of that majority of Americans.

And you wonder why so many people believe that the liberal left is "anti-American" in its basic worldview?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 2:31:06 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well offer another one and we can debate that.



Genuinely, I have been thinking of  Ground Zero as the actual space the towers occupied prior to the attack on the basis that this would be a clear legally-definable space. I was completely unaware that substantial parts of the wreckage had been thrown to that distance from the site, and on reflection I can see what you are saying, even if I am not entirely in agreement with it (if only because 50lbs is a bit arbitrary. Why not 100lbs, or 2lbs?).

I mistook you for of those people who have extended the area of Ground Zero for what I see as political ends. I apologise.

EDITED: Accidently changed original to metric units



< Message edited by hertz -- 9/13/2010 2:33:01 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: This is what made me pro-mosque Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109