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RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 2:38:09 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well offer another one and we can debate that. It's not my own special one alot of people have expressed the idea in different ways, but fact remains pieces of flight 175 landed on the roof of the building in question.

In fact this picture shows a piece of 175 found at the corner of Chruch and Murray on the other side of the building in question.

See picture
http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/6310312271.jpg

That's 3 blocks away


The rest of flight 175, of course, landed at ground zero. Wouldn't they need to be building a mosque there (perhaps a big fancy one with a musezzin wailing away in a minaret) rather than three blocks away for this to be a victory mosque? You know, like they did with the hagia sophia?
I mean, they've already demolished what was on the site before*. They'd just have to bulldoze the rubble before they start to build.

*(Obviously a site of worship, the way some people are talking. Still, perhaps for neocon monetarists, the WTC was a place of worship...)

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Profile   Post #: 101
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:06:58 PM   
Archer


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hertz , really I'm not trying to be too arbitrary, I figure at 50 lbs that would limit the distance more reasonably than 2 lbs. That 50 lb thing was the out on a limb thing.

I figure 50 lbs is a pretty big chunk, I really wanted to avoid the whole well dust flew all the way to Boston arguments. Chunks that weigh a third or half what a person weighs I figure are significant pieces of debris. I put a number on what I considered to be a piece significant enough to be considered part of the site.

Again I'm in the same area (ballpark) as President Obama here, all the legal right to build it where they want. I find their choice to build it anyway considering the feelings expressed by the community distastefull and am willing to say so.

To those who are protesting other mosques I have no connection. I find their extended arguments false. I'd support a mosque right up at the nearest major corner from my house with no problems, so long as they didn't take over and tear down an active church to do it. LOL. So that apartment complex, or the vet's office 1/3 mile from my house no problem so long as the traffic plan works out. I find the Murfreesborough Mosque protests and pretty much all the others to be shamefull to us as Americans.

Moonhead a pointless difference without a distinction.










(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:18:15 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Well offer another one and we can debate that.



Genuinely, I have been thinking of  Ground Zero as the actual space the towers occupied prior to the attack on the basis that this would be a clear legally-definable space. I was completely unaware that substantial parts of the wreckage had been thrown to that distance from the site, and on reflection I can see what you are saying, even if I am not entirely in agreement with it (if only because 50lbs is a bit arbitrary. Why not 100lbs, or 2lbs?).

I mistook you for of those people who have extended the area of Ground Zero for what I see as political ends. I apologise.

EDITED: Accidently changed original to metric units





Thats not surprising Hertz. there has been a massive campaign to get people to believe that the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition by the evil American Government (or Maybe Jews or a shadow governemnt, but definatly NOT by hijacked airplanes).

They have repeated the Lie that the towers fell into thier own footprint over and over. It is something they need to believe. IT IS NECCESSARY FOR THIER CLAIMS TO WORK. Like the Jackasses with tower 7, IF derbis and flaming fuel was coming down in a several block radius thier claims seem retarded (which they are).



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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:20:32 PM   
luckydawg


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[/quote]


*(Obviously a site of worship, the way some people are talking. Still, perhaps for neocon monetarists, the WTC was a place of worship...)
[/quote]

Not of actuall worship but of massive symbolic meaning. THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. Its a valid analogy.

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Profile   Post #: 104
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:23:49 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The idea that this couldn't be considered a "victory mosque" ignores centuries of history in which mosques have been erected in the locations of Muslim "victories". Not too unlike Christian history of churches and holidays being built on top of pagan holidays and sacred sites. The intent again may not be the whole story, intent might be tolerance and interfaith dialog, the reality is there will be those Islamists who will see it as a victory mosque and a monument to the terrorists.

Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam.



The big problem here is that you are STILL stereotyping Muslims. Centuries ago, Muslim armies used to do this which proves, I guess, that it's just the sort of thing those darn Muslims do.  .  I'm not the biggest expert on history, but I'm assuming that previous "victory mosques" were built after actual victories.  Nothing was conquered here, no governments changed hands,  no territorial boundaries shifted.  Two buildings and thousands of people were killed not by an army, but by 14 future Darwin Award candidates.

Also, you said "Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam." Um, I realize that sometimes I miss the obvious, but why do we care?  What I DO know is that we have reason to believe that they are using the controversy as a recruitment tool.  They pointing to it and going "See? The Americans HATE you!"


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Ok, what if a bunch of Presbytarians blew up Messina, you know, that big rock that muslims march around once a year and then, a few years later "other" Presbytarians wanted to build a church at that site?
That'd be cool, right?



Wow, just when I thought you wouldn't have anything constructive to add! :-) I'm glad you brought this up though, because it brings up a point that people seem to overlook quite a bit in this debate.  And that point is this:

What other countries do as far as this matter is concerned is irrelevant.  This is about us, and how we hold ourselves to our own standards.  We can't let irrational thought as a result of their actions make us ignore our own principles.  If we allow law or pressure to stop us from building the mosque in this place, we are allowing outside forces to make us behave less American.

< Message edited by VioletGray -- 9/13/2010 3:29:16 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:30:58 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Two buildings and thousands of people were killed not by an army, but by 14 future Darwin Award candidates.


Out of curiosity, and perhaps a bit off topic, but, do you honestly believe it only took 14 people to plan and excute all that damage?

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Profile   Post #: 106
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:34:38 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa

Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM.

"flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"?

Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that.

And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget.

The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again.



Gee.  Such tolerance and love ...

You said

.... Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding.

I read:

... a bunch of fucking rubes ...

... pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs ...

... the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks.

... the rubes getting suckered ...

Yeah, I see a lot of ignorance and bigotry on this thread, too.

Firm



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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:35:22 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Two buildings and thousands of people were killed not by an army, but by 14 future Darwin Award candidates.


Out of curiosity, and perhaps a bit off topic, but, do you honestly believe it only took 14 people to plan and excute all that damage?


Of course not, but what different does it make? It was an act of terrorism, It wasn't a war.  And if it was meant to be the start of a war, then it's a little early for them to be declaring victory, dontcha think?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:40:36 PM   
luckydawg


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Joined: 9/2/2009
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quote:

Also, you said "Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam." Um, I realize that sometimes I miss the obvious, but why do we care? What I DO know is that we have reason to believe that they are using the controversy as a recruitment tool. They pointing to it and going "See? The Americans HATE you!"



Any chance that the Mosque going up on the site damaged by thier attack would be seen as a victory by the Jihadists? That sermons about how weak the americans are would induce people to join up. That victory is approching? and a sign to Moderate Muslims all around the world, that America is weak and they better give the Jihadists respect?


I can imagine a recruiting video where they stand over the WTC ruins listening to the Call to Prayer, being broadcast from the mosque built on the site of a building ruined in the attack, against the wishes of most Americans, New Yorkers, and significant Numbers of Moderate Muslims, on Friday evening, being rather dramatic and inspiring. They could even Burn a flag there.






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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:42:16 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Victory mosque idea is not a red herring but a historical fact proven many times over by mosques that have actual prayers thanking god for their vicories over their enemies. Mosques built directly on top of Soloman's Temple Mound, Temples of Zoaster in Persia and Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.

The list of mosques built on the former temples and churches of other religions is documented beyond argument as a regular practice.



You omit the fact that Solomons Temple was destroyed by the Romans. You Omit the fact that The Muslims didnt build the Hagia Sophia, just removed the Chritian symbolism. Just as the Christians later did with Cordoba, which was actually bought by the Muslims, not destroyed as someone else claimed on another thread. As for Persia, the same thing happened as with the spread of Christianity. Islam became the main religion over a period of time. I am unsure of any victory Mosques that were built there. You are right that some Muslims built victory Mosques, but then again so did some Christians, especially the Normans when they invaded England.

You will be hard pushed to find any historical proof for your claims, other than right wing blogs on the internet. Therefore, your herring is still red, despite what colour you are painting it.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:43:16 PM   
footsniffa


Posts: 14
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa

Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM.

"flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"?

Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that.

And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget.

The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again.



Gee.  Such tolerance and love ...

You said

.... Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding.

I read:

... a bunch of fucking rubes ...

... pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs ...

... the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks.

... the rubes getting suckered ...

Yeah, I see a lot of ignorance and bigotry on this thread, too.

Firm




Yep, gullible fucking rubes. I forgot to add the qualifier, "diabetic" to pasty, white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs. My bad.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:45:09 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

The big problem here is that you are STILL stereotyping Muslims. Centuries ago, Muslim armies used to do this which proves, I guess, that it's just the sort of thing those darn Muslims do.  .  I'm not the biggest expert on history, but I'm assuming that previous "victory mosques" were built after actual victories.  Nothing was conquered here, no governments changed hands,  no territorial boundaries shifted.  Two buildings and thousands of people were killed not by an army, but by 14 future Darwin Award candidates.

Also, you said "Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam." Um, I realize that sometimes I miss the obvious, but why do we care?  What I DO know is that we have reason to believe that they are using the controversy as a recruitment tool.  They pointing to it and going "See? The Americans HATE you!"




Sheikh Mohammed said that the purpose of the attack on the Twin Towers was to "wake the American people up." Sheikh Mohammed said that if the target would have been strictly military or government, the American people would not focus on the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel against the Palestinian people and America's self-serving foreign policy that corrupts Arab governments and leads to further exploitation of the Arab/Muslim peoples.


You can find the above statement on page 11, as paragraph 15, under the heading "Purpose of the 9/11 Attacks" in Defense Trial Exhibit 941 from the trial United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A

Sounds like victory to me.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/13/2010 4:23:23 PM >


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:54:21 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Victory mosque idea is not a red herring but a historical fact proven many times over by mosques that have actual prayers thanking god for their vicories over their enemies. Mosques built directly on top of Soloman's Temple Mound, Temples of Zoaster in Persia and Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.

The list of mosques built on the former temples and churches of other religions is documented beyond argument as a regular practice.



You omit the fact that Solomons Temple was destroyed by the Romans. You Omit the fact that The Muslims didnt build the Hagia Sophia, just removed the Chritian symbolism. Just as the Christians later did with Cordoba, which was actually bought by the Muslims, not destroyed as someone else claimed on another thread. As for Persia, the same thing happened as with the spread of Christianity. Islam became the main religion over a period of time. I am unsure of any victory Mosques that were built there. You are right that some Muslims built victory Mosques, but then again so did some Christians, especially the Normans when they invaded England.

You will be hard pushed to find any historical proof for your claims, other than right wing blogs on the internet. Therefore, your herring is still red, despite what colour you are painting it.


Horse hockey,

There are plenty of examples.

And I find it interesting that you are trying to claim that the conversion of a Christian church to a Moslem mosque doesn't count.  In what universe doesn't that count?

How about Dome of the Rock?

The entire concept is well known and documented in history.  Maybe there aren't many internet cites because it's the kind of thing that hasn't (until now) been something that is regularly discussed in non-professional circles.

And you are attempting to short circuit anyone who posts or writes about it in anything other than a professional historical site, by attempting to classify anyone who researches into books, and posts them on a non-pro site.

Weak.  Weak as hell.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 3:58:02 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Two buildings and thousands of people were killed not by an army, but by 14 future Darwin Award candidates.


Out of curiosity, and perhaps a bit off topic, but, do you honestly believe it only took 14 people to plan and excute all that damage?


Of course not, but what different does it make? It was an act of terrorism, It wasn't a war.  And if it was meant to be the start of a war, then it's a little early for them to be declaring victory, dontcha think?



In the minds of those who lost someone, it could make all the difference. A random act, such as Oklahoma, with only a few people, can be... viewed as an isolated attack. This was planned, methodically, for years, before being implemented, with disasterous results.

No, not every Muslim is a terrorist. But we do give victims of an attack time to heal. The healing of those involved in this attack is still an ongoing process. This wasnt a random act, but a methodically planned one. Some of the missing have never been found. Im not sure there will ever be enough healing to repair the damage from that day. But, it does strike me as slightly insensitive to demand that people just "get over it".

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to VioletGray)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 4:01:17 PM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline
The religion itself is not the enemy. Extremists are the enemy. That madman preacher who got so much publicity for threatening to burn copies of the Koran on Sept 11 is as much of an extremist as any on the Muslim side. And then, we have that freak Fred Phelps who actually is burning them. How loud do you think they'd shriek if some radical Imam threatened to burn copies of the Bible on Christmas?  Right. Extremists are the enemy, not Islam.
Besides, it's replacing one that was there already, which got destroyed along with everything else there. So what's new?


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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 4:03:13 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa

Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM.

"flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"?

Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that.

And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget.

The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again.



Gee.  Such tolerance and love ...

You said

.... Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding.

I read:

... a bunch of fucking rubes ...

... pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs ...

... the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks.

... the rubes getting suckered ...

Yeah, I see a lot of ignorance and bigotry on this thread, too.

Firm




Yep, gullible fucking rubes. I forgot to add the qualifier, "diabetic" to pasty, white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs. My bad.




quickest ignore ever.

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 4:10:47 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

quote:

Also, you said "Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam." Um, I realize that sometimes I miss the obvious, but why do we care? What I DO know is that we have reason to believe that they are using the controversy as a recruitment tool. They pointing to it and going "See? The Americans HATE you!"



Any chance that the Mosque going up on the site damaged by thier attack would be seen as a victory by the Jihadists? That sermons about how weak the americans are would induce people to join up. That victory is approching? and a sign to Moderate Muslims all around the world, that America is weak and they better give the Jihadists respect?


I can imagine a recruiting video where they stand over the WTC ruins listening to the Call to Prayer, being broadcast from the mosque built on the site of a building ruined in the attack, against the wishes of most Americans, New Yorkers, and significant Numbers of Moderate Muslims, on Friday evening, being rather dramatic and inspiring. They could even Burn a flag there.



Um.. no.  First of all, it's two blocks away.  Second, think about what you know of recruitment for a country's military.  Isn't it usually along the lines "Serve your country" or "Help fight off this threat to our way of life."   In this country, they say "Join the Army because in return we'll give you benefits and help you learn a skill for when you get out."  But not once have I ever heard "join the military because the other side is pussies!" 

In fact line #2 makes more sense in this case because we are over there killing them every day.  Now doesn't that fit perfect with them pointing to this debate is a recruitment tactic?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray

The big problem here is that you are STILL stereotyping Muslims. Centuries ago, Muslim armies used to do this which proves, I guess, that it's just the sort of thing those darn Muslims do.  .  I'm not the biggest expert on history, but I'm assuming that previous "victory mosques" were built after actual victories.  Nothing was conquered here, no governments changed hands,  no territorial boundaries shifted.  Two buildings and thousands of people were killed not by an army, but by 14 future Darwin Award candidates.

Also, you said "Islamists will see the mosque as a victory mosque regardless of the intent of the Imam." Um, I realize that sometimes I miss the obvious, but why do we care?  What I DO know is that we have reason to believe that they are using the controversy as a recruitment tool.  They pointing to it and going "See? The Americans HATE you!"




Sheikh Mohammed said that the purpose of the attack on the Twin Towers was to "wake the American people up." Sheikh Mohammed said that if the target would have been strictly military or government, the American people would not focus on the atrocities that America is committing by supporting Israel against the Palestinian people and America's self-serving foreign policy that corrupts Arab governments and leads to further exploitation of the Arab/Muslim peoples.


You can find the above statement on page 11, as paragraph 15, under the heading "Purpose of the 9/11 Attacks" in Defense Trial Exhibit 941 from the trial United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui Criminal No. 01-455-A

Sounds like victory to me.

Firm



Well it shouldn't.  It should sound like a violent political stunt.  9/11 made us go over there and blow them up lots.  Besides...

Sheik Mohammed is not the one building the mosque!  It's a peaceful guy, appointed by a republican!

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 4:12:39 PM   
footsniffa


Posts: 14
Joined: 3/9/2004
Status: offline


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: footsniffa

Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding. I never thought I'd see teabaggers on CM.

"flying carpets"? "convert to christianity"? "stay out of our country"?

Yeah, go ahead and say you're not bigoted after making statements like that.

And stop being played like a bunch of fucking rubes. This center has been planned for a long fucking time. Just last year many of the blowhards who are now stirring up the hate of the pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs were praising the Imam and his plans for the center (Ingraham, Beck). This has been coming down the pipe for years, and muslims have been praying in the building since it was purchased. The hallowed ground that was the Burlington Coat Factory that went out of business is thankfully being developed as it had been on the market since about that day we'll never forget.

The only reason this is suddenly an issue is some of the hucksters found another way to squeeze some more money out of the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks. Others think this is a great issue for November too but this is mainly the rubes getting suckered yet again.



Gee.  Such tolerance and love ...

You said

.... Wow, the amount of ignorance and bigotry in this thread is fucking astounding.

I read:

... a bunch of fucking rubes ...

... pasty white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs ...

... the rubes' fixed incomes and unemployment checks.

... the rubes getting suckered ...

Yeah, I see a lot of ignorance and bigotry on this thread, too.

Firm




Yep, gullible fucking rubes. I forgot to add the qualifier, "diabetic" to pasty, white folks with their fanny packs and lawn chairs. My bad.




quickest ignore ever.


*yawn*

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 4:17:40 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

In the minds of those who lost someone, it could make all the difference. A random act, such as Oklahoma, with only a few people, can be... viewed as an isolated attack. This was planned, methodically, for years, before being implemented, with disasterous results.

No, not every Muslim is a terrorist. But we do give victims of an attack time to heal. The healing of those involved in this attack is still an ongoing process. This wasnt a random act, but a methodically planned one. Some of the missing have never been found. Im not sure there will ever be enough healing to repair the damage from that day. But, it does strike me as slightly insensitive to demand that people just "get over it".


Do you think McVeigh was coming back from the grocery store and thought "Oh! While I'm here I should blow that up!" Considering most people don't just have an exploding van on hand, I would say this took at least some degree of planning.

and your remark about "just get over it" is just what I mean.  The point is that they are misplacing the blame.  "just get over it" only makes sense if you believe that Islam was the culprit. An evil organization was the culprit.  If it was a monument to Al-Qaeda I would be a little more sympathetic.

I need to go buy pickled eggs! It's hard to get away from you people!

< Message edited by VioletGray -- 9/13/2010 4:18:28 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: This is what made me pro-mosque - 9/13/2010 4:19:05 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You omit the fact that Solomons Temple was destroyed by the Romans. You Omit the fact that The Muslims didnt build the Hagia Sophia, just removed the Chritian symbolism. Just as the Christians later did with Cordoba, which was actually bought by the Muslims, not destroyed as someone else claimed on another thread. As for Persia, the same thing happened as with the spread of Christianity. Islam became the main religion over a period of time. I am unsure of any victory Mosques that were built there. You are right that some Muslims built victory Mosques, but then again so did some Christians, especially the Normans when they invaded England.

You will be hard pushed to find any historical proof for your claims, other than right wing blogs on the internet. Therefore, your herring is still red, despite what colour you are painting it.


You will be hard pushed to find any historical proof for your claims, other than right wing blogs on the internet. Therefore, your herring is still red, despite what colour you are painting it.
Not so much.


History of Islam and How They Build Victory Mosques….
By William J. Federer
Sept. 6, 2010

The HISTORY OF ISLAM may hold answers to WHY it is so important for Moslems to build that GROUND ZERO MOSQUE…

In 630, Muhammad led 10,000 Muslim soldiers into Mecca and turned the pagans’ most prominent spot, the Ka’aba, into the Masjid al-Haram Mosque.

In 634, Rightly Guided Caliph Umar conquered Syria and turned the Christians’ most prominent spot, the Church of Job, famous for being visited by Saint Silva in the fourth century, into the Mosque of Job.

In 637, Caliph Umar conquered Hebron and turned the second-most prominent spot in Judaism, the Cave of the Patriarchs, into the Ibrahim Mosque. (This was repeated by Saladin in 1188.)

In 638, Muslim generals Amr ibn al-As and Khalid ibn al-Walid conquered Gaza and turned the prominent fifth-century Byzantine church into the Great Mosque of Gaza.

In 638, Caliph Umar conquered Jerusalem.

In 691, Caliph Al-Malik ordered the _Dome of the Rock_ built on the most prominent spot in Judaism, the Temple Mount, followed by Caliph Al-Walid building the Al-Aqsa Mosque there in 705.

In 651, Muslims conquered Persia and turned Zoroastrian temples in Bukhara and Istakhr into mosques.

In 706, after Muslims took Damascus from the Byzantine Empire, Caliph Al-Walid turned the prominent Orthodox Church of St. John the Baptist into the Umayyad Mosque.

In 710, Gen. Muhammad bin Qasim conquered Pakistan, defiled the prominent Sun Temple in Multan, which house the great idol “sanam,” and erected a mosque.

In 784, after the conquest of Spain, Emir Abd ar-Rahman turned the prominent Visigothic Christian Church of Saint Vincent into the Great Aljama Mosque of Cordoba.

After the conquest of Egypt, Caliphs al-Mamun (813-833) and al-Hakim (996-1021) turned prominent Coptic Christian churches and Jewish synagogues in Cairo into mosques.

In 831, Muslims conquered Palermo, Sicily, and Asad ibn al-Furat turned the prominent Church of Saint Mary of the Assumption into the Great Mosque of Bal ‘harm.

In 1193, Muslims conquered Delhi, India, and Qutbuddin Aibak turned the Red Citadel in Dhillika, the most prominent spot of the last Hindu rulers, into the Qutb Minar Mosque.

From 1250-1517, Mamluk Muslims controlled the Golan Heights and used the ancient Synagogue of Katzrin as a mosque.

In 1387, Turkish Muslims conquered Thessaloniki and turned the Katholikon Monastery and the Church of Aghia Sophia, which housed the relics of Saint Gregorios Palamas, into mosques, as Symeon of Thessaloniki recorded:

“The greatest number of the buildings of the churches fell to them, of which _the first_ was the Holy Church of the Savior. … These were trampled underfoot and the infidels rejoiced in them. … Most of the religious buildings in the city were despoiled, while altars were demolished and sacred things profaned.”

On May 29, 1453, Sultan Mehmet II conquered Constantinople and turned the great Byzantine church, Hagia Sophia, into the Ayasofya Mosque.

The _largest_ church in Christendom for a thousand years, the church’s four acres of gold mosaics was covered with whitewash and Quran verses.

In 1458, Sultan Mehmet II conquered Athens and turned the Greeks’ most prominent spot, the Parthenon on Acropolis hill, into a mosque. When Venetian Gen.

Francesco Morosini drove the Muslims out in 1687, a cannonball hit the gunpowder stored in the mosque, blowing it up. In the 15th century, Ottoman invaders turned Saint Clement’s Macedonian Orthodox Monastery in Plaosnik, Balkans, into the Imater Mosque.

From 1519-1858, Muslim Mughal rulers gained control of India and turned over 2,000 Hindu temples into mosques, including demolishing the Temple of Ram Janmabhoomi in Ajodhya, the birthplace of Rama, and replacing it with the Babri Mosque.

India’s Mughal Muslim ruler, Jahangir (1605-1627), wrote in Tujuk-i-Jahangiri: “At the city of Banaras [was] a temple. … I made it my plea for throwing down thee temple … and on the spot, with the very same materials, I erected the great mosque.”

In 1543, Hayreddin Barbarossa’s 30,000 Muslim troops wintered in Toulon, France, and turned the prominent Toulon Cathedral into a mosque.

In 1570, under Sultan Selim II Khan, Muslims conquered Paphos, Cyprus, and Gov. Mehmet Bey Ebubkir turned the prominent Christian church into the Great Mosque of Paphos.

In 1571, Muslims invaded Famagusta, Cyprus, and turned Saint Nicolas Cathedral, a rare Gothic church, into the Lala Mustafa Pasha Mosque, and Saint Sophia Cathedral in Nicosia, constructed in 1228, into the Selimiye Mosque.

In 1588, Sultan Murat III turned the Eastern Orthodox Church of Saint John the Forerunner in Constantinople into the Hirami Ahmet Pasha Mosque.

In 1781, after having conquered the Old City of Acre, Ottoman Muslims turned the Roman Catholic Church built by Crusaders into the Jezzar Ahmet Pasha Mosque, where a hair from Muhammad’s beard is preserved.

In 1923, Muslims expelled Greeks from Turkey and turned Orthodox churches into mosques. In World War II, Nazis allied with Bosnians and turned the prominent Artists’ Gallery Museum in Zagreb, Croatia, into a mosque.

In the 1950s, Muslims expelled Jews from Arab lands and turned synagogues into mosques. Algerian Muslims warred against French colonial rule till France pulled out in 1962, after which the Cathedral of St. Philippe was turned into the Ketchaoua Mosque.

Violence against Jews caused 30,000 to flee and the Great Synagogue of Oran was turned into the Mosque Abdullah Ben Salem.

In 1974, Turkish Muslims invaded northern Cyprus, and prominent Greek Orthodox churches were turned into mosques.

In 1981, Muslim immigrants to the Netherlands converted Amsterdam’s historic Catholic Sint-Ignatiuskerk into the Fatih Mosque, and a synagogue in The Hague into the Aksa Mosque.

Editor’s Note: William J. Federer is the author of: “What Every American Needs to Know about the Quran: A History of Islam and the United States.
William Federer is a historian.

But he is also a conservative, so I guess his history is "bad" and "untrustworthy"?

Oh, yeah, and he didn't even mention the conversion of all 78 of Libya's synagogues into mosque after Qaddafi kicked all of the Jews out ...

I'm sure there are plenty more examples.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/13/2010 4:21:08 PM >


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 120
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