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RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:14:45 AM

johnxinxscruz

Posts: 53
Joined: 3/25/2006
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I see some comments here about "Master and slave are not equal", but their means of explaining it are focused more upon power (Master's word is law), which is not at all what I think the OP was talking about. Obviously a Master and slave, in their roles within their relationship, can't be equal in authority ... that would be silly. What I think the OP was talking about is equality in terms of human value. The Master is not a better person, and is not a superior _person_, merely because they are a Master. The Master holds a position, within the relationship, of superior _authority_. They occupy that position not because the slave is an inferior _person_, but because the slave has, in a manner of speaking, loaned* or delegated their personal authority to their Master. They haven't become an inferior person, they have taken on a position of inferior authority. (* I believe loaned is the right term here, because it can be taken back)

What Zensee says really focuses it: "Equal doesn't mean 'the same'". It's similar to the legal notion of 'separate but equal'. It also plays into the notion of Yin and Yang (btw: Yin and Yang do not complete each other, they complement each other; important distinction ... and the former is incredibly codependent language to use in a relationship). Yin and Yang are equal, but not the same. It would be entirely reasonable to think of one being "in charge" while the other is "subservient", but they are still equal in quality, quantity, scope, and value. Yin and Yang are equal in value, not necessarily equal in authority or stature.

MasterRobsalayna said: "It takes a strong person to be able to give their all to another".

I agree. If we think of submission as a gift, then the value of that gift would almost be measured in how much strength the sub/slave is handing over in that gift. If you are weak, then what gift of submission are you giving? It's almost more like hiding behind your Dom instead kneeling in front of them, don't you think? IMO, submission should be given from a strong foundation, not a weak one.

Which then plays in to the whole "complete me" vs. "complement me" language. If you're not a complete person on your own, then you're not really a very strong person ... and if you're not a strong person, then what are you putting into that submission? Even in vanilla relationships, I find the whole language of "they complete me" to be such a danger signal ... and even more so when I think about BDSM relationships.

(in reply to MasterRobsalayna)

Post #: 21

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:22:48 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

I agree with you John

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to johnxinxscruz)

Post #: 22

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:23:29 AM

Sadista

Posts: 16
Joined: 6/9/2005
Status: offline

Darling a slave is not trash. A slave or a sub is a valuable tool which a Dom/me uses at their leisure and cares for in the way the slave(s) needs.
I say tool, some may say assistant, others say pet... Its what ever the Dom/me needs and the submissive or slave wants to be.
Its up to you to know what type of tool you are and to find a Dom/me who will make sure you are safely locked in your tool box at the end of the day, all parts well lubed and cared for.
"...be beneath me", said that way and taken at face value sounds to me like someone was attempting to stroke your submissive side. What he actually said was "He is the leader and you will follow or get out of the way, but since you aren't My slave then then what do I care how you talk or act... as long as you are respectful", sorta like when you start to date a friend all that stuff was cool before but now things have changed. What changed- priorities. He/She is now your focus..... Having said that that does not mean your opions, fears and intelligence are nolonger necessary, it simply means you have to follow the protocol ( what ever it may be to YOUR Dom/me) that the Leader has etched in stone to voice those opinions, fears, ideas etc.

Lets face it dear if you have a job you are beneath someone, it doesn't make you any less intelligent or important ... unless being audited.

(in reply to MasterRobsalayna)

Post #: 23

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:27:20 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

quote:

I have read many posts that talk of M/s relationships instead of D/s relationships. These are not the same in the whole equality thing. I am anyone's equal in the fact I am a human being. I am also profoundly superior in some ways to others and profoundly inferior to others in some ways. I can't sing a note for example. No one is completely equal or unequal... We are all just different.

I do not know how I could submit to someone who felt I was inferior...I just couldnt do it

I for one was speaking about the nature of d/s (in a m/s or d/s relationship ...they are BOTH built on d/s dynamics)... he is not a lessor human being that I am... his place in the relationship is equal ...but within that relationship his needs and wants are inferior to the dominant's wants and needs ... inferior: located under or below; low or lower in order, rank or quality ...

Is it such rocket science for people to actually fathom d/s is dominance & submission...power exchange, authority transfer, slavery ..however people want to define theirs .. all require d & s ...if this sits uncomfortably with the submissively inclined, tough.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 24

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:31:08 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

I am supposed to be in bed...LOLOLOL.. but I will bite...

You said yourself that it is "different", therefore how can you compare the two in that way?

I think you're confusing me with another poster. I never said that so I'm a bit lost here.

quote:

It is like asking which is greater, hot or cold, soft or gentle? I mean if someone told you they needed a hammer for a nail and a cloth to clean something which would be better for each job? I would not use a hammer to clean with or a cloth to hammer with... they do different things.

Now I'm really lost. Truly, I have no idea what this analogy is supposed to mean.

quote:

You choose to be a slave, no one is forcing this condition on you, you are equal under the law to leave your condition as is anyone else.

Where did you get the idea that what I am is a choice I have made rather than simply embraced the orientation which is true to my natural self? I no more chose to be a slave than I chose to be a woman. I just am. What the law grants me is less powerful than Himself and holds no validity to the station of my life.

quote:

You choose to live the way you live, it is a choice that you have the right to make... if you were not an equal you could not be in a TPE because you would have no power to exchange. I hope what I am saying makes sense...lol....

You are assuming that I have choices I do not have and you assume a TPE relationship between Himself and me.

I think I can explain as much as I am able with an excerpt from my journal.

"I've been having some issues with the term TPE to describe the relationship which I share with Himself. The power flows from it's source, through me to him, so exchange probably isn't entirely accurate. Also, it's not 'just' power, but it's both power and energy and my power/energy is constantly renewed. I've called myself the conduit through which energy flows, but I'm never drained of that energy because the very source of it is continuous, so it's not really 'total' either. It is ongoing. It's more like a constant power flow. I'm looking for that 'something' which embraces the 'we' in our dynamic and speaks to what's actually going on. Every idiom I've ever heard always points in one direction.. from slave to Master except for TPE which is omnidirectional, but, I think, inaccurate and it bothers me that such things are viewed from slave to Master rather than as Master taking from slave. I think for those slaves who 'gift' their submission, it's a wonderful nomenclature, but it doesn't work for me or those like me who have their power and energy taken from them forcefully by the Master with the ability to do so."

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 25

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:32:24 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

I have read many posts that talk of M/s relationships instead of D/s relationships. These are not the same in the whole equality thing. I am anyone's equal in the fact I am a human being. I am also profoundly superior in some ways to others and profoundly inferior to others in some ways. I can't sing a note for example. No one is completely equal or unequal... We are all just different.

I do not know how I could submit to someone who felt I was inferior...I just couldnt do it

I for one was speaking about the nature of d/s (in a m/s or d/s relationship ...they are BOTH built on d/s dynamics)... he is not a lessor human being that I am... his place in the relationship is equal ...but within that relationship his needs and wants are inferior to the dominant's wants and needs ... inferior: located under or below; low or lower in order, rank or quality ...

Is it such rocket science for people to actually fathom d/s is dominance & submission...power exchange, authority transfer, slavery ..however people want to define theirs .. all require d & s ...if this sits uncomfortably with the submissively inclined, tough.

Well that is your opinion now isn't it, and we all know what those are like

. I think to each their own, and I still stand behind it, if someone thinks I am inferior to them, they can basically walk on by this sub, life is hard enough without following someone around that has a superiority complex

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 26

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:37:22 AM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

quote:

Well that is your opinion now isn't it, and we all know what those are like. I think to each their own, and I still stand behind it, if someone thinks I am inferior to them, they can basically walk on by this sub, life is hard enough without following someone around that has a superiority complex

Oh well, enjoy that vanilla with ya kink

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 27

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 12:41:04 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

I have read many posts that talk of M/s relationships instead of D/s relationships. These are not the same in the whole equality thing. I am anyone's equal in the fact I am a human being. I am also profoundly superior in some ways to others and profoundly inferior to others in some ways. I can't sing a note for example. No one is completely equal or unequal... We are all just different.

I do not know how I could submit to someone who felt I was inferior...I just couldnt do it

I for one was speaking about the nature of d/s (in a m/s or d/s relationship ...they are BOTH built on d/s dynamics)... he is not a lessor human being that I am... his place in the relationship is equal ...but within that relationship his needs and wants are inferior to the dominant's wants and needs ... inferior: located under or below; low or lower in order, rank or quality ...

Is it such rocket science for people to actually fathom d/s is dominance & submission...power exchange, authority transfer, slavery ..however people want to define theirs .. all require d & s ...if this sits uncomfortably with the submissively inclined, tough.

Well that is your opinion now isn't it, and we all know what those are like. I think to each their own, and I still stand behind it, if someone thinks I am inferior to them, they can basically walk on by this sub, life is hard enough without following someone around that has a superiority complex

I actually fully agree with Jasmyn. That is obviously different than your opinion ("and we all know what those are like"...?). You did not clarify which definition of inferior you are speaking of - that which states one is in a lower position, or that which states one has less value. The two are different. You also assume a superiority complex, but I would say that's not necessarily the case.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 28

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 5:13:48 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

".....I'm looking for a partner-- if you aren't my equal, it's because you don't allow yourself to be-- being a submissive doesn't make you less, nor remove your mind (to think for yourself with) or your mouth (to speak your opinions and ask questions with). ....."

~from my former and future profile

It is the rarity that I disagree with ownedgirlie or Celeste. The definition of equal I go by is: "Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another". I don't look at measure of power in determining equality in a D/s or M/s relationship. The arguments have been made as to whether one can pick up and go out the door, thus re-balancing power. I look at value. As human beings. And if that isn't there, something is terribly wrong.

Level

(in reply to MasterRobsalayna)

Post #: 29

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 5:40:00 AM

Proprietrix

Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline

I just posted this the other day in another forum:

"I was simply stating that power exchange relationships aren't equally balanced.
When I hear words like "equal" I think 50/50, i.e. vanilla.
My relationships are not 50/50. I think we'd be mistaken to think any D/s-M/s relationship is 50/50.
If one partner holds more power, it is not an equal relationship. It is not 50/50.
That ratio may be different for different people in the lifestyle. Some may be happy with 80/20. Some may want 60/40. ........................
Just by default, if one is engaged in a D/s, there can't be equality. If there is equality, it's not D/s. "

Of course, that addresses positions of power, not one's worth as a human being.
But I'm one of those people who doesn't believe that all humans have the same worth anyway. I think our actions speak a lot about our worth. (And I know there are differing views on this.)
But then... I wouldn't want a submissive or slave whom I felt was worthless.

(in reply to murmur)

Post #: 30

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 5:53:35 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Everyone in any sort of intimate long term relationship needs to "equally" agree to the relationship, and work to maintain the relationship and the ideals on which it was formed. Meaning- if one doesn't, the entire thing falls apart.

That's about it. Equality after that pretty much falls apart. This is true in vanilla relationships as well- rarely are two people completely equally suited or desiring to do all the same things at all the same time.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to murmur)

Post #: 31

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 5:56:42 AM

unquenchable

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/17/2006
Status: offline

Hello murmur,

I agree with you.

If I felt I was 'beneath' someone, I would not be with him.

submitting to his will does not make me 'less'. In fact I believe it makes me 'more'..but always equal and never beneath.

un--------------

(in reply to murmur)

Post #: 32

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:05:03 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

Here is one way to look at it. As a submissive, kneeling at the feet of a dominant, I feel at home; it is where I belong. I would be nonplussed if the dominant knelt at my feet. His 'position' is to look down to me; mine is to look up to him. We are not equals, but without someone to submit to him, he's just a guy sitting in a chair. Without someone to dominate me, I'm just a silly looking person on the floor.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to murmur)

Post #: 33

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:10:45 AM

aurora31

Posts: 266
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline

My thoughts exactly johnxinxscurz...you said it so much better then I ever could.

aurora

(in reply to johnxinxscruz)

Post #: 34

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:12:34 AM

Tikkiee

Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline

Chris and I are not equals. Not during a scene, and not in just everday life. We will never be equals. There are some areas that he is definitly superior to me; just as there are some areas that I am superior to him in.
It is not something that we stress over though. We accept it as fact; use it to complement each other; and go on with life to the best of our abilities. Trying to prove that I am his equal is nothing more than a waste of energy that is better put to use elsewhere. Just my opinion.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to murmur)

Post #: 35

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:15:37 AM

unquenchable

Posts: 155
Joined: 4/17/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

".....I'm looking for a partner-- if you aren't my equal, it's because you don't allow yourself to be-- being a submissive doesn't make you less, nor remove your mind (to think for yourself with) or your mouth (to speak your opinions and ask questions with). ....."

~from my former and future profile

It is the rarity that I disagree with ownedgirlie or Celeste. The definition of equal I go by is: "Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another". I don't look at measure of power in determining equality in a D/s or M/s relationship. The arguments have been made as to whether one can pick up and go out the door, thus re-balancing power. I look at value. As human beings. And if that isn't there, something is terribly wrong.

Level

Says it all!

un---------

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 36

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:16:47 AM

aurora31

Posts: 266
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline

Opps sorry I double poated....lol

aurora

< Message edited by aurora31 -- 4/24/2006 6:18:36 AM >

(in reply to johnxinxscruz)

Post #: 37

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:27:32 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

Here is one way to look at it. As a submissive, kneeling at the feet of a dominant, I feel at home; it is where I belong. I would be nonplussed if the dominant knelt at my feet. His 'position' is to look down to me; mine is to look up to him. We are not equals, but without someone to submit to him, he's just a guy sitting in a chair. Without someone to dominate me, I'm just a silly looking person on the floor.

I love the way you put this :)

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 38

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 6:54:33 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

I live my life the way I want to live it. My partner/sub whatever can come along for the ride or she can leave. I got drawn into the ying yang thing once and it ended up being more yang than ying. I'd rather be single than meet all the demands most women want from a relationship. My current partner knows where the door is and it is never locked.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 39

RE: equals? - 4/24/2006 7:34:07 AM

MstrFury

Posts: 77
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline

all this banter back and forth is giving me brain freeze....as usual we seem to get hung up on a word misplacement or discription and off we go to the races....I will only state my opinion on this and then slink back into the shadows and lurk some more......every dynamic within every relationship is different.... some want equal..some don't....if it works for you...good ...if it doesn't...you own that too...

so I now pull my cape around me and.........poof

_____________________________

Fury

(in reply to murmur)

Post #: 40

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