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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/3/2010 3:29:57 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

I've finished eating my popcorn, so I'll add a thought or two. Firstly, I must say that I'm disappointed by the content of this thread. I saw that it had 9 pages, so I was sure that it would be worth reading. What I found instead was a rehashing of a topic that's been discussed more times than I care to count. My basic takeaways from the 9 pages (and counting) are as follows:

- (Non-BDSM) Slavery still exists in the world, though it is illegal in most countries of the world. Moreover, most people look upon the practice negatively.

-There is a concept in the BDSM community called "slavery" which is different from the above mentioned illegal (and despicable) practice, but which goes by the same name.

-Homonyms have the potential to cause confusion.

-Telepathic communication is more efficient than spoken language because it eliminates the shortcomings of verbal and written communication (like those pesky homonyms). So in 50,000 years, when mankind has evolved to the point where telepathy is the predominant form of communication, we'll all be better off.

-Some within the BDSM community who practice BDSM "slavery" (which is not to be confused with the aforementioned illegal activity) believe that there are differing levels of servitude, and that their level of submission/servitude is higher than that of others within the BDSM community. The term that they sometimes use to communicate their advanced status in the servitude hierarchy (since telepathy is not yet possible) is "true" or "real" slavery.

-Once again, this "true" or "real" slavery is in no way related to the illegal activity previously mentioned.

-Mistoferin likes popcorn.

-Mnottertail likes blowjobs.

-Bravado sounds strangely like a certain 25 year old grad student who was often labeled a "troll", but who mysteriously "disappeared" (which is a synonym for "was banned") right around June of 2010.

Does that pretty much sum up all 9 pages?

Edit: Darn!!! I just noticed that my comments took this thread to a 10th page.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 10/3/2010 3:47:42 PM >

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 181

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/3/2010 3:35:20 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

*nods* That captured the salient points in my mind Roch :)

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 182

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/3/2010 6:48:25 PM

Whiplashsmile4

Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado
I'm not so stupid as to believe that there are any "true slaves" among the privileged people in the world, so I expect that any sub will have some tangible needs and expectations. When they argue that they have no such needs and are ready to commit themselves to be permanent property, I wonder if they even realize that it is a lie.

If they knew what true slavery was, then they wouldn't be asking for it. If you have the audacity to claim it's something you enjoy and want me to show you what true slavery is, come along, I have plenty of stones to haul and a place to dump your body when you've died of exhaustion.

Bravado, it's been awhile since I posted much on the message boards. Seriously, would you push your car or other things this hard? A sane Master/Owner would not expect to push a slave this hard with plenty of stones to haul and frankly not be wanting to dump the body of a perfectly good or great slave off either. Most D types, Masters aka Owners would be tuned in with knowing when their sub/slave/property/other is ready to die of exhaustion. Seriously....

quote:

While I respect that a person may have fantasies, and would like to roleplay the kink of being a real slave, I'm sure I can't be the only one that is annoyed when he is approached by a girl who attempts to convince you that she's the traditional definition of a slave and ready to serve as though all other BDSM slaves are posers. I'm willing to believe that someone out there masturbates to the idea of building a pyramid in the desert for a decade of unrewarded effort until their demise, but I don't think that person is a young white girl who hasn't worked for a decade in any job, let alone something brutal and unforgiving.

I don't know about other D-types, but seriously I and many others are not trying to build pyramids in the desert. You also seem to have this notion that M/s relationship are without regard.. (mind you, it could be for some but not all people). Your words come off was more brutal and unforgiving compared to many D's. Yeah, so what most people masterbate too.. has nothing to do with ones ability to sperate fact from reality (or not).

quote:

Do you suppose these people know that they are lying, or have lost themselves in a delusional fantasy? Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

I've not read through the replies on this thread yet, I perhaps hope you've come to another understanding of things.

quote:

This topic was inspired by the recent news, in which many Nigerian slaves were discovered being trafficked, which is unfortunately fairly common. I have great pity for those people, and their plight makes me wonder how any could convince themselves that it's what they want.

This is a whole different ball game...

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 183

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/4/2010 4:55:54 PM

Bravado

Posts: 87
Joined: 6/15/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

-Some within the BDSM community who practice BDSM "slavery" (which is not to be confused with the aforementioned illegal activity) believe that there are differing levels of servitude, and that their level of submission/servitude is higher than that of others within the BDSM community. The term that they sometimes use to communicate their advanced status in the servitude hierarchy (since telepathy is not yet possible) is "true" or "real" slavery.

Thank you for stating your opinions and overall interpretation. I quoted the only point that was interesting, which addresses the specific concerns for which I created this thread.

"Advanced status in the servitude hierarchy" is a phrase that is at best amusing or at worst downright ridiculous. The fact that they use the words "true" or "real" make it all the more outrageous, but you know my opinion already. Some may think "to each their own," but in my opinion it is a matter of ignorance. Just as people who are uneducated incorrectly use words in everyday conversation because it "sounds right," it is incorrect to identify oneself as a "true slave" merely because it seems cool.

"What does it matter that it may be incorrect?" That's a question I'm sure most people would ask. Some might even say, "who are you to decide what is correct?" Even fewer might suggest that "no one has the right to say that an opinion is incorrect." To all of those people, I expect them to observe that such a mentality should have advised them not to argue against my opinion, which nearly all of you have done.

Unless you want to make this thread the BEST THREAD OF 2010! In which case I need as many helplessly frustrated people as I can get to tell me how I'm wrong a dozen times each and reach page 100! If only I could charge for page views...

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 184

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/4/2010 11:30:03 PM

Owlet

Posts: 35
Joined: 12/2/2009
Status: offline

My Master is making me build a pyramid, so I'm a REAL slave...

It still counts if it's a Lego pyramid, right?

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 185

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 2:25:14 AM

ranja

Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

Do you suppose these people know that they are lying, or have lost themselves in a delusional fantasy? Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

in answer to your questions
some people know they are lying...
just like some very religious leaders know that God does not really exist
some people have lost themselves in a delusional fantasy
just like most of their sheep

Yes, i have experience relevant to the idea, namely that i fantasise about being a real slave on occasion.

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 186

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 3:44:46 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

allthatjaz, I would dare to say that it is in the nature of human beings to conform to social norms given no outstanding reason to stay loyal to obscurity. It could be that the novelty is wearing off, you that you get all that you want without need of BDSM, or both. Or it could be that there's a lot you both want to do together in life that just wouldn't make sense between a master and a slave. Who knows? Not me! Best of luck to you anyhow!

I think its all to do with wearing off but its the scene thats wearing off and not the lifestyle. I am in a relationship that is 24/7 D/s. That is such an impossible thing to explain and not one that I am going to try and do here, except to say, its two deep minds coming together and enjoying life. The more the scene wears off, the deeper that D/s becomes because to us, it feels more natural.

I have personal feelings about slavery and Mastery but they are only my feelings and so should matter little to those that are in slave/Master type relationships.
I, for example, don't understand how a slave can marry her Master and still remain a slave. Surely a slave is owned property? perhaps I am old fashioned but I consider a wife and husband to be anything other than slave and master.
For couples who are lovers or married and who still describe themselves as slave and master, what is it that makes her a slave and not a sub and the master not just a husband with a dominant personality? I don't believe for a second that its because the level of dominance and submission go far deeper.
I personally don't find any point in titles such as 'Master' when its used within a loving or married relationship. I appreciate that people like them and often need them but they are titles that are often guarded from the public ear. Are they terms of endearment? are they things that people need to remind them of their position? I'm baffled as to why a committed and loving relationship would need such titles. But thats just me. I don't understand it and I have never desired it.
I can though, understand its use in a none loving relationship.
When I look at most submissive/dominant relationship, I see much more clarity. Those kind of relationships remind me of how my grandparents were. Femininity and masculinity seems to of reverted back to not too long ago in history, where the female supported her partner by ensuring everything was in place and in return the male supported his partner with firm but kind love. It doesn't feel too distant. People of my age have likely witnessed this sort of dynamic in older relatives. (Please don't come back at me with 'my relatives were like that and it was full of unhappiness' because that is not what I am talking about) Some of today's couples are doing just that but under the heading 'Master and slave' and I would be interested to know the differences.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 10/5/2010 3:47:47 AM >

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 187

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 6:50:59 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

Well, since I qualify, I'll have a go at some answers at least for Carol & I... not that this is a debate as you noted yourself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjazI, for example, don't understand how a slave can marry her Master and still remain a slave. Surely a slave is owned property? perhaps I am old fashioned but I consider a wife and husband to be anything other than slave and master.

*chuckles* Up until fairly recently in US history, the difference between wife and "owned property" was paper thin. In the end though, the reason I don't see a conflict here is that I feel no need to describe my relationship all in one word. Carol is my "slave" to BDSM people who are interested in our authority dynamic. She's my "wife" to vanilla people who are more interested in our love affair. To me, "wife" does not really specify the type of relationship other than "legally blessed" and "hopefully committed". It leaves a LOT of room for further refinement *laughs*.

quote:

For couples who are lovers or married and who still describe themselves as slave and master, what is it that makes her a slave and not a sub and the master not just a husband with a dominant personality? I don't believe for a second that its because the level of dominance and submission go far deeper.

You should... at least for us. Carol has always been Carol -- a fairly submissive personality in the general social sense. I've alwasy been me. Left to our own devices (say, before we even ran into this BDSM thing), I'd say we are dom and sub. With very little effort, we could pull off a D/s marriage. But my own pesonal definition of what it means to be a "slave" goes pretty far -- WAY farther than simply an obedient personality would call for. So M/s, for us, has taken the basic D/s components and refined & rarified them. Put simply, I would not have asked my submissive wife whether she would, in fact, sign herself over to me were it legally possible to do so. I did ask my slave wife that because I see her as property and I wanted to know if she saw herself the same way. Fundamentally, it's a "slave" question.

quote:

I personally don't find any point in titles such as 'Master' when its used within a loving or married relationship. I appreciate that people like them and often need them but they are titles that are often guarded from the public ear. Are they terms of endearment? are they things that people need to remind them of their position? I'm baffled as to why a committed and loving relationship would need such titles. But thats just me. I don't understand it and I have never desired it.

We don't "need" it. That's why I've never commanded it. BUT, I derive a great deal of satisfaction from owning Carol.... NOT in the bdsm-sense but rather in the delusional sense this thread is all about. So here I sit, happy in my delusions that Carol is my property and Carol reinforces my delusions by selecting the standard english word for an owned human referring to their owner.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 188

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 9:01:37 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline

Thanks for answering my questions Leadership.

One part I need to pull out because I found your words interesting and funnily enough I could relate to them.
You said 'With very little effort, we could pull off a D/s marriage. But my own pesonal definition of what it means to be a "slave" goes pretty far -- WAY farther than simply an obedient personality would call for. So M/s, for us, has taken the basic D/s components and refined & rarified them.'
Now the reason I can relate to those words is because anyone scene wise could point a finger Steve's and my way and say 'THIS' is what you are and yet they would almost certainly be way off course. Our relationship goes to such depths of the mind that we could only vaguely explain the outer fringe parts of it. The rest is incredibly complex and yet amazingly simple. I have never read about a relationship like ours and I have never witnessed a relationship like ours. Our relationship is possibly so unusual that there is no real name for it but perhaps if I could liken it to something, then I would happily take on the title of whatever that thing is.

Anyway, enough rambling from me!

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 189

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 9:56:51 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

Heh... you and Steve are unique snowflakes... just like all of us
(sorry, i couldn't resist)

But honestly, I've come to the conclusion that between any two relationships, there are vastly more differences than similarities. I don't think ANYONE can understand anyone else's long-term intimate relationship... there's just too much history that's obscured from the rest of the world. I don't think there's a name for my relationship either. I think labels like "M/s" capture a fragment of it and even then only poorly.

Honestly, I think my marriage can be described pretty simply to anyone who isn't into BDSM. Here in bdsm-land so many words have been mangled and redefined that word selection becomes hard. The simple description is that I own human property which I happen to be head over heels in love with. Anyone who hadn't redefined most of those words would get it instantly. Others, per this thread, would see it as delusional.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 190

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 10:35:11 AM

masterdstar

Posts: 160
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

LMAO

Enjoy your wonder-filled day

(in reply to poise)

Post #: 191

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/5/2010 12:34:49 PM

SaharahEve

Posts: 231
Joined: 6/25/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado
Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

Of course. There are consensual slaves who serve wholly and completely, and I have had a handful of them throughout my life. Then there are the more conditional admirers; I wouldn't call them slaves at all. Fawning admirers? Yes. Servile? To a degree. Slaves? Perhaps on the surface, but in the end, no. They are far different from the males I've kept as slaves. In making that distinction I'm assigning "truth" to one select strain and non-truth to another...there's no rational way of getting around that.

Consensual slavery isn't delusional role play, but I accept that there is a lot of confusion about the reality of it all which doesn't always live up to the fantasies in someone's head. That is the biggest source of delusion, but it does not apply to all. Once in a while you find someone who knows exactly what they are getting into, someone who embraces it zealously.

_____________________________

Saharah

S a h a r a h E v e . c o m

nanshakh.com

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 192

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/8/2010 5:45:53 AM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

One key difference between woman approaching you and the Nigerians is that here on CM they are choosing their Masters and the terms of slavery they will accept. The question then becomes, can you make a go of consensual slavery.

It is not a prerequisite of slavery that it be "total."

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 10/8/2010 5:59:29 AM >

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 193

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/8/2010 12:20:35 PM

Bravado

Posts: 87
Joined: 6/15/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SaharahEve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado
Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

Slaves? Perhaps on the surface, but in the end, no. They are far different from the males I've kept as slaves.

You should explain that, otherwise it's a pointless assertion.

(in reply to SaharahEve)

Post #: 194

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/8/2010 1:23:55 PM

LadyRian

Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline

Why is the popcorn always gone?

_____________________________

"Dodging bullets since 2010"

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 195

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/8/2010 4:01:13 PM

SaharahEve

Posts: 231
Joined: 6/25/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

quote:

ORIGINAL: SaharahEve

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado
Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

Slaves? Perhaps on the surface, but in the end, no. They are far different from the males I've kept as slaves.

You should explain that, otherwise it's a pointless assertion.

Your claim that what I say is a pointless assertion is in fact what is pointless. Unlike you, I'm not asserting anything; I'm telling you what is going on in my reality. Of course if you want to know details, there are more polite ways of requesting them.

_____________________________

Saharah

S a h a r a h E v e . c o m

nanshakh.com

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 196

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/8/2010 5:05:18 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SaharahEve

Your claim that what I say is a pointless assertion is in fact what is pointless. Unlike you, I'm not asserting anything; I'm telling you what is going on in my reality. Of course if you want to know details, there are more polite ways of requesting them.

I thought the same thing when I read his response to your posting. Clearly, he is not familiar with the life that you lead. If he were, he would have responded differently.

However, his response was typical for that particular poster.

(in reply to SaharahEve)

Post #: 197

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/8/2010 6:00:18 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

I'm not so stupid as to believe that there are any "true slaves" among the privileged people in the world, so I expect that any sub will have some tangible needs and expectations. When they argue that they have no such needs and are ready to commit themselves to be permanent property, I wonder if they even realize that it is a lie.

That would depend upon what you are defining as a "true slave". If you delve into the many definitions, connotations and applications of the word, you may find there is no "true slave" in various applications. In an IT application, slave would not be applicable to just about any conversation on this forum, so I could easily say there has never and will never be a living slave.

quote:

If they knew what true slavery was, then they wouldn't be asking for it. If you have the audacity to claim it's something you enjoy and want me to show you what true slavery is, come along, I have plenty of stones to haul and a place to dump your body when you've died of exhaustion.

Now here you are alluding to a type of slavery at least. You should define this in the beginning of your post though, as this will prevent miscommunication. From what I gather is you believe that forced and unconsentual slavery is the only true slavery there is?

quote:

While I respect that a person may have fantasies, and would like to roleplay the kink of being a real slave, I'm sure I can't be the only one that is annoyed when he is approached by a girl who attempts to convince you that she's the traditional definition of a slave and ready to serve as though all other BDSM slaves are posers.

Is there a possibility that what they mean as a slave, and what you believe a slave is, could be two different things? From just the beginning of this post you show that you are not the best at setting things up for good communication.

quote:

I'm willing to believe that someone out there masturbates to the idea of building a pyramid in the desert for a decade of unrewarded effort until their demise, but I don't think that person is a young white girl who hasn't worked for a decade in any job, let alone something brutal and unforgiving.

Again you allude to the type of slave you are speaking of, but this comment suggest that only the historical manual labor slaves are true slaves. What of the slaves that did various other jobs, some of which were even being teachers, accountants, researchers, scribes, etc? Based upon your two areas where you have alluded to what you define a slave is, then only manual labor slaves are "true slaves".

quote:

Do you suppose these people know that they are lying, or have lost themselves in a delusional fantasy? Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

Some are just role playing things, some though actually have the psyche that can be molded so that they are internally enslaved. Many have a desire to be used and possibly abused in many ways, and their drives to compel them to act and react in certain ways. There is a site on internal enslavement, and many sites on power exchange relationships that maybe you should read. That is if you really want to educate yourself.

quote:

This topic was inspired by the recent news, in which many Nigerian slaves were discovered being trafficked, which is unfortunately fairly common. I have great pity for those people, and their plight makes me wonder how any could convince themselves that it's what they want.

Actually this topic is just troll bait, as you do not seem stupid enough to not know what the people on a BDSM site mean when they say the word "slave". Then again, you might be since I see pages of responses I have yet to read.

Subjecting someone else to your will, exerting control through any means, having actions done remotely, is done to a slave. There are many forms of slavery, as most slavery is internal and only the most noticable is the forced and external kind.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 198

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 11:40:04 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

I am answering this from the perspective of having NOT read past the first page, so I am sure that some of what I say will most likely have already been said.

You want to know what 'true slavery is'? Sorry, but I can not help you there. The definition for the words 'true' and 'slavery' are so subjective, that no two people could give the same one. The problem is that when the word 'slavery' is mentioned, no matter who is on the receiving end, the first impression that flashes through the mind is that of 'indentured servants' and 'african americans' and how they were treated. What many fail to comprehend is the unspoken areas that surround the term of slavery.

A good example is that when I think of slavery, I do not picture in my mind the atrocities that occured. Instead, I see the single one difference between them and myself. That difference being the issue of consent.

I CONSENT to being treated like a slave.
THEY did not consent to being treated in such a way.

So, from my own life, I can say that slavery does exist and that I have lived it. The difference being that I chose this life over being forced into it.

Pretty simple in my eyes.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 199

RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 3:13:27 PM

softslavetoy

Posts: 3
Joined: 9/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

What CaringandReal giveth, CaringandReal taketh away.

Due to the conflicting yet inarguable clarity of your most recent post, I can now no longer feel comfortable using the phrase "legal slave." Instead, I have no choice but to say "illegal slave," but the meaning may have perhaps become so misconstrued that "true slaves," the BDSM term for "I'm extra serious about it," will now seem more legitimate than criminally trafficked slaves! Nothing seems more illegitimate than the prefix "illegal," which makes anything seem faux and foul.

Differentiating between 'legal slaves' and 'illegal slaves' is a very good idea. Even when slavery was legal there were laws binding the owners with regards to what they were permitted to do to their slaves and what they were not permitted - they did not have the right to do anything they pleased. For example, in ancient Israel a slave was automatically freed if the owner permanently damaged parts of their body.

So now that your local government banned forced slavery, the definition of a 'legal slave' is one that may leave whenever she or he wishes, and it's up to both of you to decide what the terms of your relationship will be, and as long as both agree it's a 'legal slavery' and as soon as one wants out, it becomes illegal.

(in reply to Bravado)

Post #: 200

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