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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 4:11:24 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		For me, this is simple... a "true" slave (substitute your fave word of choice... servant [my word of choice], sub, kajira/us, etc.) is one who is true to the agreements xhe has entered into, and true to the responsibilities xhe has undertaken, accepting that, as a function of hir role, xhe has yielded authority to the measure agreed upon to one or more individuals, who keep that authority "in trust" and manage life accordingly.

A "true" Master is one who is true to the responsibilities -xhe- has undertaken, and who manages those who yield authority to hir with awareness and with dedication to hir role and honesty and integrity in the expression of hir authority and in the protection and coordination of hir home.

I tend not to use the terms Master (or Mistress) and slave for the dynamics in which I participate -- but frankly, as long as everyone involved in the dynamic understands the language being used, and the meanings of the words are compatible between them, it seems a horrific waste of time to beat the theory behind the words to a bloody death.

Calla

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 5:20:02 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

For me, this is simple... a "true" slave (substitute your fave word of choice... servant [my word of choice], sub, kajira/us, etc.) is one who is true to the agreements xhe has entered into, and true to the responsibilities xhe has undertaken, accepting that, as a function of hir role, xhe has yielded authority to the measure agreed upon to one or more individuals, who keep that authority "in trust" and manage life accordingly.



This is a great definition of "true." It gets to the heart of the meaning of that word and demonstrates, it's actual practical simple nature, which has nothing of the silly, over-the-top spin some cynics ascribe to it. I also like the way you included master in that definition. Nicely done.

I'm curious about how do you see the time element playing into this, as this is an area of some confusion. I mean, if a person is a true slave or pick-your-word based on the definition above and serves for five years and then has a change of heart and wants to do or be something else, and perhaps it tears you or your household apart that they want this, do you still consider them as having been a true slave? Or does their change of heart, their abandonment of you, especially if they'd made a permanent commitment to always serve you, change everything?

Some people associate trueness with constancy, with always being the way that you are and not deviating from it. While I am a non-deviant in that sense, I'm not so sure that this is a trait that belongs with a definition of trueness. It just means I'm perfectly happy with what I am and see no need to change (or perhaps that I cannot change what I am).

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 6:20:23 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Everyone has changes of heart. It happens in the kink world and in vanilla world.

Just because a wife divorces her husband because she has changed and he didn't change with her, doesn't make her any less true to herself.

I honestly use the term "True" in relation to oneself, rather than to the specific relationship. So long as I remain true to my wants and desires I shall always be true for the fact that I am not making myself a lie. For me to be a "true slave", I must be a slave within that definition that CallaFirestorm gave, but also be true within the definition of MYSELF. Because that is what makes me a true slave to begin with - that I am honest and truthful in my desires and seek to fulfill them - the slave part is merely because I seek to fulfill them by fulfilling the wants and needs and desires of another. That is what gives me my fulfillment. And I honestly don't feel that being "true" is anything beyond that. There is no, "A true slave does such and such" - those that say that are just trying to take advantage of the other or are just trying to make themselves be better than the other. A True Slave is purely one who's desires center around the one that they wish to serve, all the other aspects are up to the two (or more in the case of poly) individuals in that relationship.

Am I a true slave? I believe so, simply because I am true to myself and my desires to serve my Master and fulfill his desires because his desires are my own.

If I started to realize that his desires were NOT my own (I.E. compatibility), then it would be my duty as a true slave to tell him so, and find the right one for me who fits my desires so that they can become my own.

Granted, that is merely my interpretation of "true" slavery, as it is in the real world. The term slave is just something that fits us due to the way we function best in a relationship. In some ways, you could just say that you're just being a "True YOU", because that is all it is to be true - it is what fits you like a glove and what makes you feel most fulfilled in life.


Added note: To clarify, one could say that everyone who says "You're not a true slave" is both right and wrong. You are not the true slave to THEM, because in order for either of you to be compatible one or the other would have to be untrue to yourselves. But they are wrong in the sense that just because you are not true to THEM, you are true to yourself, and to the one who is right for you.
I am a true slave to my Master because our ideals fit, and neither of us have to be something we are not. We can be TRUE to each other. I am a true slave to myself because I am true to my needs and desires.

A slave that is not a true slave is one who is being something they are not, making a lie of themselves, being untrue to themselves and their ideals, their wishes, their needs, their very being.


< Message edited by WolfyMontgomery -- 10/9/2010 6:27:18 PM >

(in reply to CaringandReal)
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 6:52:49 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal


quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

For me, this is simple... a "true" slave (substitute your fave word of choice... servant [my word of choice], sub, kajira/us, etc.) is one who is true to the agreements xhe has entered into, and true to the responsibilities xhe has undertaken, accepting that, as a function of hir role, xhe has yielded authority to the measure agreed upon to one or more individuals, who keep that authority "in trust" and manage life accordingly.



This is a great definition of "true." It gets to the heart of the meaning of that word and demonstrates, it's actual practical simple nature, which has nothing of the silly, over-the-top spin some cynics ascribe to it.


I must agree. I do not like to use the term "True" to preface any lifestyle definition, because it's usually heaped with rather a lot of bullshit. There are just too many definitions of who or what is "True" and who or what isn't, depending on who's in the pulpit doing the preaching.

I don't care whether someone is a "TRUE SLAVE" or "TRUE SUB" or whatnot. That phrase can mean way too many different things to different people. I care that they are telling the truth, and that they have a solid enough grounding in reality and in their own level of self-knowledge that they are able to tell the truth fully and completely. There is no better basis for a long term D/s relationship.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 9:14:26 PM   
truesub4u


Posts: 2949
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Shall I start popping the corn now?


Ok so I'm ALOT late on this one... LOL

I am who I am and what others think about... well... no need to start a bashing scene on here.

Mist.. been awhile.. nice seeing you. I'll be around more now that I am done with chemo and in remission.. should be interesting... LOL

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/9/2010 10:24:35 PM   
JanahX


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Status: offline 		You mean I can stop pickin' cotton in the fields now?  Right the fuck on!!

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/10/2010 5:19:21 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

I'm curious about how do you see the time element playing into this, as this is an area of some confusion. I mean, if a person is a true slave or pick-your-word based on the definition above and serves for five years and then has a change of heart and wants to do or be something else, and perhaps it tears you or your household apart that they want this, do you still consider them as having been a true slave? Or does their change of heart, their abandonment of you, especially if they'd made a permanent commitment to always serve you, change everything?


This is an interesting question, and one that most people don't think to ask when they're entering into an arrangement. For me, as long as the individual in question met the responsibilities of hir choice while xhe was in the relationship, AND was completely forthcoming about the changes xhe was going through when it came time for the relationship to change, I would -still- consider hir a "true" servant by my definition.

People change and grow -- and a healthy relationship encourages that growth in people. Sometimes, what suits a person at one point in hir life will no longer suit hir once xhe has grown and hir outlook has adapted to that shifting internal paradigm. I don't consider our servants who have moved on to have "abandoned" me. The time we spent together was mutually enlightening, growth provoking, and nourished all of the parties involved... and when things changed and people needed new options, it seemed to me (and to the rest of those in our household who participated) that our role never -did- stop being one of encouraging those people whom we'd welcomed into our family to continue to grow.

You know, some of our members have remained Keepers from the point at which they graduated to that rank. A couple of our Keepers found that they needed to step away from that and a couple even decided to yield in service for a while, because, at the time, that was what was nourishing their growth. In the same way, though all of our Keepers start out as servants, not every servant -desires- to move in the direction of becoming a Keeper -- some of our servants are fulfilled and their growth comes from -being- in service... so why would we force them to follow a path that would not fulfill or embrace that individual's whole self? In the same way, for those who -are- inclined to leadership, I can no more fathom a way of life that would hold them to service just because that was where they started out than I can conceive of forcing one of our offspring to stop growing so that xhe could remain forever our child!

"True", for us, revolves around personal integrity for the decisions one makes, and requires living a life that honestly embraces what one IS. The whole act of living is a process of learning who and what we are, and reinforcing our natures through self-exploration -and- relationship. So the ending (or changing) of a relationship, whether an authority-based one, a romantic one, or any other form of inter-relationship is part of that natural process... why would we -ever- feel hurt at watching someone we cherish become and embrace hir genuine self as it exists in that moment?

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 10/10/2010 5:22:13 AM >

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/10/2010 5:31:54 AM   
TotalDiscipline


Posts: 225
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Status: offline 		they should forbid the word "true" and this forum will be a lott smaller

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/11/2010 4:17:23 AM   
Nslavu


Posts: 342
Joined: 2/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Shall I start popping the corn now?


Is it popcorn that wants to be popcorn or is it role playing popcorn? I'm not stupid, I don't believe corn actually wants to be popped.

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/11/2010 9:59:01 AM   
TotalDiscipline


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quote:

I'm not stupid, I don't believe corn actually wants to be popped.


what does it want? Way to easy to say what it doesn't want

(in reply to Nslavu)
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/11/2010 11:33:42 AM   
Nslavu


Posts: 342
Joined: 2/1/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

quote:

I'm not stupid, I don't believe corn actually wants to be popped.


what does it want? Way to easy to say what it doesn't want



It wants to be creamed, which just happens to be right up my alley, even if it thinks it's just role playing the cream wanting thing. I believe this to be true of all organic matter.



PS: That was easy too.

(in reply to TotalDiscipline)
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/11/2010 4:18:32 PM   
Bravado


Posts: 87
Joined: 6/15/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

You mean I can stop pickin' cotton in the fields now?  Right the fuck on!!


Whoa there now, no one said you could stop. Get back on the farm.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/11/2010 4:20:35 PM   
Bravado


Posts: 87
Joined: 6/15/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Everyone has changes of heart. It happens in the kink world and in vanilla world.



"You are now my slave. Unless you change you have a change of heart, then I guess you're not!" - "True" slavery???

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 6:24:01 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Everyone has changes of heart. It happens in the kink world and in vanilla world.



"You are now my slave. Unless you change you have a change of heart, then I guess you're not!" - "True" slavery???



How carefully you pick and choose what you hear -- I addressed this issue in both of my posts.. and YES, you absolutely can have "true" slavery and still have the flexibility to address issues of change in the parties involved.

Really, it sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses to make fun of things that you have absolutely no understanding of.

Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 10:06:03 AM   
TotalDiscipline


Posts: 225
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Status: offline 		it sounds good :P

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 12:01:16 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

they should forbid the word "true" and this forum will be a lott smaller


True.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 1:32:04 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado
"You are now my slave. Unless you change you have a change of heart, then I guess you're not!" - "True" slavery???


Would you want a slave who didn't want you? The idea of being a slave in the REAL world is that it is purely consent based. I think of slavery and Mastery to be much like a marriage, a very close, trusting relationship. Marriages end too. If people start growing apart, changing, views change, why would a Master want to be in a relationship with a slave who does not think in the same terms he does (i.e like the same things, understand where he's coming from, shares the same limits, etc)? Why should a female (or male, I'm merely speaking from my perspective as a female slave to my Master) have to stay with a Master if he changes in a way that is totally against her ideals, just because she identifies as a slave? Why should she, if life started changing her in ways where she began changing in ways totally against the ideals of her Master, have to remain his - for that matter why would he want to keep her?

Slavery in the D/s or M/s sense (not illegal slavery, obviously) it is purely consent based. I gave my consent for a non-consensual relationship - meaning that I now trust him so implicitly that I have given him the right to do ANYTHING to me. The reason why this works so well is because I know that my fears and dislikes are the same as his, and so anything that used to be a hard limit, he has no interest in doing. If he suddenly changed and decided he liked those things, becoming a person different from the one I fell in love with (thus not staying true to his part of the agreement and trust - if you look at CallaFirestormBW's post) then why would I want to stay with the man who is not the one I originally fell in love with if I found I could not grow in the same direction he is going?

Then again, I am the type who, when not in an M/s relationship, to only consider myself as a *potential* slave, because without the level of trust needed for me to commit myself that totally, I could NOT give myself so totally to be a slave. I would still seek to be in a Master/slave relationship, and would explain myself to any, and if someone thought that I was "not a true slave" because I would not be willing to enslave myself to just anyone and never quickly, then I'm obviously not true FOR them. But I am still being true to myself.

No, I would not be a true slave to YOUR ideals, but that just means that I am not the slave for you. But for the right Master, I am a true slave to him, because both our ideals match and we are able to grow together, thus we are able to remain true to ourselves.


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-A Wolf of a Different Color

Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

(in reply to Bravado)
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 2:41:15 PM   
Bravado


Posts: 87
Joined: 6/15/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Would you want a slave who didn't want you?



You have the most romantic image of slavery. No wonder it's so popular with women! It's like having a husband, but even more commitment and responsibility. He has all the same obligations to make his partner want to be with him, provides financial support, and the additional responsibility of authority over her life (but only when she wants it).

Finally, now I know what a true slave is. How could I not have realized before? It was so obvious! A true slave is the male master of a female slave.

(in reply to WolfyMontgomery)
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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 2:52:53 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		I don't think you understand what I was getting at. The Master and slave BOTH have to work and agree on what will make the relationship work for them. The slave serves the Master in the way they BOTH see fit and agree upon, and the Master provides for the slaves needs as they BOTH see fit and agree upon. It's a two way street, Bravado.

And if one of the members find that what they originally agreed to won't work anymore because of life changes, either Master OR slave, then it is their duty to their own well being to make sure that either
A: both parties renegotiate their wants and needs for both people to be happy without not being true to themselves,
or B: that both parties agree that their relationship is no longer compatible and they go their separate ways so that they can find the right relationship for themselves.

A "true" slave is one that is true to her wants and needs and desires and is honest about it. A "true" Master is one who is true to his wants and needs and desires and is honest about it.
Just because one identifies as a slave does not make her compatible with any Master that comes around the block, but at the same time, just because one identifies as a Master does not make him compatible with any slave that they see. You need to find the person that works for you and makes you feel good about what YOU do, as well as what you do for them, whether that be serving and submitting yourself to them in the terms of slaves, or in enforcing and leading them in terms of Masters.

One good idea that I usually do, is remove the "slave" and "Master" terms and put "Human" or "Person" there instead. A true HUMAN is one that is true to their wants and needs and desires and is honest about it. It doesn't matter how they identify, so long as they are honest with the hows and whys and stay true to it and find the one (or several in terms of poly) who fits with what they want and who they fit with in terms of the others' wants. Just because they don't agree with how you view what YOUR proper slave will be, does not mean they are not proper in their own right, just not right for you.


< Message edited by WolfyMontgomery -- 10/12/2010 2:57:53 PM >

_____________________________

~Eleven

-A Wolf of a Different Color

Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

(in reply to Bravado)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 10/12/2010 4:02:12 PM   
Bravado


Posts: 87
Joined: 6/15/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

A "true" slave is one that is true to her wants and needs and desires and is honest about it. A "true" Master is one who is true to his wants and needs and desires and is honest about it.



How interesting! So "true master" and "true slave" are synonymous! Other than gender, of course. I'm learning more every day!

(in reply to WolfyMontgomery)
Profile   Post #: 220
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