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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 7:48:40 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

Well said and excellent observation.


Thanks! It's high praise coming from the coiner of "ass clapping sex kittens from Gor." I had completely forgotten about ass-clapping (once upon a time I was fascinated with it, for all the usual reasons) until I saw that colorful phrase in a recent post of yours. I'm afraid that visual has locked the pasttime into my permanent memory storage--right next to "Leather Goddesses of Phobos."

Not a bad thing, come to think of it.


Ha ha, glad to be the source of your encouragement to that end.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 7:52:07 PM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

Do you suppose these people know that they are lying, or have lost themselves in a delusional fantasy? Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"


Greetings Bravado,

I don't believe the answer is simple largely due to the individual nuances we each possess. Nonetheless, I do believe it's debated far too much and becomes an emotional crutch of sorts for some that have a sincere desire/need to differentiate themselves from others. Many associations have been provided along with historical references that some utilize for inspiration in their personal relationships. However, the lack of continuity and frequent change makes me question if the bond is as deeply entrenched as some present or if we're merely describing relationships with a kinky flavor if you will.

While I'm not disputing the validity of slavery for those that embrace the term and live their lives according to the precepts defined. I can't ignore the realities that these are situations that can be vacated if necessary. Oftentimes when personal rights or desires are infringed upon the door is the likely outcome rather than the tightening of the tether. In my opinion real slavery or the consensual sort we speak of takes a lot of love, unselfishness, and a sincere commitment to something far bigger than either person involved. If the relationship sits at the forefront rather than the supposed figurehead then maybe we'll see a manifestation of an enlightened brand of slavery that is healthy and expansive for all involved. Without this I'm skeptical if that level of devotion truly exists in the manner its proclaimed.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:01:06 PM   
Bravado


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While I don't deny the master/slave dynamic can be in many ways real and no doubt very fulfilling, those who insist that they are or their partner is a "true slave," it brings to question the meaning and intent of such a claim. I understand how important it may be to someone's identity, but the I am doubtful to its legitimacy and suspicious of their intent. Or rather, it is quite clear to me that they feel it's something to brag about.

In an awkward and amusing way, the phrase "true slave" seems like some kind of egotistic elitism among a group that you would expect to be more docile.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:09:36 PM   
lovingpet


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So your issue is with the word "true" and not "slave".  Your OP reads otherwise.  I don't need to be "true" anything, just true to myself and perfect for my partner.  Everyone else be damned.

lovingpet


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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:17:30 PM   
Bravado


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My words were stated as intended, and I take no responsibility for inaccurate interpretation. If anyone wants a refund, bring a large airtight back for all the hot air that has been expended here ;)

< Message edited by Bravado -- 9/29/2010 9:18:05 PM >

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:18:59 PM   
lovingpet


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*pets OP's fluffy little troll hair and skips off*  

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:26:24 PM   
allyC


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Using fast reply...

I think the problem is more with the word "true" than with "slave" as everyone's truth will vary somewhat. Many people say that they are a true slave, true master, true dom, etc., as a way to elevate themselves somehow. And perhaps others do so to try to convey that they are serious and genuine in what they do. One person's truth, however, might not be someone else's.

The reality is that with the second word, there is more than one definition for it even by dictionary standards. A person does not need to be held against their will to be defined as a slave. They do not have to be held legally to be defined as a slave. They do not need to be mistreated or abused to be defined as a slave. They don't have to be kindnapped, captive, prisoner, or sold to be defined as a slave.

The criteria is as follows: That person must be abjectly subservient to a dominating influence or force.

Well within the confines of that, I know many, MANY people in the M/s, BDSM, D/s, etc. lifestyles who fit into that very nicely.

As for whether they are "true" slaves or not - I guess that would depend on the personal truths of the owner and the slave.

Well wishes,

Cav's ally

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:39:40 PM   
AnnaOfAramis


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quote:

"true slave," it brings to question the meaning and intent of such a claim


The problem with "true" anything is that there are often many truths. There were many types of slavery in history- from the American southern type, the hauling pyramid rocks type, the live-in-a-palace-and-be-eye-candy-for-the-sultan type, and many other types in between. They were all real slaves, though their existence was quite different. There were even slaves who had "rights" (an oft mentioned supposed truism being that a "true" slave can't have rights) and there were slaves who even chose to go into slavery- real consensual slavery. As well as slaves who were allowed to work and save up to buy their freedom if they wished.

While a slave in the BDSM or Gorean lifestyles might not be owned in a legal sense, if they are mastered and held in a relationship that is very similar to certain forms of slavery, then does it matter whether or not it is like other types of slavery or whether it is legal? One could say that a "mother" is not really a mother unless she has literally given birth. But isn't the experience of being a step-mom or an adoptive parent very similar? It really wouldn't be fair to say they were just "role-playing" being a mom.

As far as "true" slaves go in the lifestyle, perhaps it would better to say a "natural" slave- ie one to whom it feels more natural and comfortable to exist as a slave than as free.

Well wishes,
anna

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 9:58:46 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

If there's anything that I've learned in my tender 25 years of life, .



I've consumed all this popcorn, trying to figure what the whole point to this thread was....

....and this one line above explains it all. 

Oh please...enlighten us further.  I'll go make some s'mores.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 10:37:52 PM   
CalifChick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hausboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

If there's anything that I've learned in my tender 25 years of life, .



I've consumed all this popcorn, trying to figure what the whole point to this thread was....

....and this one line above explains it all. 

Oh please...enlighten us further.  I'll go make some s'mores.



I'll take, "What is an age-is-just-a-number-thread in disguise" for five hundred, Alec.

Oh, and let's not forget, I'll take, "What is, Hotch should post more often so we have more chances to gaze at his chest" for a thousand.


Cali
(has never called herself a true anything that she can remember)


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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 10:43:03 PM   
Kindandcruel


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This is always an interesting thread... it is true that one so young (25 or even 27) has not really had much time around to get a more in-depth understanding of life itself let alone the underlying currents of being a slave. No disrespect intended, but the vast majority of people are a summation of their social and cultural programming regardless of the path they ultimately take. This does reference that the religious right are just as socially programmed as the extreme liberal left.

I don't speak of this lightly or just as an opinion, I speak of it from studying social programming and behavioral psychology for 30 years. This is not just reading books but from living in a multitude of countries for extended lengths of time (more than a year each).

Most that believe they are a slave in reality are playing a reality fantasy of being a slave. It is play that they enjoy and have fun at (there is nothing wrong with that either). The vast majority of women that advertise as being slaves are enamored about the fantasy from reading books or just their imagination itself that is so tillitating. Something that they see as a sexual adventure for their own selfish play. There is no question that today’s culture and society teach women that there is a high price for that hole between their legs... they are taught that it can command men to do things they normally wouldn't and that they can make great material gains id they use that hole properly... but if a woman just uses it just for fun and gives it away, she is then labeled a slut by other women that demand a price for theirs.

The one thing about being a submissive or a slave is that psychologically you have to actually give that up. In addition, you give up control of your self and your life to another person to have total responsibility for you. Ultimately, even though you have the so called final say of leaving, you cannot be a slave if you hold that option close to your heart. Seeing that as an ultimate option within itself takes away the deeper core attribute and psychology of being a slave. I can't say how many newer slaves have dropped out of my house when they realized that I would and did take total control from them... even thought it was their greatest dream or fantasy when faced with the reality they experienced dissociative cognizance and rather than working through the programming patterns they ended up running elsewhere to find a Master they can manipulate. Yet, even after going to multitudes of Masters they would give up and claim their are no so called "real" dominants because they were not willing to break their own myopic and dysfunctional behavior.

In order to be like this as a slave, it is, and can no longer be a game or a fantasy. If you really want the depth and range of being a slave you first have to understand the attitude that is required from within yourself. It can no longer be something that you play with for a while (like a self deluded game) and then drop it, or stay with a master for a few years until you get board or leave. Of course there is a whole lot more to say but this gets across the basic points I hope.

Now, if you are just in it to play, or be used, or whatever with the design that you can always leave... then just be honest with yourself and the Master you are going to be with. In this way you will both have a far greater and more enjoyable experience together.

What is it that I (in my opinion) that makes a consensual slave? That is the overall belief of a person that once committed regardless of what happens good or bad, they are committed. What does being committed mean? Being committed means that they give up all control of their life and being to another person without reservation and without recourse.

How many men are able to handle this kind of commitment? Unfortunately a paltry few. Since the 70's men have been turned into girls, they have been pushed to not exhibit masculine behaviors to the point that they have been put on drugs by the schools to take away their masculinity. Most men today have no clue as to what it is to be a Man. They become abusers, manipulators, they use this avenue to vent their frustration and prey upon women. They have never been shown what honor is, they have not been taught how to be responsible or to stand up for what is right. In fact they haven't even been given any concept of what right and wrong is... this has all been programmed by the public schools that have diminished the genders and dispelled the natural organization of life.

Many will disagree, yet you are only talking from the very programming that I have been speaking about. You will yell and flame and so forth, but is still comes from that same programming. The only saving grace that I can claim on the programming aspect is that while growing up, I moved from country to country every 9 months to a year... I was never long enough in one place to be programmed; but long enough to understand the culture norms. Later in life I traveled specifically to understand these very programming queues that are found in each and every culture. Regardless if it is a religious culture like Iraq or Israel, or something more closer to the earth via the Lakota Sioux, or either that of Nigeria or even South Africa. The programming is there and it is significant. In fact just about everybody will agree about the programming aspect but they cannot see that within themselves as it does cause cognitive dissonance.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/29/2010 11:05:13 PM   
CalifChick


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Who is really contacting the OP...

A CaliWyld production








Attachment (1)

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AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 12:19:30 AM   
crazyml


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Bien sur!

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 1:38:37 AM   
ranja


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lovely picture

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 2:30:19 AM   
LadyRian


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Hey, maybe that guy is my ex's new girlfriend. One can only hope...

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 2:56:50 AM   
AngelGeena


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The poor horse is so far past dead, he's beaten to glue already. edit for typo

< Message edited by AngelGeena -- 9/30/2010 2:57:25 AM >


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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 3:04:24 AM   
Acer49


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bravado

I'm not so stupid as to believe that there are any "true slaves" among the privileged people in the world, so I expect that any sub will have some tangible needs and expectations. When they argue that they have no such needs and are ready to commit themselves to be permanent property, I wonder if they even realize that it is a lie.

If they knew what true slavery was, then they wouldn't be asking for it. If you have the audacity to claim it's something you enjoy and want me to show you what true slavery is, come along, I have plenty of stones to haul and a place to dump your body when you've died of exhaustion.

While I respect that a person may have fantasies, and would like to roleplay the kink of being a real slave, I'm sure I can't be the only one that is annoyed when he is approached by a girl who attempts to convince you that she's the traditional definition of a slave and ready to serve as though all other BDSM slaves are posers. I'm willing to believe that someone out there masturbates to the idea of building a pyramid in the desert for a decade of unrewarded effort until their demise, but I don't think that person is a young white girl who hasn't worked for a decade in any job, let alone something brutal and unforgiving.

Do you suppose these people know that they are lying, or have lost themselves in a delusional fantasy? Have you had any experience relevant to the idea of a "true slave?"

This topic was inspired by the recent news, in which many Nigerian slaves were discovered being trafficked, which is unfortunately fairly common. I have great pity for those people, and their plight makes me wonder how any could convince themselves that it's what they want.



First of all, while this is an open forum in which anyone one is free to voice their opinion, it is not wise to attempt to present those opinions as fact. I have no doubt that your opinions are different than mine. Which one of us is right? you? me? both? or neither?
While I will concede that physical slavery is a delusion because to the best of my knowledge, such practices have been pretty much outlawed in all countries, mental slavery all be it rare, is still a possibility. I believe that slavery can be a living hell as well as one the most rewarding experiences one would ever wish to have. Do not assume that just because an individual has commited themself to another to this degree thay they are somehow weak or deserving to be called a door mat. Becoming a submissive or a slave is neither quick nor easy and there are many ups and downs throughout the journey.

I am not sure what Nigerian slave trafficking has to do with lifestyle choices. Those individuals are not slaves, they are individuals who where placed into non consensual slavery, which in my eyes, is an entirely different thing.


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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 5:55:18 AM   
odysseyIndeed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

Using fast reply...

I think the problem is more with the word "true" than with "slave" as everyone's truth will vary somewhat. Many people say that they are a true slave, true master, true dom, etc., as a way to elevate themselves somehow. And perhaps others do so to try to convey that they are serious and genuine in what they do. One person's truth, however, might not be someone else's.

The reality is that with the second word, there is more than one definition for it even by dictionary standards. A person does not need to be held against their will to be defined as a slave. They do not have to be held legally to be defined as a slave. They do not need to be mistreated or abused to be defined as a slave. They don't have to be kindnapped, captive, prisoner, or sold to be defined as a slave.

The criteria is as follows: That person must be abjectly subservient to a dominating influence or force.

Well within the confines of that, I know many, MANY people in the M/s, BDSM, D/s, etc. lifestyles who fit into that very nicely.

As for whether they are "true" slaves or not - I guess that would depend on the personal truths of the owner and the slave.

Well wishes,

Cav's ally


This is exactly my opinion as well. "Trueness" is subjective.

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 6:12:19 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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~FR~

I could care less what it is called. All I know is that when I tell my girl to get me a drink, fix dinner, clean up a mess or suck my cock, she does it. Now if the question is, does internal enslavement of an individual in a relationship based on extreme dominance and submission occur? Well those of us that have been around, know that answer.

Now the OP can go on spouting about the semantics of certain words, and people can entertain that, but the cause and effect is there so who cares if we call it slavery or glutenbach?



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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: True Slavery, a delusional roleplay. - 9/30/2010 6:24:40 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Ya know...Ma'am just got finished reading the former slave narratives from the 1930's in her text for her American history class. She was shocked. The majority of individuals being interviewed weren't happy with their "freedom". You see, smart owners understood that then it, like with a car today, it costs more to buy a new slave than take care of the one they had. Then again, freedom without a plan to express it safely and with a safety net created some resentment. Many former slaves went from a secured food and shelter situation to not knowing where to go. Those who could, did everything they could to maintain a relationship with their former owners to be able to continue to work and get fed. Some former owners, however, could not afford to pay wages good enough to house and feed their former slaves.

That's not even getting into the indentured servant contracts that didn't really need to be eliminated, rather, they needed to be regulated. Debtors prisons became overrun shortly after the elimination of slavery and indentured servitude in the United States.

But these facts about "true slavery" doesn't change, that like today, some people were and are abusive to their "property" or that people should be able to exercise and enjoy certain human rights.

But knowing these facts would definitively change a person's perspective the "horrors" of "true slavery".


Pondering boi



Actually no it wouldn't. Nobody asks to be born into slavery and nobody asks to be stolen from their homeland, ripped from their families and made to be reliant on another in a strange country with no hope of ever going home.
Becoming dependent through necessities does not = happy slavery, it just = survival.


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