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RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 4:35:25 AM

slavekal

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The first few chapters of my book are all about dispelling those myths. Assuming that all our desires are because of our parents is lazy and illogical. Some white men desire black women. Some guys whose moms are busty like big chested women, but some like small chested women. It is NOT all about childhood abuse. That is how they used to explain homosexuality, but they don't anymore.

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(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 21

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 4:50:11 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

Well thank you for confirming that i am not stupid for not taking stock in what Freud says.I'm currently in an upper level psychology course (which is torture put nicely) where the vast majority of people in the class speak of Freud's theories as if they are law.

In Freud's defense, he was blazing a new field altogether, and did not have anything to go by. However, he used sloppy research methods (not being objective and unbiased. I heard that he begged a friend not to publish findings that comflicted with his own theories), and almost all his stuff is debunked. I'm surprised that an upper level course would not allow for that.

You're not stupid for not buying Freud. Or for anything else that I know of, for that matter.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 22

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 5:20:37 AM

PeonForHer

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
However, he used sloppy research methods (not being objective and unbiased.

He did. I suppose his greatest fault was in generalising too much from a single instance - that of his own psyche. He made the massive assumption that 'everyone's mind is like my mind'.

On the other hand, he performed a feat that most aren't capable of pulling off anymore - he delved very deep into himself. Me, I can't do that to more than a small degree. I've tried hard, but I still can't explain much about myself to myself. I have a few clues as to where my sub tendencies come from, but no more than that. Likewise, I've never read anyone who can explain it even halfway satisfactorily, either. That sort of 'introverted journey' - it's that aspect of Freud that could do with some reviving, nowadays.

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Post #: 23

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 6:00:36 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
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The myth is an old one and dates back to the theory that there must be a stemming cause for people to actually enjoy sadism or masochism. Since there wasn't any way through science to prove the possibility that some people are just born that way (much like slavekal referred to with the similar situation regarding homosexuality) the quest was to find a reason through nurture. Such so-called "perversions" must have a root cause somewhere, and the easiest link to make, without having to actually prove, is to attribute it to something in childhood. After all, it could have been that way, even if we didn't remember it, because it could have happened at an age that we wouldn't remember. Of course, this was really sloppy science, often dictated by suggestion to the theory that such science wanted to see as the conclusion.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 24

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 6:00:50 AM

Twoshoes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

On the other hand, he performed a feat that most aren't capable of pulling off anymore - he delved very deep into himself. Me, I can't do that to more than a small degree. I've tried hard, but I still can't explain much about myself to myself.

For me, I can very easily trace back most of my learned behaviors to specific moments. I can also explain what part of my life shut off my switch-y tendencies and made me not want to give up control.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 25

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 6:43:44 AM

samboct

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There are two separate topics going on here-

1) Is an interest in BDSM some type of "illness"?
2) What is Freud's contribution to the mental health profession?

To the OP- here's the answer Freud might have given....If your verbal attacker claims that you have an illness due to abuse you suffered from childhood, the first question is- do you actually have an illness? I myself have been approached by mothers writing to me, suffering deeply, since their sons have admitted to them that they are homosexual. These women write to me and ask if their sons can be "cured". I have written to them and told them, "Alas, since I do not think homosexuality is a disease, it cannot be cured as such."

So if your attacker claims that you are ill because of your desires involving BDSM, he is mistaken. There is a wide variety of human sexual expression, and sexual expression which is not injurious to others or oneself cannot be considered an illness. It is merely a taste, much as a preference for chocolate over strawberries. I myself prefer both over cocaine these days, a most dangerous drug.

2) About the mental health profession these days and its parlous state of affairs.... (note, I am not a mental health professional, but I am a scientist and I have done work for associations in this field.)

While it is certainly in vogue to find some flaw in Freud's writing or his case histories, and thereby dismiss the man and his work, this has been a grave error. It's quite clear if you watch a field as a whole slide backward. Much of the problem has to do with the professional organizations of psychiatry/psychology. Since these organizations could not agree on a theoretical framework, they have adopted a hodgepodge of ideas and the result is a tower of Babel.

Many noted scientists have dramatic mistakes in some of their published work. Newton's optics for example, are a sick joke- they don't work and he lied about the results. Milliken's oil drop experiment had fudged data- he just came up with the right answer anyhow. Mendel lied about his results in genetics.

Freud's brilliant leap was to take a theory of how we think from philosophy expounded by I. Kant with a rigorous set of structures, and apply it to his patients. If Freud were alive today, he'd be a neuroscientist- he was deeply engrossed with how the brain worked. The problem is that the tools of his time were inadequate, and so he had to look at end results and infer causes, rather than being able to trace them directly. (We still can't- but we're finally making some headway with the brain scan imaging capabilities we've got now.)

Given how long it took to get data and the nature of the data collection process he used, it'd be highly suspicious if Freud didn't make any mistakes. Nevertheless, the framework he came up with has not been successfully replaced. Given how badly the field of mental health is doing these days with treatment failures on the rise and the pharma companies plying much of the population with pills that have significant side effects AND often merely mask the symptoms of an illness, it seems that throwing Freud under the bus has had some pretty significant repercussions and progress in the field has largely stopped.

Sam

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 26

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 7:38:55 AM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum
Was your dominance(and submission for that matter) triggered by a childhood expirence?....or did it just develop out of nowhere?

Hell, My dominance is just an extension of my personality. I never tried to be a leader, but even as a kid I was the sort of person that others looked to in points of stress. I'm the guy people come up to and ask advice from. People just listen to me.
Maybe it's because I'm smart, maybe it's because I'm articulate, maybe it's because I'm passionate and driven about things.
I don't know why, but I am certain that I like being in charge, taking control, and really don't like operating at the whim and will of others (Never have, never will) and have always had the courage to walk my own path, irregardless of others approval. I have a low BS tolerance, like things done a certain way (my way AKA the right way) and am a prick about getting it done according to my standards.
I'm a calculated risk taker, adrenalin junkie, edge player, entrepreneur, anal retentive, obsessive.
Grins
In this light, being dominant is a natural.

Now, causation is a tricky thing. I can argue that I was taught many of these traits via nature and nurture, thus the Freudian sub context may possess some validity. Be that as it may.
I spend little time looking in the rear view mirror wondering about how I evolved into the persona that I am and focus more time on simply enjoying the ride while I'm alive to do so.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 27

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 7:43:42 AM

DesFIP

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Actually I've always thought my submission came out of childhood depression at a time prior to the development of SSRIs. I had so much struggle just to make it through the day that there was no energy to be the decision maker.

Re Freud, although we now know that much of what he thought was wrong, without him there would be no modern psychological thought. Remember, we are now aware of the importance of neurobiology on psychology but this did not exist as a field until the 1970s. Withought modern equipment such as CAT scans and MRIs, no knowledge of the brain really existed.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 10/5/2010 7:47:03 AM >

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(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 28

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 7:52:40 AM

leadership527

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Carol and I are both pretty much as Kana described (her from the sub side of the fence). I'm pretty sure in both cases that there are significant nature and nurture components. Neither of us had any sort of significant childhood event (abuse, etc.) that'd we could reasonably lay any of this at. Carol and I were both reasonably happy & well adjusted kids in decent families.

I can't actually see MY interest in BDSM as any sort of illness. I do nothing with Carol that I haven't done a million times over with various employees. Leadership is leadership. Most vanilla people think of me as either "alpha" or "arrogant" but I've never heard "sick". Given societal expectations, I suppose some might see Carol's personality as some sort of inherent sickness but for myself, I'm hard pressed to name specifically how her general submissiveness to the world at large has caused her any harm.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Kana)

Post #: 29

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 9:37:24 AM

MarcEsadrian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I recieved a very "nice" note today. Apparently, I am only a domme because my father was abusive and that i am also a domme because I am an ugly black bitch that nobody wants. i am in no way hung up on the words-i've been called worse by better. What peaked my interest, so to speak, is the aclaimed past of abuse by somebody whom i've never come in contact with. the racial comment just made me laugh-per usual. But does this Freudian-esque approach to bdsm hold any weight? What is your opinion? Was your dominance(and submission for that matter) triggered by a childhood expirence?....or did it just develop out of nowhere?

One of the most obsequious girls I kept grew up having a wonderful relationship with her father and no childhood abuse whatsoever. She did, however, have a menu of negative social experiences early on from her peers in day to day life. This encouraged a sense of personal inferiority on some level; it weakened her esteem and led her to seek solace and approval in her father, until he died fairly early on in her teens. I think the Freudian connection between these formative circumstances and seeking a strict M/s relationship with a male later on in life is easy to see, though I don't believe childhood traumas are always the cause of D/s interest in an individual.

< Message edited by MarcEsadrian -- 10/5/2010 9:39:40 AM >

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Post #: 30

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 10:11:03 AM

itsmeinLV

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I don't think any part of ourselves just manifested out of nowhere. Our past has a lot to do with who we are today. I wouldn't say my childhood is what lead me to being submissive. A lot of the structure I like in a relationship, bdsm or not, does come from my upbringing though.

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 31

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 10:12:03 AM

lovingpet

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For me, who knows! If I look at it, everything about me was the perfect storm for a submiissively inclined switch to develop. I could blame it on abuse or neglect. I dealt with both at some point in my life both as a child and as an adult. I could blame it on basic biology and a hard wiring of sorts and even a need for at least the masochistic side of thing from a health related standpoint. I can even look at my personality and state that there is a natural inclination in general and definitely within the confines of intimate relationships. Add to that, I had a traditional upbringing with streaks of modern family styles coming into the picture. The result of all this is a switch with deep submissive needs and only a very slim likelihood of desiring to dominate another, but those instances would come with a primal and total intensity that frankly still scares me a little exists within me. So was it upbringing and childhood abuse? I guess it could be, but I think it is more the totality of the person, environment, and biology.

lovingpet

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(in reply to MarcEsadrian)

Post #: 32

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 10:25:20 AM

Tetron

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As far as dominance and submission goes it appears from what I have read, and the research I have done to be both a matter of genetics and upbringing. From what my understanding and research into biology, evolution, and anecdotal evidence from cultural anthropology and current social trends girls appear to be born with the instinct for submission while men are born with the instinct for dominance. The upbringing a person experiences determines if they repress or express these instincts. While there are exceptions generally those who repress these instincts tend to be less satisfied with their lives, and indulge in far more significant overcompensation. Unfortunately because the current culture so abhors the instinctual power dynamics humans are born with, many do repress these which is why stress is increasingly common and serious in cultures that deny the natural power dynamics of human relationships.

(in reply to lovingpet)

Post #: 33

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 1:31:52 PM

BoiJen

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I think that analyzing Freud is important. He's considered the "Father of Psychology" because he made it cool to wanna know what the hell makes people think. His contributions to psychology as we know it today are more social in context than in the actual science or relativity of his theories or "findings".

However, like other folks, now I wanna know what the name of your class is or, rather, what the objective is for you within the class because Freud being introduced on anything other than historical and social contexts or as anything other than an incredibly interesting case study seems a little...outdated.

Now, given the changes being proposed to the DSM currently, the class I'm going to enjoy the most is "Psychopathology" which started yesterday for me.

boi

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Post #: 34

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 2:03:25 PM

samboct

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Jen

I'd say that Freud's contributions run much deeper than just knowing what people want to think. His Interpretation of Dreams showed that understanding dreams helps unravel some of the drives of the conscious mind- and that much of the symbolism of dreams is universal. As an example the symbolism of money in a dream translating to feces. A wonderful explanation of the purpose of dreaming- how it enables long term memories to form, can be found in "Dreaming and Memory" by Stanley Palumbo- who uses a Freudian framework to interpret dreams.

I'd also be leary about taking the DSM as gospel- some of the senior people in the American Psychoanalytic Association would probably have little positive to say about it. It's a book written by committee, with far too much input from big pharma.

Unfortunately, the field of analysis has had little scientific rigor applied, which is why a century later, there's been little progress. One of the hopeful signs is that talk therapy has been shown to affect brain chemistry long term using fMRI, which means that there may now be some ways to quantify the benefits or failures of this type of therapy.

Sam

(in reply to BoiJen)

Post #: 35

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 5:36:01 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
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Psychology is not my discipline, so I have nothing to add that would bring enlightenment to your question. However, I have often pondered what the connection is between psychology and BDSM.

My personal situation is so common that it is almost a stereotype. I had a very normal childhood, and I was a high achiever academically and athletically. I was voted most popular in my high school, and people always looked up to me. I did well in college, and went on to have a very successful career in corporate America before leaving to start my own company. I am always "The Boss", and people naturally defer to me. Yet, in my private life, like so many high-powered executives, I secretly (or not-so-secretly) desire to be dominated by my secretary.

Most who know me would never believe that I prefer to be submissive in my private life. In fact, they would probably say that I have one of the most dominant personalities that they've ever come across. Nevertheless, I prefer to be submissive in my private life.

I don't understand the psychology of this, but I know that I fit that caricature perfectly. Surely there must be a psychological explanation for why so many executives who are "always in charge" secretly desire to drop the mantle of leadership and submit to others. If anyone knows of any studies that have been done, or papers that have been written on the topic, I'd love to know about them. Like Slave Kal, I haven't done nearly enough introspection. Perhaps it is time to do so.

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 10/5/2010 5:40:05 PM >

(in reply to MissAsylum)

Post #: 36

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 5:53:02 PM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcEsadrian

One of the most obsequious girls I kept grew up having a wonderful relationship with her father and no childhood abuse whatsoever. She did, however, have a menu of negative social experiences early on from her peers in day to day life. This encouraged a sense of personal inferiority on some level; it weakened her esteem and led her to seek solace and approval in her father, until he died fairly early on in her teens. I think the Freudian connection between these formative circumstances and seeking a strict M/s relationship with a male later on in life is easy to see, though I don't believe childhood traumas are always the cause of D/s interest in an individual.

Greetings Marc,

I'm uncertain if M/s relationships can provide the healing salve or reconciliation that the injured party requires. However, in the right circumstances (with a willing party) the union can provide a safe environment to explore and release the past without condemnation and fear. Sometimes the greatest challenge is getting the individual to recognize the impact their parent has had (and is having) on their decision making. Oftentimes they never realize their unconscious attempt to replicate what was lost. The truth is simply too painful to articulate. At least that's been my experience.

Namaste,

~porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Post #: 37

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 5:56:45 PM

leadership527

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How fascinating Rochsub. You and I are apparently alike in all but one respect. Like you, I did well in school, both athletically (although where I grew up, being a "jock" was football team only... tennis and track athletes need not apply) and scholastically. My career took off well and didn't stop after that. I wouldn't call myself a "high powered executive". I was more a "medium fish in a really big pond". Like you, people defer to me.. etc. etc.

The one difference that I can find though is that unlike you, I don't find the mantle of leadership a burden. Sure, as you know, it's a pain in the ass, but to me it's a GOOD pain in the ass. It feeds me so I have no need or desire to drop the mantle of leadership.

I have to wonder if this is like the introvert/extrovert thing. Introverts can behave extroverted and vice versa. Where you see the truth is in how someone gets fed. If you come back from a social gathering charged, your probably an extrovert. If you come back exhausted, you're probably an introvert. Both states are independent of how you actually behaved at the social gathering. So as a wild speculation, could it be that you have all the skills and abilities required to lead successfully and so you do and it has paid off handsomely for you materially. But where you are fed is in following, not leading?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 38

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 6:05:06 PM

Rochsub2009

Posts: 2536
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Interesting that you should mention introversion versus extroversion. Most people think that I am extremely extroverted. I can work a room with the best of them. And if you put me in a room with 30 complete strangers, in 1 hour I will be able to tell you details about each of them, and I will also be the accepted leader in the group. It's always been that way.

Yet, my Meyers-Briggs profile is INTJ. When people hear that, they say that there is no way that I could possibly be an Introvert. They assume that I meant ENTJ. But I know that I am definitely more energized by private time than I am by going out to a big social event. So I am definitely an "I" and not an "E".

For me, being outgoing, likeable, and a "natural leader" are skills that I acquired and use well. But at the end of the day, I still want my secretary to force me to my knees and have her way with me.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 39

RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 6:33:14 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Wow. This may be the closest I've come to understanding the "by relationship orientation" side of the world. For both myself and Carol, our lives are fairly consistent. She submits everywhere. I dom everywhere. That is what feeds us. I've never been able to make any sense of the situation where someone is dominant one place and submissive the other. But if this analogy to introvert/extrovert holds water, then it suddenly makes a lot of sense.

So, to reword this wild speculation...

You and I are both leaders out in the world. We both have the spiffy clothes to go with it and we both carry those clothes well. But on me, they actually fit comfortably and on you it's not quite right. Yet obviously, there's a lot of reasons why you'd want to cope with the discomfort. Let's face it, leadership positions pay significantly better than followers as a general rule. And, I'd also have to speculate that "not a comfortable fit" doesn't mean "total disaster". I can find joy in submitting to a person I find worthy too. I've done so quite happily with a few people I strongly respected in the workplace and I've made no bones about happily doing it with Carol if that fed her somehow. That role takes effort on my part and so over time it would be draining. But that doesn't mean that I can't do it and do it well and enjoy it when I think it's appropriate or needful.

Edited to add this possibly useless example
It occurred to me that for those of the more sexual D/s bent, "submitting in the workplace" would make no sense. So here's one specific example to paint the picture...

In general, I'm not a big fan of positional authority. Someone's box on an orgchart doesn't get much mileage with me. You're either more dominant than me (unlikely), or more right than me (certainly very possible), or I ignore you. I've blatantly ignored a lot of managers in my life and I've never been fired or even reprimanded for it. That's a part of what dominance means to me.

Yet for all that, there was a situation where I had an employee with a particular needs. She was a very, very good employee and I owed her. So I went a few levels up the chain and dropped the problem at this manager's feet. He listened to me. He sympathized greatly. Then he said, "I wish I could help you but...." and he gave me a long laundry list of very good reasons why what my employee needed was impossible. I looked at him and said, "Fred, I hear you. But I need this to happen. I need YOU to make it happen." He took a deep breath, reorganized his thoughts entirely, then crafted a way to make it happen.

Later on, this same manager had given me responsibility for a project. I got the ops review material, took one look at it, and stormed into his office saying, "Fred, this is ridiculous. There is no way that this project can succeed with these requirements in this timeline." He took a look at me and said, "Jeff, I hear you. You're right. But there are high level politics in play here and I need you to make this work."

What could I do? I owed him. He was wrong. He knew it and admitted it. It wasn't possible. He didn't fit the criteria of being either more dominant than me or more right than me, but I submitted. Then I worked a few 100 hour weeks, re-oganized the project entirely, gave him the paper political win he needed and at the same time ensured the project would succeed.

I obeyed because I owed him and because I respected him. Those are the same reasons Carol obeys me.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 10/5/2010 6:59:10 PM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Rochsub2009)

Post #: 40

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