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RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 6:55:47 PM   
CaringandReal


Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I recieved a very "nice" note today. Apparently, I am only a domme because my father was abusive and that i am also a domme because I am an ugly black bitch that nobody wants. i am in no way hung up on the words-i've been called worse by better. What peaked my interest, so to speak, is the aclaimed past of abuse by somebody whom i've never come in contact with. the racial comment just made me laugh-per usual. But does this Freudian-esque approach to bdsm hold any weight? What is your opinion? Was your dominance(and submission for that matter) triggered by a childhood expirence?....or did it just develop out of nowhere?


I like the way you made lemonade from this lemon. ;) Very interesting thread!

I don't believe much in Mr. Freud's theories although I am a walking example of one. My father was Italian, very dominant and aggressive in the way Italian men were many decades ago when there was no political correctness, I was his firstborn and he treated me in special ways, although he was also quite cruel, physically and emotionally when he got drunk. I adored him, always tried to please him, even loved my punishments. I ignored the humiliations and shocking behavior. He was very smart and charming and inspired my full loyalty. He could do no wrong in my eyes. This amazing person died unexpectedly when I was eight. And guess what I wound up as? Pretty classic case.

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(in reply to MissAsylum)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 7:05:37 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline 		In a sense, I think you are partially correct.  I am very good at being in charge.  But being in charge was never what energized me.  It was just a necessity in order to gain the needed outcome.  And as you mentioned, it paid better. 

I don't want to hijack this thread any further.  But I do hope that someone can suggest a book or article that might shed some light on this.  I'd love to learn more about how the psychology world views BDSM in general, and on my particular profile (exec who wants to submit to female underlings) in particular.

Edited because I just read your edit:

The source of my corporate power was never my natural dominance.  It was my problem solving ability.  I have a natural way of seeing things differently than others do.  So I was able to grow every business that I was put in charge of.  Pretty soon, they started giving me "problem businesses", and I grew those as well.  Others would avoid these businesses because they were viewed as "career killers".  I, on the other hand, embraced them as worthy challenges.  Once I turned had around a few problem businesses, I got labeled a "turnaround manager", and in corporate America, that is a very valuable skill to have.  So they kept giving me bigger and bigger businesses to manage (and more money and power to go along with it).  Pretty soon I was managing a $1.5 billion division of a Fortune 30 corporation.

Most of my peers viewed the money and the power as the endgame.  But I never cared about that.  It was the intellectual challenge that motivated me.  I was always a problem solver at heart.  To me, coming up with a strategy to turn around a struggling division is no different than solving a soduku puzzle. It's energizing and fun.

I got tired of the politics and the corporate B.S., and I became a consultant.  As a consultant, I got to focus on the intellectual challenges without having to deal with all the other B.S. that I never enjoyed anyway.


< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 10/5/2010 7:22:57 PM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 7:08:10 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
Seriously I didn't read beyond the second response. I am just kinky. I was raised by Ward and June Cleaver, I have parents that are still happily married after 46 years. I was never spanked or suffered any abuse and I don't have a single memory of anything painful in my childhood. I just like what I like and I don't waste a lot of time delving into the whys of it. I get absolutely irritated with the common mentality that women that submit must have been abused. If anything I have had such a vanilla childhood that maybe I sought this out of boredom, who knows...

I do believe this though:

Carl jung believed in a shadow self, a dark side to each of us that we learn to hide. Within this darkness dwells our forbidden appetites, our secret beliefs about ourselves and the world around us, the ugly traits and flaws that we hate and seek to bury. But jung held that there was no denying this part of ourselves, that the more we tried to hide it, pretend it didn't exist, the more audaciously the universe would conspire to reveal it. He maintained that this shadow craved more than anything to be recognized and embraced. Only when we have forgiven it can we truly be whole, truly be free." -


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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to MissAsylum)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 7:26:28 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		To rochsub and Jeff:

Personally, I believe you can make yourself act in any way you desire, if you put your mind to it, yet some things will always bring more pleasure than others.

And if you happen to enjoy acting, you get pleasure from managing to feel different motivations and displaying different reactions.

(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 8:17:58 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		I think this thread is a wonderful example of why poor Freud gets blamed for a lot, and credited for little.

Taking a step back- there is such a thing as free will, and the genes and the environment you grow up in don't determine who you become- although they certainly have an important effect! But to Roch and Leadership- I think both of you are looking for explanations that probably don't hold much water. I suspect you could take two other guys with a similar background and see the opposite sexual identities.

My viewpoint is that these sexual tastes are not really that important part of our makeup. Whether one is dominant or submissive really doesn't matter much in terms careers, children, and the type of person you have a relationship with. It's like the difference between vanilla and chocolate- how much impact does that really have on a person's life? And yes, there probably are personality traits that go along with preferring chocolate to vanilla, but I suspect the linkage is not that strong.

Note- I tend to think that most people on these boards don't have anything that Freud would call a sexual dysfunction. It's not like people in Vienna didn't enjoy a touch of the lash in their lovemaking. There's a difference between kinky and fetish. I know that some people here revel in the term "pervert" but really, I don't think it's a very accurate description of most of the people here. Fetishists and perverts aren't really interested in relationships and there are at least a fair percentage of people on this board that are.

So I'm not convinced that Freud could explain sexual tastes to the extent that people give him credit for. Freud would probably have trouble explaining kinky tastes- it's not an illness and falls into the range of human variation in sex. Freud would have much more success delving into fetishes- and kink and fetish is not synonymous although it's often treated that way in lay terms.

Cheers,

Sam

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/5/2010 9:31:49 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I have to agree with Aynne. I had a lovely childhood, no abuse, great parents and siblings. I just knew I was kinky from an early age.

I also have analyized why I am submissive; it is very obvious to me why I am in need of a man in control. I am a strong woman and have to be very assertive in my life.

My greatest joy is giving up control. It is the way I am and it is not likely to change. I believe in embracing your entire self, dark side and all.

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/7/2010 12:52:47 PM   
MarcEsadrian


Posts: 852
Joined: 8/24/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Oftentimes they never realize their unconscious attempt to replicate what was lost.


This was salient in that it applies to so much having to do with human nature, from my observation. The attempt to resolve past trauma through replication of some form is widely practiced, though as you mention above, often it seems a subconscious process.

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Founder, Humbled Females

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/7/2010 2:37:29 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I recieved a very "nice" note today. Apparently, I am only a domme because my father was abusive and that i am also a domme because I am an ugly black bitch that nobody wants. i am in no way hung up on the words-i've been called worse by better. What peaked my interest, so to speak, is the aclaimed past of abuse by somebody whom i've never come in contact with. the racial comment just made me laugh-per usual. But does this Freudian-esque approach to bdsm hold any weight? What is your opinion? Was your dominance(and submission for that matter) triggered by a childhood expirence?....or did it just develop out of nowhere?


You're beautiful. I dunno about all the other stuff.

(in reply to MissAsylum)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/7/2010 4:23:09 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		I think the whole concept of "Nature vs Nurture" will forever be bandied about. I have certainly worked with people who have behaviors that are directly related to abuse in their past. But i have also worked with people who defy whatever that abuse could have done to them. I think our sexuality is a complex mix of both. We all are born with certain predispositions, but then exposure can certainly mold our interests. If this wasn't true why bother learning anything? I just don't see any part of what we do as being different than our sexual orientation.

I think your messenger told alot more about their own psychology than yours

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/7/2010 5:09:21 PM   
strangedesire


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/23/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

Most of my peers viewed the money and the power as the endgame.  But I never cared about that.  It was the intellectual challenge that motivated me.  I was always a problem solver at heart.  To me, coming up with a strategy to turn around a struggling division is no different than solving a soduku puzzle. It's energizing and fun.

I got tired of the politics and the corporate B.S., and I became a consultant.  As a consultant, I got to focus on the intellectual challenges without having to deal with all the other B.S. that I never enjoyed anyway.



*further threadjack*

That's the sexiest thing I've read all week. Smart people who use their intelligence to solve real-world problem... *swoon*


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On that other site as Exegesis.

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/7/2010 5:13:37 PM   
strangedesire


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/23/2008
Status: offline 		I'm not that into bondage: it's fun on occasion, but doesn't do a huge amount for me. The running joke among my kinky and kink-friendly friends is that I'm into DSM.

I've had my moments of mental instability in the past. Many of my friends, lovers, and play partners have as well. We aren't normal people. However, I don't know anyone that was abused in a way that lines up with their particular kinks. It's just another part of who we are.


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On that other site as Exegesis.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/8/2010 10:23:51 AM   
submitting4U


Posts: 64
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline 		I am a psychobabblist by trade and yes i do believe that early childhood experiences and our inherited "hard wire" all engender D/s positioning and the development of fetishes. In particular, I recommend the readings of Michael Bader, Sexual Arousal, and Male Sexuality, as two treatises that help explain the dynamics. Ester Perle wrote, Mating in Captivity, another insightful read in sexual proclivities and relational penchants. Without boring you all further, suffice to say, I believe we are playing out a subconscious drama just as vanilla folks do. Our "script" is different, that's all. There is little difference between in the dynamic of the woman that keeps finding the batterer husband and the "mench" who cannot stand up for himself in light of public disgrace. As a submissive, and in my own therapy, I have learned the antecedents of my "slave position." It is not mandatory, but important to learn because many of us are parents, least we repeat the trauma onto our children. there is little about the slave position, I would ever want my children to experience. Likewise, I don't aspire them to become cold, sadistic, dominants either ... One man's opinion!

(in reply to MissAsylum)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/8/2010 2:32:54 PM   
Rochsub2009


Posts: 2536
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: submitting4U

I am a psychobabblist by trade and yes i do believe that early childhood experiences and our inherited "hard wire" all engender D/s positioning and the development of fetishes. In particular, I recommend the readings of Michael Bader, Sexual Arousal, and Male Sexuality, as two treatises that help explain the dynamics. Ester Perle wrote, Mating in Captivity, another insightful read in sexual proclivities and relational penchants.


Thank you for the recommendations.  I will look those up.  They sound like a good start.

(in reply to submitting4U)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/8/2010 7:18:59 PM   
submitting4U


Posts: 64
Joined: 8/16/2010
Status: offline 		You are most welcome. Most folks fear the inner truth as internal inquery gives rise to shame about sexual tendencies and the like. It is what it is and we must stay as safe as we can ... good luck to You on your journey!

(in reply to Rochsub2009)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/10/2010 4:04:49 AM   
Petronius


Posts: 289
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I republish this quotation every so often because, as others have remarked, the topic keeps coming up.

"While there is a paucity of data concerning the psychological problems of S/M practitioners, some preliminary data has been presented. S/M practitioners have not been shown to have any particular psychiatric problems or even any unique problems associated with their activities that interfere with daily functioning. There is no scientific basis to deny S/M practitioners child custody, adoption opportunities, any job, security clearances, or any other right or privilege in this society."
   Charles Moser
   "Summary: The Psychology of Sadomasochism (S/M)"
   Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology
   Humboldt-Universitaet zu Berlin

(BTW: Freud's trauma theory, which is rarely that presented by people who say they're presenting Freud's trauma theory, was something Freud himself dropped rather early in his development of psychoanalysis. Even professionals who attack Freud for dropping the theory and demand we return to it don't actually present the theory Freud had developed as a causal factor in the development of hysteria and obsessive-compulsive states, nor do they use his definitions of, among other things, words like "seduction.")


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/10/2010 5:53:15 AM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline 		There are armchair psychologists everywhere. And there are real ones. And  so far, it seems to be that all hypotheses are precisely that- hypotheses. Nobody knows for sure. Theories come and theories go. People are people, it's case by case, but there's such a distinct need in the "profession" to categorise, and try to gain understanding through categorisation. But human beings defy neat little categories.
SO on and on they go, theorising and hypothesising. Some insight is gained, but when all is said and done,  nobody knows for sure.

This is where "acceptance" comes in, or at least it should.



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"Dodging bullets since 2010"

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/10/2010 7:03:23 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		For myself ......I simply don't care , nor do I think it's relevant. It's not going to change what I choose to do. There are some things that are worth trying to find the *root* of, if they are having a perceivably negative impact on my life but other that........if I'm happy in my little herb garden, I'm not going to rake it over.

I'm not submissive OR dominant, so don't have much to rake over apart from * Why would you choose this?* ...the answer is * It suits me more of the time than not*.

Simples.

agirl





(in reply to MissAsylum)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/10/2010 7:40:02 AM   
txurinal


Posts: 209
Joined: 9/26/2009
Status: offline 		My first experiences were with female dommes. Even though i am a gay male when i was starting to explore my submissiveness in the 70's, male dommes were hard to find. Interestingly enough, i was introduced to my first experience with a MASTER by a MISTRESS.

i have often been asked why i like pain. My answer is i do not like it although sessions usually include spankings or whippings or some other forms of "discomfort". So why do i do it? Only because it seems to satify a basic need that i have and in my mind, serving and submitting to someone justifies my existence. Basically, i get a great deal of pleasure from it.

I could go to a therapist and spend $100s of dollars and endless hours trying to figure out why i "need" this or i can just simply enjoy it an not look for some deep seated cause or reason

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/10/2010 10:27:23 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		I can only speak for myself, though I do absolutely believe that personality, interactions with family members, classmates and friends, words, images, feelings and exposure to various concepts - even lightly - has a humongous affect on sexuality. Everything that happens to us as children (including the cereal you spilled at your friend's house once) makes a lasting impression on everything to do with who we are. If someone once told you you were ugly, you took that to heart, whether you "got over it" or not. If someone once brushed your hair lovingly, that association will stay with you for as long as there are brushes. It's not like an inescapable loop, or something that paralyzes us into being what we are told to be, but it absolutely colors our psychological reactions.

Personally, I was emotionally abused by my dad, and treated like a loved person worthy of respect and happiness by my lesbian moms. It's no huge surprise then that I am very happy and healthy and well adjusted, except that I seek out emotionally distant men to hurt me. Knowing this about myself I'm able to control it to a certain extent and remind myself that the rest of me believes I deserve intimacy and affection, but it absolutely colors my kink, and sometimes not in a great way. I don't think that means being emotionally abused made me submissive, but it changed my perhaps natural submissiveness into what it is. Had I just lived with my moms, I probably wouldn't have been into humiliation/degradation play, and would actually probably have just gotten into a vanilla relationship with a strong man.

Fascinating topic.

(in reply to txurinal)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Psychology and BDSM - 10/10/2010 10:33:37 AM   
odysseyIndeed


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/30/2009
Status: offline 		~ FR ~

My father died when I was a baby and my mother put very little structure or discipline in my upbringing. She was more concerned with being 'liked' in the moment. I believe that lack of structure and the lack of a father figure in my life contributed to the fact I am submissive, however, I am not sure it is only for that reason because my submissive 'tendencies' manifested themselves back to my earliest childhood memories in  my interactions with male friends.

< Message edited by odysseyIndeed -- 10/10/2010 10:34:31 AM >

(in reply to txurinal)
Profile   Post #: 60
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