Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward)


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Wo... - 10/26/2010 10:26:40 AM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
The election of Barack Obama has made certain fault lines in our country appear more vividly and while it is not 1859 by any means, it appears that there is a large region of the country that is committed to ignorant reactions when confronted with the case of the first black president. Many contemporary historians have argued the uniqueness of the South has been fading with the region’s mass commercialization, the embrace of consumer culture by the region and the proliferation of national media. After all, a strip mall in South Carolina bears an uncanny resemblance to one in a Northern suburb. The election of Barack Obama has made clear that regionalism is alive and the South remains distinctive in an exceedingly negative way. Indeed, absent the South, the United States would be a far more educated, progressive and humane country. While this appraisal seems harsh, it is electorally inescapable. Indeed, absent the large African-American population, the region would appear even more reactionary in its politics.


The front page of the New York Times almost a year ago ran a fascinating article on how David Vitter, of DC Madame fame, is the favorite in his race for re-election because his opponents were supporters of Barack Obama, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/us/11vitter.html?_r=1&ref=politics as well as an equally relevant article on Congressman Joe Wilson (R-SC) and the lack of universal condemnation in his district, http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/us/politics/11wilson.html?ref=politics. These stories coupled with the simply shocking poll results that a majority of Southerners (53%) don’t accept that President Obama was born in the United States, indicate a region addicted to ignorance and a threat to the future of democratic governance in America. The advertisements in support of Senator Vitter actually have a picture of a hippie on them, that nearly extinct species that in large numbers abandoned their youthful anti-establishment views and embraced cocaine, Wall Street and uber-capitalism. Because the South is the focal point of the anti-Obama rhetoric, it becomes impossible to discount the role of race in what most often appears to be unthinking criticism. Some principled conservatives might argue that much of the opposition is simply a philosophically consistent dedication to decentralized government and a healthy fear of powerful government and growing deficits.


The deficit argument seems patent nonsense. The Southern conservatives did not become the least bit overheated over Reagan’s record deficit spending or George W. Bush’s reckless fiscal policy that turned surpluses into record deficits (most of the deficits now allegedly animating these tea-bag morons, are a direct legacy of President Bush). The deficit is clearly cover for other motivations. As far as a small government philosophy providing principled opposition to Federal expansion, that falls apart under historical analysis. Putting aside the irony that the two regions of the country most dependent on Federal largess are the most opposed to the ‘government,’ we must ask how the South came to be so opposed to Federal powers. At virtually every step, Southern opposition to Federal powers was related to retaining a system of white superiority. Historian William W. Freehling has established fairly conclusively that even the nullification controversy regarding the Federal Tariff (supported by Calhoun originally) was a controversy about slavery. Indeed, when the Federal Government’s power could be brought to bear in favor of white supremacy, as with the Fugitive Slave law of 1850, Southerners objected little to the large expansion of Federal power.


Southern politicians objected little to the radical expansion of federal control over individual lives brought about by Prohibition. Yet, some of the exact same southern politicians pled States Rights while opposing woman suffrage through the 19th Amendment, as they were fearful that Federal involvement in voting rights would interfere with their disenfranchisement of African-Americans. Southern fears of big government waned again during the New Deal as long as the deal would not include backs (this is why domestic workers were not covered by Social Security initially).


Southern resistance to big government waxed after Brown v. Board of Education because this decision again represented a threat to the Southern system of white supremacy. This resistance grew as the federal government increased efforts to enfranchise African-Americans. Of course, the South rarely objected to increased federal spending on defense and arms as that did not implicate the system of white supremacy and provided jobs and economic activity.


While the racial problem is not exclusive to the South, the region retains a distinctiveness as revealed by the inexplicable agitation following President Obama’s election. You can disagree with the President’s policies, but to fail to acknowledge his legitimacy (the most decisive election since Reagan’s second term), his grace, class and fundamental decency reveals a deeper cultural pathology. He might be wrong on particular policies, but to view him as a threat to America is a reflection of the insecurity of the protesters confronted with a President who finally doesn’t look like them. The question is how does the rest of the nation deal with a region still so out of synch with American values.


Profile   Post #: 1
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 10:58:25 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
Spoken like someone who has never been south of Philadelphia.

Personally, I have been from Key West to Anchorage, Caribou ME to Phoenix and I have seen a LOT more overt racist behavior in the northern part of the country (Miami being the exception because everyone hates everyone there).

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 11:23:03 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

After all, a strip mall in South Carolina bears an uncanny resemblance to one in a Northern suburb.


What does this have to do with the OP? Its rather silly to imply that because two strip malls look alike that the "uniqueness" of the south is disappearing.

I have to echo Williams post. I have lived in the south most of my life, but have moved to california, missouri, ohio and pa. i grew up in the military in NJ.

quote:

Indeed, absent the South, the United States would be a far more educated, progressive and humane country.


Define the region you consider the "South"

quote:

These stories coupled with the simply shocking poll results that a majority of Southerners (53%) don’t accept that President Obama was born in the United States, indicate a region addicted to ignorance and a threat to the future of democratic governance in America.


Polls can be skewed to give the results desired... or didnt you know that. The source of the poll, if you please. The results i have found were 2009 polls. Nothing current gives close to those numbers.



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 12:55:07 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Yes, the polls are a year old. Are you asserting that cultural or political attitudes in the country have dramatically changed since last year?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 12:56:28 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:01:37 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
I can see tazzy's point about your lumping the South together in a mass. While there are a few escapees from Deliverance shambling about the bible belt playing banjos, there's also a lot of far more cosmopolitan counties (and, come to that, States) which resent being stereotyped like that. Georgia and Arkansas have both produced Democrat Presidents, after all. Hell, even Texas managed that one...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:07:54 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Of course. My wife did her Ph.D. in the city too busy to hate (it's a funny slogan and makes you wonder what they would do if they had time) and the research triangle area in NC is wonderful as are many other areas. Nevertheless, I am talking about a very real cultural phenomenon is the former slave holding states (as of 1861) and the elections basically support my position, but I do appreciate you pointing out that in no way to I mean everyone in the region.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:16:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.


So i guess the fact that some northern states still accepted slavery, yet were not south of the M-D line eludes you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:22:18 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
Wasn't the issue of slavery in the western territories a big part of what the war was about, come to that?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:26:55 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
I am not sure what you mean by accpeted? The north was absolutely complicit in slavery; I have not sadi otherwise.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:28:01 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
The issue of the expansion of slavery was a large part of the cause for civil war. I am not sure how that related to what we are talking about.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:34:51 PM   
pogo4pres


Posts: 593
Joined: 1/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So i guess the fact that some northern states still accepted slavery, yet were not south of the M-D line eludes you.



Only Delaware was a slave state NORTH of the Mason-Dixon line in 1861. The Mason-Dixon line runs from the Atlantic ocean and, forms the southern border of Delaware - Maryland.  The line turns north at roughly the halfway point between the Atlantic & the Chesapeake  to form the western  border of Delaware - Maryland, then turns to the west at Pennsylvania.   Now Pennsylvania especially the areas south and southwest of Philadelphia were "slavery sympathizers" but the state as a whole was FREE.



Historically,
Some Knucklehead in NJ


_____________________________

"All life is pain highness, anyone that says different is just trying to sell something" The Man in Black (Dread Pirate Roberts)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 1:55:25 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Yes, Delaware was the one exception as a slaveholding state in 1861 that was on the other sine of the line (although techincally East of it not Soth. Thanks.

(in reply to pogo4pres)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 2:33:18 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I, like most historians, define the South as the the former slaveholding states as of 1861, i.e soouth of the Mason-Dixon line and west to the cotton areas of Texas.



June 1861 -- Four Slave States Stay in the Union.
Despite their acceptance of slavery, Delaware, Kentucky, Maryland, and Missouri did not join the Confederacy. Although divided in their loyalties, a combination of political maneuvering and Union military pressure kept these states from seceding.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/cwphtml/tl1861.html

Yet, three from south of that line were part of the union, and still were accepting of slavery.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pogo4pres)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 3:01:20 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
Yes I know as I teach this subject. What's the point.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 3:09:28 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
The point... Teacher... is that your definition isnt accurate.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 3:57:25 PM   
PatrickG38


Posts: 338
Joined: 10/8/2010
Status: offline
You asked me how I defines the south.  If you exclude the non-seceding states by point is even stronger.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 4:04:17 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
good grief what a bunch of mumbo jumbo.....or something.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 4:06:48 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

You asked me how I defines the south.  If you exclude the non-seceding states by point is even stronger.
you makin fun of hows we talk down here?

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Van... - 10/26/2010 4:11:19 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
For a teacher, you make alot of spelling mistakes. But thats neither here nor there.

You are attempting to paint the South as continuing to be backwards and racist... more so than any other part of the country. A year ago, the rumor mills by the birthers began to unravel. Thats why those results were as they were... not because people are stupid or racist, but because they didnt know who to believe among all the liars.

quote:

These stories coupled with the simply shocking poll results that a majority of Southerners (53%) don’t accept that President Obama was born in the United States, indicate a region addicted to ignorance and a threat to the future of democratic governance in America.


I find this comment by you to be extremely prejudicial and full of misinformation. According to the poll you quoted, the following states are in the south...

Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas.

So you assertions that your definition for a southern state is the same as anyone elses... not flying here.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> the Burden of Southern History (apologies to C. Vann Woodward) Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094