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RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 1:47:57 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
you don't have partners, you have conveniences. 


You have such an amazing ability to tell strangers on the Internet what their relationships are really like. *snicker* Is your real name Kreskin?


quote:

What I said was that horny net geeks lack sexual aggression.  I implied that this was a negative.  You immediately jumped in with your irrelevant comments about how that "doesn't work for us".  Once again, you're not the target audience, so your weakness in the face of male sexual aggression is irrelevant.


Reading your post is the best laugh I've had all day, and we've been watching comedy movies for the holiday. LOL If you really don't have a clue what I was saying, I'm not wasting any more electrons explaining it again.


quote:

I made no such claim.  Ye Gods, you can't tell the truth to save your life.  I very specifically implied that lack of sexual aggression is a negative.  And it is.


For you, it's a negative. For other people, it's a positive. Your posts are all about how you know everything there is to know about men and women. People who disagree with you are wrong or lying, not oriented differently. You may not be able to see what's wrong with this picture, but most other folks can.



quote:

No.  You're a liar.  This doesn't even make sense in the context of "sniping about people's orientations".  Basically, you made an error, you got caught and - unlike me - you're simply not strong enough to admit it.


Again, because we have fundamentally different views and orientations, I'm either wrong or a liar. You are utterly unable to comprehend what I'm getting at, so you decide that I'm lying so you can keep on believing that the world is that small.


quote:

I feel sorry for your conveniences.  It must take a sad person with an appalling lack of self-esteem to consent to be used like that.


And now we see what he really thinks of submissive men. It's not pretty.

A pity neither of my partners has a profile here; they'd get a good giggle out of your description. And possibly even find it hot; they like being used. But the low self esteem thing, not so much.


quote:

Your 'relationships' as you call them are founded upon your own lack of self-investment.


ROFL. Please keep the comedy coming.


quote:

In a situation in which you refuse to yield to the possibility of self-investment in another human being, you're not actually involved in a relationship with people.  You've merely retained individuals as conveniences.  That lack of self-investment and the selection criteria which sees you avoid strong individuals with self-respect pretty much guarantee a lack of drama. You don't risk anything, so you rarely suffer the consequences of your decisions.


I'm going to need a shovel here in a minute; it's piling high and deep! Poly relationships tend to be low in drama when everyone involved in them is mature and loving and has good communication skills, in addition to a healthy amount of self esteem and self respect. When anyone in them is fundamentally unhappy or unhealthy, there tends to be rather a lot of drama.


quote:

When you're merely surrounding yourself with human conveniences and are constantly on the lookout for more, you don't have anything more than simple harem management.  A fair amount of men do the same thing, although I note with a certain amount of amusement that only the most manipulative of us call the resulting arrangement "a circle" or "a family".  It's a misrepresentation of a cynical situation founded upon self-interest.


So you think poly as well as femdom is basically pathology, and can only be practiced by unhealthy people who are users and abusers.

I'd tell you again that this bears absolutely no resemblance to my family, but that would be pointless. You're quite sure you know everything there is to know about me and my relationships, and your delusions are actually pretty entertaining, so I'll leave you to them.


_____________________________

Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

(in reply to Awareness)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 2:05:46 PM   
vancraft


Posts: 71
Joined: 8/4/2010
Status: offline 		this isnt really directed at op or anyone just my thoughts on comments similar to this iv heard

"i send casual happy msg to pretty dom girl and she doesnt respond"

i send 2 types of msgs typically, the "wow your really pretty lets grab a coffee or w/e" trying to get a date
and then the casual happy messages saying i like a post or profile note or w/e

if i get shot down/ignored when trying to get a date it bums me out

if someone ignores my casual msg about also being a fan of yawgmoth bargin decks or some other random crap.. i do not care
it was an attempt of casual conversation or maybe just a compliment. its my opinion that people bitching about their casual emails being ignored are not sending them

(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 3:45:42 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

I must caution you that if you comment on a woman's physical appearance it is not likely to be perceived as neutral.

This. I read that opener and shuddered, cloudboy. That would be a block and delete if you'd sent it to me, no question.

Neutral is 'hey, I see you like [pastime]. I read that and thought [something relevant]'.

Comments about how strong someone looks are not neutral.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 5:43:51 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
This. I read that opener and shuddered, cloudboy. That would be a block and delete if you'd sent it to me, no question.

Neutral is 'hey, I see you like [pastime]. I read that and thought [something relevant]'.

Comments about how strong someone looks are not neutral.


Thing is, dude can reply, and rightly, that I put a picture of my well-muscled leg out there and therefore it more or less invites comment. I leg press well over 500 lbs for lots and lots of reps and sets, and can do a lot more on a 1RM, so yes I've built some decent gams. I wouldn't block and delete someone who commented respectfully on what I was showing.

Not all comments are respectful, and I *would* block and delete a wanker who expressed explicit sentiments about what he'd want me to do with my legs. But commenting on muscularity when I was obviously showing it off isn't really block or delete worthy.

But neither is it neutral. It does definitely cast the conversation firmly in the context of sexual assessment, and if that is not what you're actually aiming for, I would strongly recommend not commenting on a woman's physical attributes. If you really do want to have a casual conversation with a woman, *don't talk about her body*. Seriously. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with sending the conversation in a personal and sexual direction, just that you should be fully aware that this is what you are doing if you make any remark about her physical appearance.

If you actually wanted to talk about strength casually, sharing how much you bench press and what system of sets and reps and cycling and supplements, etc, you use and asking me the same would work better. If you don't lift yourself and aren't really into the technical details, then we probably can't have a casual conversation on the subject. If you try, it will basically devolve into your being some guy who is staring at my body while I work out. If you do want to put a sexual spin on things, that's totally understandable on an adult site, but it doesn't work for casual conversation.

_____________________________

Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 5:48:19 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

I leg press well over 500 lbs for lots and lots of reps and sets, and can do a lot more on a 1RM, so yes I've built some decent gams.

Nobody is questioning the quality of your pins, LNT

But...

quote:

It does definitely cast the conversation firmly in the context of sexual assessment

...and if someone is clearly aiming for neutral but *that's* what comes out, it's creepy afaic. Shows a lack of awareness of tone, or something. ym(clearly)mv.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to LadyNTrainer)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 8:01:34 PM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

I leg press well over 500 lbs for lots and lots of reps and sets, and can do a lot more on a 1RM, so yes I've built some decent gams.

Nobody is questioning the quality of your pins, LNT

But...

quote:

It does definitely cast the conversation firmly in the context of sexual assessment

...and if someone is clearly aiming for neutral but *that's* what comes out, it's creepy afaic. Shows a lack of awareness of tone, or something. ym(clearly)mv.

I read Cloudboy's example as well and shuddered a little.  In the same way that people who send me an initial email saying that my hair looks like it is the right length for grabbing tend to get a "um ok, thanks, wish you all the best" vs people who say something about the streaks or how I have written somewhere in my journal that I wish I could marry my hairdresser are likely to get a smiley face and a much lengthier reply from me.

I can't actually figure out what exactly about saying LnT has strong legs would ick me out as a first message, maybe if it had been written as wow you must work out a lot to get that muscle definition that would seem more neutral to me.


_____________________________

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King
Godmother of the subbie mafia
My all time favourite threads
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2002501
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=790885

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/25/2010 8:25:04 PM   
soul2share


Posts: 7084
Joined: 12/18/2007
From: somewhere out there.....
Status: offline 		I've sent out a few to folks whose profiles have caught my eye for one reason or another, just something along hte lines of "Nice profile".....if they write back, fine, if not, well, no biggie either.  I don't read profiles much, unless they have posted something interesting here and I'm curious. 

_____________________________

I have to stop saying "How stupid can you be?"...people are starting to take it as a challenge!

*Not a fuck was given.*

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 7:38:49 AM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wandersalone
I can't actually figure out what exactly about saying LnT has strong legs would ick me out as a first message, maybe if it had been written as wow you must work out a lot to get that muscle definition that would seem more neutral to me.


I can't figure it out either, but I feel it too. My best guess is that it is because a strange male is assessing me, making a comment about my body, when I don't know him or anything else about him, and it is the first thing he chooses to discuss with me out of the blue. It pretty much immediately sets the tone of "this conversation is focused on my physical body, and there is a strange male staring at my body". Whether or not the focus is explicitly sexual, and the man doing the commenting may not think it is, it tends to subjectively feel that way because of the context of "strange man looking at and commenting on my body".

This can be a positive or a negative depending on a) how you perceive the man in question and b) how you personally feel about being looked at and sexually assessed by men. For me that's generally a negative.

I'm also aware that from his point of view, he may well not realize that he is essentially being perceived as a masher. That may not be his intent at all, even if subjectively it is certain to feel that way when a strange man stares and comments on my body even in the most polite possible manner. So I try to cut them some slack if they're not being crude or explicit, and understand that if I choose to show it, it may well become a conversation starter.

_____________________________

Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

(in reply to wandersalone)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 1:28:51 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I read Cloudboy's example as well and shuddered a little. In the same way that people who send me an initial email saying that my hair looks like it is the right length for grabbing tend to get a "um ok, thanks, wish you all the best" vs people who say something about the streaks or how I have written somewhere in my journal that I wish I could marry my hairdresser are likely to get a smiley face and a much lengthier reply from me.

I can't actually figure out what exactly about saying LnT has strong legs would ick me out as a first message, maybe if it had been written as wow you must work out a lot to get that muscle definition that would seem more neutral to me.



Your response is indicative of how wary women are of PMs in cyberspace. I never considered that commenting on posted pictures might be "out of bounds" or inappropriate, but I agree that how one makes comments or observations is pretty telling.

From my end, if the recipient takes offense to what I have to say in an opening PM, then we're probably not suited as friends anyway.

quote:


I can't figure it out either, but I feel it too. My best guess is that it is because a strange male is assessing me, making a comment about my body, when I don't know him or anything else about him, and it is the first thing he chooses to discuss with me out of the blue.


Another view might be that you posted the picture, chose it carefully from the the 1000s of shots you might publish, and it caught the attention of someone. To characterize this as "out of the blue" confuses me -- when someone posts a profile picture -- the picture is going to generate a response b/c you posted it.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 11/26/2010 1:34:44 PM >

(in reply to wandersalone)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 1:34:12 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I never considered that commenting on posted pictures might be "out of bounds" or inappropriate

I think it's the physicality of it-you're not just commenting on a picture, you're commenting on her physique. You (generic) wouldn't consider that neutral conversation if a woman had her legs out but was just standing in the queue at a coffee shop or whatever-why does it become neutral if it's a picture of her rather than her physical body?

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 1:38:31 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
I 'm a little taken aback by the sensitivity here. Must say the feedback has been interesting.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 1:45:10 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I 'm a little taken aback by the sensitivity here. Must say the feedback has been interesting.

I don't think we're being oversensitive-I'd have blocked if I received that email because I'm opposed to first contacts that *aren't* neutral.

That doesn't make it a bad first email in general-just one that presses bad buttons for me personally-but I am in turn taken aback that you could possibly consider it neutral.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 1:51:04 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Most "neutral overture" type e-mails are kind of boring and don't leave much to respond to. If someone responds to a particular thing I write, or something they found engaging in my profile and starts a conversation about it, fantastic, whether or not they're also attracted to me. Usually they don't come across as "neutral"/bland/boring though, but intrigued or perhaps even passionate about the subject. I agree with LadyNT that comments about how strong someone is do come across as sexual or at least a bit D/s oriented ("I want you to exercise power over me").

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 5:01:47 PM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


I 'm a little taken aback by the sensitivity here. Must say the feedback has been interesting.

I think there is some difference between what you see as a neutral overture and what some others see as neutral hence what you are perceiving as sensitivity.

I have just looked at LnT's profile and if I wanted to send a neutral overture to her this is possibly what I would write -

I just read on your profile that you are a personal trainer.  At the gym I used to go to I always thought that the PT's looked like they were enjoying their work so much and I imagine that you would get a lot of satisfaction from knowing that you have helped people to achieve their goals.

No kink, no personal comments and I also haven't asked a direct question as I would not be writing it with the goal of receiving a response but instead have given LnT a couple of starting points to respond to if she chose to.

edited to add:
I am a profile junkie as my sig line indicates and I often send random notes like this to people and not only to people from the message boards and I probably get a response rate of 90% or more.  And this is me sending messages to doms, subs, attached, single, looking, not looking, gay, straight, tv...you get the drift.


< Message edited by wandersalone -- 11/26/2010 5:04:57 PM >

_____________________________

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. Martin Luther King
Godmother of the subbie mafia
My all time favourite threads
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2002501
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=790885

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 6:33:46 PM   
LadyNTrainer


Posts: 1584
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wandersalone
I think there is some difference between what you see as a neutral overture and what some others see as neutral hence what you are perceiving as sensitivity.

I have just looked at LnT's profile and if I wanted to send a neutral overture to her this is possibly what I would write -

I just read on your profile that you are a personal trainer.  At the gym I used to go to I always thought that the PT's looked like they were enjoying their work so much and I imagine that you would get a lot of satisfaction from knowing that you have helped people to achieve their goals.

No kink, no personal comments and I also haven't asked a direct question as I would not be writing it with the goal of receiving a response but instead have given LnT a couple of starting points to respond to if she chose to.

edited to add:
I am a profile junkie as my sig line indicates and I often send random notes like this to people and not only to people from the message boards and I probably get a response rate of 90% or more.  And this is me sending messages to doms, subs, attached, single, looking, not looking, gay, straight, tv...you get the drift.


Nail. Head. Hammer. Hit.

Note her 90% response rate. Some of that is due to her being female and thus regarded as less of a potential "masher" than a male, but some of it is simply that she actually does know how to start a conversation that really is neutral and not likely to be viewed with deep suspicion even when it is sent on an adult site. I would expect a man's percentages of courteous replies to be not all that substantially behind hers if he used the exact same wording.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 11/26/2010 6:34:31 PM >

_____________________________

Your dominant Personal Trainer for fitness and body shaping in the lifestyle. Let my fetish be your motivation.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 9:11:48 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
There are also people who think their mailbox is so private that other people should really not dare to sent them any unsolicited mail...

Yup.  Tough when you're trying to avoid a hijack.

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/26/2010 9:49:27 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
I never considered that commenting on posted pictures might be "out of bounds" or inappropriate

I think it's the physicality of it-you're not just commenting on a picture, you're commenting on her physique. You (generic) wouldn't consider that neutral conversation if a woman had her legs out but was just standing in the queue at a coffee shop or whatever-why does it become neutral if it's a picture of her rather than her physical body?

I'd be really surprised to find less than, oh, about 97% of first messages are physical comments.  The pic's out there, and the gams are rockin' (as acknowledged by LadyN).  I know that if I had a photo of myself in a really stylish corset, but shot it "looking down" at my sizable rack, almost all the comments would be about the tits.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/27/2010 12:39:22 AM   
DMFParadox


Posts: 1405
Joined: 9/11/2007
Status: offline 		I think I sent LnT a message many moons ago that went along the lines of, "Dominant fitness trainer? Cool idea!" ...No response back. But whatev; I wasn't really trying for one, I just thought it was a good idea and said so, then moved on. Neutral to me means no expectations.

Btw, this:
quote:

I leg press well over 500 lbs


Fuck me. 500 lbs? Maybe, one day far in the future, if I keep up my training like I have been I'll get close to that. But right now it feels like watching someone walk to the goddamned moon and send a postcard.


_____________________________

bloody hell, get me some aspirin and a whiskey straight

"The role of gender in society is the most complicated thing I’ve ever spent a lot of time learning about, and I’ve spent a lot of time learning about quantum mechanics." - Randall Munroe

(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/27/2010 1:53:16 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I'd be really surprised to find less than, oh, about 97% of first messages are physical comments. 

And how many first messages do you think I delete?

What most messages consist of is irrelevant, because most messages are spam with little relevance to the profile. This thread's about sending short messages that clearly come across as non-spam, and I don't think cloudboy's suggested message delivered that.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to thornhappy)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Neutral Overtures -- via CM PM - 11/27/2010 6:39:44 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline 		i dont understand waryness on here - what can happen??

if someone sends me a compliment i thank them, i figure its nice they took the time out to say something nice and or took the trouble to read my profile.  doesnt mean im going to meet up with them just because i write back to say thanks, most often those sort of encounters last a couple of emails and fizzle out anyway - distance, age, blah blah.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 80
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