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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 5:16:07 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Angel thanks for clarifying (especially on your cell!), but your original meaning was clear - I just didn't read it properly.

I think that the debate is boiling down to whether we view M/s as an absolute thing (therefore anything that isn't absolute M/s is - by definition - not M/s) or whether we view it as something that can be more nuanced.

I think in the context of the former definition, you're absolutely right - You can't claim to have an absolute M/s relationship if you don't trust your Master enough to give him absolute control. So the only point at which my perspective differs from yours is that I wouldn't challenge the validity of an M/s relationship that wasn't absolute in the sense that you describe. I think that "absolute" may be an ideal for people looking for an M/s dynamic, but I'd be loathe to say "If you're not in an absolute M/s dynamic, then it aint M/s".



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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 5:19:04 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		So tazzy in reading your response to daddysprop no answers are wrong but it's some kind of contest you are doing the math on and because there aren't enough in your mind people comment in a certain belief they somehow lose the contest and you are running around believing they are wrong and state who has commented quite well. While the rest of us are doin' it wrong.

Seems tome tazzy your need to control this thread is causing the issues. Not the posters in the thread who are simply discussing and commenting.

Angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 6:10:38 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

So the only point at which my perspective differs from yours is that I wouldn't challenge the validity of an M/s relationship that wasn't absolute in the sense that you describe. I think that "absolute" may be an ideal for people looking for an M/s dynamic, but I'd be loathe to say "If you're not in an absolute M/s dynamic, then it aint M/s".


Many are loathe to say that, Crazy, and i agree with you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 7:47:43 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		If people can't take having their definition in a discussion challenged then they shouldn't place their relationship up as an argument Ina discussion. My challenging what they are calling m/s shouldn't rock the foundation of their relationship. If it does then to me they have issues that surpass any comment that differs from their own beliefs on a message board.

I won't allow someone elses insecurities to hinder my own beliefs or my stating same. I never post with the presumption of what I say will alter anyone's life and how they choose tolive it. It's a discussion. My beliefs are simple that mine I amsecure in them

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 10:54:42 AM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		  The question is largely academic.  I can see where angel's coming from but I think there's a point she's missing.

Fundamental to the M/s dynamic is the concept of the slave as property.   I can't think of a single slave who denies the 'ownership' aspect (although some of you can and will argue that I need to get out more).  However there's no way this can function in our society for well-known legal and social reasons.

Which means that ultimately, angel's concept of 'absolute M/s' simply does not exist.  All M/s interactions within the constraints of our society are essentially D/s interactions with a more extreme degree of authority and an agreed, negotiated reduction in the conceptual rights of the slave.  And the critical word here is 'negotiated'.  Angel herself has specifically outlined a number of things she requires in a Master.  As such, she can only ever be a slave in the sense of what she'll continue to accept - on an ongoing basis - from her Master.

At no point do her human rights cease to exist, so the only concept of control is one which she allows - her society will always enable her ability to leave the dynamic when she chooses.  Only exquisitely wrought psychological domination can prevent this.

So essentially, even the M/s folks are roleplaying.  Because the concept of that 'absolute control' only applies when it's exerted in a way which is acceptable to the slave on an ongoing basis.  Trust is essential to the power exchange, but that trust is on the basis that the actions of the Master will be predictable within the acceptable limits of the slave.  So the whole discussion devolves into a D/s spectrum with the M/s folks at the extreme end of the control dynamic and probably the bedroom D/s folks at the opposite end.

So again, a rather pointless shades of grey discussion which is entirely driven by semantics and the various personal axes that people have to grind.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 11:14:39 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Actually it can and does exist and no i'm not miss anything. I don't agree with you assessment of m/s. I lived it I know what it was and it was solely based on mastery not legalities. This was hashed out in another recent thread. So nope I am not missing anything. You can feel you are roleplaying if that makes you comfortable and capable but dome of use live the m/s without the need of roleplaying and our lives fit well in society.

You would be wise not to try and psychanalyze what I will and won't do when held in mastery by a man capable of obtaining the absolute. You will be wrong. My expectations are of men. What they are capable of accomplishing once they take my autonomy is not something I analyze. Seriously don't open mouth and insert foot trying to explain what I say and do. My understanding and beliefs of m/s are not what most people want or could live within. And I admit this usually when giving my opinions.

Angel


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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 12:00:24 PM   
yellowroses


Posts: 167
Joined: 6/12/2009
Status: offline 		In O/our relationship I would have to say that my husband does not have total control or authority over everything. This is because he chooses not to in some situations. Most times I defer to his judgement and I do things how I know he would like them done.

I was married before and that marriage produced a child. I was widowed so there is no custody issue. She is now his step-child. He has been very careful not to assert his step-father role too strongly. I make the decisions when it comes to her for. I do the best to make those decisions based on how I know he would want me to. There have been times when I have made a judgement call that I know he wasn't completely happy with.

We are in the middle of the group as far as total control/no control goes. He is in total charge/control of the areas that he wants to be right now. Who knows that may change at some point. That will be his decision.

This is what works for U/us.

yellowroses

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 12:36:25 PM   
ownedbyPF


Posts: 126
Joined: 2/18/2010
Status: offline 		Angel~

i said the other day in a post that i frequently refrain from commenting on certain topics because I feel like daddysprop has already covered it. Same goes for you :) Sometimes I disagree with something you say, but generally it isn't the "what" you said, but more the "how" you said it. Since I believe intent is more important than presentation I don't comment because what the heck's the point of that? (Well, lol, apparently some people think there's a point in it.) Anyhow, generally I absolutely agree with both you and dp and I figure that if I were to post I would only be reiterating what you two have already said quite succinctly. :)

I'm commenting on this only because I want to thank you for clarifying the D/s vs M/s in a way that I can articulate in the future. I have always stumbled over getting past the "Yeah, but he doesn't make you do x, so you aren't a slave anymore than I am." There was a huge difference that I could never succinctly put into words! Now, I'm like duh! That was so frickin simple, where was your head?

To me (ha, let's not forget the great qualifier) In M/s, my Owner is free to control anything he wishes. If he chooses to give the reins to me in some area, then it is by his choice, and I clearly understand that at any moment he can equally choose to take them back. There isn't any area that he can not seize at any given moment. In D/s there are areas that are not his to control by the subs choosing vs his choosing. There are areas, and they may be slight, or they may be huge, but they aren't available for him to simply take at any given moment.

In other words the defining question is: Does he have the freedom to seize control of any area of your life at any given moment?

And for the record.. I agree with you, I couldn't be a slave to a Man that didn't have my confidence to do exactly that.

So, more qualifiers: My use of sexes in a given role are based only on my life, it isn't meant to exclude Dommes or male subs or anything else, I expect you to put your own pronoun in as needed :) Uh... oh, I'm not implying that the M/s is better or deeper or anything else than the D/s... they are different and to each his/her own and so on and so forth, blah blah, tax exempt in CA, refunds must be redeemed within 30 days, and this offer void were prohibited... In other words you silly folks who want to nitpick, I'm talking about my view alone, knock yourself out with your own :)
~s

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 1:49:38 PM   
dizzyblond21


Posts: 4
Joined: 10/25/2009
Status: offline 		I just like to control in the bedroom and want to be controlled in the bedroom, so what does that make me ? 

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 1:51:32 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		switch?  oh, gawd, is this multiple choice?

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 2:33:02 PM   
immoral


Posts: 99
Joined: 6/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dizzyblond21

I just like to control in the bedroom and want to be controlled in the bedroom, so what does that make me ? 
[/quote
it makes you YOU..... just like all the rest of us......an inrticate thing a mish mash of nature and nurture...it makes you individual unique and the only you there will ever be...the rest is really up to you to define....some days you are the windscreen.....some days you are the fly...

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 3:16:18 PM   
graceadieu


Posts: 1518
Joined: 3/20/2008
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Part of me wants to play devil's advocate here and ask how many things in our life any of us have absolute control over. ;)

But I know what you mean. There are some areas where I have a great degree of control (e.g., management of my medical condition). But even on those things, he has some authority and influence, even if he's hardly ever exerted it. So I wouldn't say I really have absolute control over anything.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 7:13:12 PM   
Awareness


Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline 		  You can't erase legalities from the interaction unless you proceed to live in a country without laws which protect you.  If that's the case, then you can indeed claim an absolute M/s scenario in which you had no options.

If that isn't the case, then you're talking cross-eyed badger sputum.  You can claim internal enslavement if you want, but that's merely the psychological domination I spoke about in my previous post.  Otherwise, you existed in a situation in which you always had a refuge.  If your master proved at any point to be dangerous, you always had the option of leaving.

Regardless of what you will do, your Master is not isolated from his society.  You have never been a slave in the absolute sense - your society has always provided you with options.  Your unwillingness to make use of those options is ultimately irrelevant.

Even more significantly, you've made it clear that your enslavement is a state which is dependent upon a number of attributes in your master.  Should he fail to exhibit those attributes at some point, then your enslavement falls away.  In other words, the mind-space that you call enslavement is induced by the character of your master.  As such, it's a response to his own state - and that's not absolute enslavement, it's a psychological and physiological response.

Even the Goreans teach their slaves that there's always a choice.  You can deny this all you want, but ultimately all you're doing is engaging in posturing in which you present yourself as the epitome of a slave with all others as mere pretenders.  Fool yourself all you like - I care not one whit.  However don't be so foolish as to think everyone is blind to what you're doing.  It's blatantly obvious to anyone skilled at reading human beings.  Pride is one thing - arrogance is quite another.

(in reply to barelynangel)
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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 8:27:58 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Lol. Awareness you have no clue of my life as a slave. But if you feel better posting you know about me, my life, and my slavery when you don't knows me from anyone, please do continue. Are you really bringing goreans into it -- what is that supposed to give you some credibity as to what my life? Seriously do continue lol.

This whole legality and choice crap was hashed out in another thread and I am not going to start it with you here. You don't have to agree with me. The difference between me and others is I don't need your approval or validation for what I lived. But it astounds me how personal you are trying to make this with me. I don't get it but please keep posting how you know about me, my life, and the slavery I lived lol. I willbe taking notes. Oh. And if you can throw more Gorean references to sound more credible please do. I'll be taking notes. You'd really I am sure impress people. There were many others who have said the same thing I have. Its really interesting how you seem focused only on me.

I have never said anyone was pretending. I think that was your line when you said all m/s was roleplaying. Please don't put words of your own beliefs into my mouth. Let's be clear. You called people practicing m/s role-players which is the same as saying they pretend. I never said anyone pretends. I said TO ME it's more of a D/s concept than m/s. That's simple my opinion based what I know and believe.

I think you are trying to hard and implying I have said things I haven't. Why I don't know. What are you insecure about awareness?

I stand by what I have said. I also am very consistent with my beliefs of slavery and m/s. If it makes you feel more comfortable to believe as you do. It's ok. However, it doesn't change the life I lived as a slave or my beliefs and understandings. But I do get you need to believe what you need to so your fears and uncomfortableness that some people actually do live as I and others have described are made less upsetting to you.

Angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/7/2010 8:31:32 PM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/7/2010 8:43:36 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu

Part of me wants to play devil's advocate here and ask how many things in our life any of us have absolute control over. ;)

But I know what you mean. There are some areas where I have a great degree of control (e.g., management of my medical condition). But even on those things, he has some authority and influence, even if he's hardly ever exerted it. So I wouldn't say I really have absolute control over anything.


Which is exactly where most of us fit in with our relationships. When i have problems with my son, i may turn to the man in my life for advice. The decision is mine. That doesnt mean he may not have any influence. Truth is, no one has absolute control over anything, even ourselves.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to graceadieu)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/8/2010 4:02:41 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Tazzy, from what I am reading of others and concepts I understand, I don't think what is being spoken of is about who makes the decision that people are questioning as being m/s as it's been made clear slaves DO make decisions. it's who determines it. What I seeing from others and what I know myself the concept of absolute control/authority which I think is used interchangeably are saying within their belief of m/s the slave realizes and accepts that when she is making the decisions she does so by his allowance and that he can remove her ability of same or change her decision. From what you are describing is what many of us are seeing as a d/s concept because you are saying that the man you call master does not have the control or authority in anyway in certain aspects of you life because you are the one who control HIS participation. What to me many of us are saying is in the M/s concept the MASTER controls the slaves participation.

That's all. I don't think our disagreement is going to have a detrimental effect on your or others life because I don't believe you think everyone agrees with what you define things in your life. Is it? Do you really need people to validate what you do in your life?

Angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/8/2010 4:03:35 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/8/2010 11:44:23 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Now that the thread has died down, i once again want to thank everyone for your responses. Its definitely been interesting!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/8/2010 5:01:44 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Tazzygirl:
This isnt meant to be a snark filled thread. Im just curious about the absoluteness of control.

I have gone down this line myself any number of times until I finally gave up. There is no way to compare "absoluteness of control" between relationships. I can name a lot of relationships here where the two people would say that the dominant was absolutely in control but yet lots of things are listed that make me say, "but wait...". For instance, the whole, "You can command me to obey, but you can't command me to agree with you" thing I hear ALL the time. For ME, I absolutely can and do include that within "absolute control" along with everything else THAT I CAN THINK OF. But the things that matter to me and Carol are not the same things that matter to you, him, her, or that other guy over there.

I can tell you that all the obvious things like "children", "career", etc. are all included. So is the entire range of sexual activities... including a whole bunch of things normally excluded flat out. So is her enduring whatever pain I chose to inflict... even though I'm not a sadist and she's not a masochist. So is the whole monogamous vs. poly thing. At least for everything that has ever occurred to us, I expect her to obey.. period.

The problem is always that "has occurred to us" qualifier. For the folks who go with the "monogamous vs. poly is hardwired" line of thinking, then it does not occur to them to command this. It's not in their expectation set that such a command ought to be given or that it would be obeyed. Therefor, the fact that it won't be obeyed still looks like absolute control to them. In the end, people take seriously that which is serious to them.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/8/2010 8:55:02 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you Jeff. Very well put.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/8/2010 9:34:26 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thank you Jeff. Very well put.
LOL - yeah... damnit. I just hate that I'm right because man that'd make for a fascinating conversation

And just for the record, it goes the other way too. Without getting crass, there is a fairly normal sex act that just grosses Carol out and isn't all that important to me. Accordingly, we don't do it. It would be easy to argue that my control over Carol is clearly not absolute since her sexual proclivity is eclipsing my desire in this case. I wouldn't argue with anyone who said that. The problem is I don't care... it's just not important to me. Because it's not important to me it doesn't impinge on my sense of total control. But to a ton of people on these boards it would be and my unwillingness to get my way in that would be a serious lack of dominance.

So there are some areas that I exert control over Carol that are over the top for a lot of folks here. Then there are other areas which are trivial and necessary to other folks but I don't control. Multiply that by about 4 bajillion possible areas of control and the complexity of this comparison begins to get clear *laughs*.

Finally, of course, is the real problem. Even if you COULD somehow produce a spreadsheet with the 4 bajillion areas of control neatly scored on a 1-10 scale by a panel of independent reviewers for 2000 relationships... so what? What would that tell you? In the end, it isn't how much control I have over Carol which makes us happy. It's that I have the right control for us. If I found out that I "only" control Carol 10% as much as the average "master".. so what? It certainly wouldn't change anything I do. I suppose it might make me stop using the term "master" but that'd be a semantic correction only.




_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 100
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