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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 5:17:54 AM   
Toppingfrmbottom


Posts: 6528
Joined: 6/7/2009
Status: offline 		Before I got into debt because I allowed my desires for items to over rule my logical head, I would of said finances. I am usually really good at budgeting and controlling my finances, I was so frugal I wouldn't litterally spend anything beyond bills,  and I pooh poohed the idea. my budget was so tight to anything not a bill and not needed like food,  it'd make a penny cry.I wouldn't allow someone to come in and take over my finances, because I was managing them wonderfully on my own . Now I admit for the last year or so I have been on a buy it an buy it all kick, so I could use some butt whooping in managing that, and I am usually very on time with paying things on time an stuff, an I didn't need no help there. I have, slipped horrible on that a few times in the last year, so I wouldn't go so far as saying any more I never need help on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For the submissive side... is there any part of your life you have absolute control over and will never relinquish regardless of what type of relationship you enter?




< Message edited by Toppingfrmbottom -- 12/5/2010 5:19:29 AM >

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 5:39:30 AM   
TheLadyEliza


Posts: 13
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		Art. I need my visual art in a whole and different way than I need sumission, but if anyone tried to make me choose, I am going with the art. The thing about the art is that it is core to my personality and I think that if it wasn't there, the submissiveness wouldn't be either. Hmmm, I think I just created a logic circle. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that if someone tried to control my art, they would be doing more than just telling me how things are going to go, they would be rejecting a vital part of me that I find necessary for survival. I wouldn't be able to deal with that.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 9:47:56 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For the submissive side... is there any part of your life you have absolute control over and will never relinquish regardless of what type of relationship you enter?




no. or as agirl aptly stated, "obviously not." however that certainly does not imply that i have no voice, that i have no independent thoughts, opinions, needs and desires. He doesn't need or want me to be a submissive mirror of himself. we have many different views and beliefs, and while it's important to him that i maintain an open mind again there is no desire on his part for me to be some kind of mindless puppet.

and while i have no control over any aspect of my life, i do have responsibilities. it is my responsibility to keep him informed about my health care needs for instance...when it's time for me to have check-ups, get prescriptions renewed, etc. with this information he will then do what he feels is best, and it's not my place to question his decisions. i will admit to not finding this easy at times in the past...for instance, the idea of whether or not i would ever have children. mind you, i've never wanted any. but somehow when the reality of the fact that he controls that too was slammed in my face, it was tough to process emotionally. but i am reminded of why i am here at all, why i chose this path in the first place. if maintaining control over any aspect of my life was so important to me, or even desirable, i certainly would not have chosen this.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 10:24:48 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		To me this is a hard question to answer because the concept of control is progressive but it also involves absolute trust. 

Its about trust and i would imagine in a Master/slave relationship there does come a time when that step of absolute trust must be taken to fully appreciate the dynamic.  If, to me, a woman doesn't trust a Man enough that she doesn't wish to have absolute trust in him with her most important aspects of her life, then why try and live in an M/s concept?

I don't believe slave can exist if she is determined to maintain control over her most important aspects of her life.  Why?  Because that step the religuishing of control is the step i think needs to expect and be taken to fully emerce yourself in his existance as your Master. 

I think many times there is a misunderstanding about the "absolute control"  People seem to indicate a negative concept when it comes to this because of fear.  I see when people are speaking of not giving up control, its based on fear that he will determine something for them that they don't want, no matter what it is.  To me, this is a trust issue.   Why be with a Man, call and indicate he is your "Master" when you don't trust him with the MOST IMPORTANT aspects of your life.  To me, it makes no sense.  He is -- to you -- your Master.  How can you not have absolute trust in him?

When i was a slave and he had absolute control over my life, i never worried his will would be something i couldn't deal with, or something negative to my well being or my happiness.  I didn't view him as someone who would want to hurt me or hinder me for his own gain.  While i did question him at times and discussed things with him and gave him insight, i never once worried after he had made the decision -- worrying was HIS responsibility.   But i will admit, we were together for a long time and it was a PROGRESSIVE process and didn't happen overnight.  I am just thankful he was a Man who was capable of taking the control when i fought him for it and he showed me that he was capable of my absolute trust. 

However, i will say this, with absolute trust also comes with consequences and is utterly agonizing when its no longer there.

I am not saying women shouldn't be with men they don't absolutely trust and who put conditions on the control the man has, i just wonder why call it M/s -- isn't it more of a D/s concept -- a contract of sorts?

As many know however, my understanding of M/s is a lot different from many.  Sp to me, in the end, if i can't have absolute confidence in him that he will eventually have absolute control over all aspects of me and my life especially those which i feel are the most important to me, I have to believe i will have the expectation of achieving absolute trust in him, or else i wouldn't call him my Master.

So for a Master -- no areas of my life would be off limits.   For a Dom or boyfriend yeah -- i would maintain control over certain aspects of my life, but then, they wouldn't be having absolute control over my life as they wouldn't own me or have the goal of absolute mastery over me.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/5/2010 10:31:54 AM >

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 11:27:04 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		angel,

I think this is a really powerful post, both in terms of its description of your past relationship, and the point you make about progression.

The only point I differ with is your very narrow (but very clear..) definition of M/s. I think that there can be degrees of M/s, without any degree being more or less "right" than the other. As you say yourself you describe, and aspire to, an absolute state of M/s that may be an ideal for some, but is unlikely to be for others.

My point is that I don't think it's necessarily fair to view non-absolute M/s relationships as "lacking" - as long as they are rewarding for the people in them. One person's ideal may be more absolute, and frankly I envy the intensity of trust you had in the relationship you describe, even if I personally wouldn't want that degree of M/s (and personally wouldn't describe any of my relationships as M/s).

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 11:28:54 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		daddysprop247,

Every time I read your posts I'm challenged a little, and learn a little more. You and angel have really caused me to think about the nature of M/s and I'm really glad of it.

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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/5/2010 1:42:25 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

For the submissive side... is there any part of your life you have absolute control over and will never relinquish regardless of what type of relationship you enter?


I have and will always have control to choose how I will respond. 

As for the responsibility to manage and make decisions that affect my life, there are very few areas that do not intersect with or affect Firm's life, as well.  I honestly cannot think of any part that we do not collaborate on.  He does leave the ultimate decision up to me in quite a few areas, but they are not areas that I refuse to relinquish.  They are simply areas where I have more interest or a better skills set.

I will add that I don't consider my control in these areas to be "absolute".  I wouldn't consider Firm's control to be "absolute", either.  We are first and foremost a partnership.  It may not be perfectly equal in all things, but to stay healthy and keep us both happy, it requires active participation and cooperation from both of us.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 12:50:51 AM   
TheLadyEliza


Posts: 13
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLadyEliza

Art. I need my visual art in a whole and different way than I need sumission, but if anyone tried to make me choose, I am going with the art. The thing about the art is that it is core to my personality and I think that if it wasn't there, the submissiveness wouldn't be either. Hmmm, I think I just created a logic circle. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that if someone tried to control my art, they would be doing more than just telling me how things are going to go, they would be rejecting a vital part of me that I find necessary for survival. I wouldn't be able to deal with that.


After reading a few posts that came after mine I now feel bad about saying this. I now feel slightly ashamed that I didn't consider that a master should have The Most Important parts of your life, but yeah I can see that point. I would edit my original post, but I cant figure out how, so I will just go for a retraction and better explination instead.

I can't give my art over to anybody else because it is not possible. I am not a conceptual artist, one that plans and thinks and knows. I am a making artist, one that feels and does and goes with it. Anything I actually plan generally turns out fairly crappy, because when I am not running on pure instinct, I have no feel for design whatsoever. I cannot listen to what other people want then make it, because that isn't how I make things. I stuff it up, because I planned it too much.

Perhaps what I am talking about here is the difference between what you can give to people, the things within your control to cede, and the things out of your control that you can't give no matter what. For example, you can cede your medical decisions to someone else but you can't always give them good health because of it.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 5:44:15 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
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Status: offline
[quoteMy point is that I don't think it's necessarily fair to view non-absolute M/s relationships as "lacking" - as long as they are rewarding for the people in them. One person's ideal may be more absolute, and frankly I envy the intensity of trust you had in the relationship you describe, even if I personally wouldn't want that degree of M/s (and personally wouldn't describe any of my relationships as M/s).
[/quote]

I agree that it is not necessarily fair to view non-absolute M/s relationships as lacking.... I just see them as D/s relationships... relationships with limited authority imposed by the S-type onto the D-type. You can call it anything you want... but it is what it is.

It is important to appreciate that M/s relationships strive and often have a total authority transfer. But, I been around long enough to know that such a state is more a journey that it is a destination. Meaning that every now and again, one comes to places where the transfer is not complete and the relationship might put in alittle overtime in these situations.... but their is never any doubt where the authority belongs. Many of these bumps in the road are discovered accidently and are the result of a lack of awareness rather than wilful intent.

I would also comment that having complete authority over an S-type doesn't not denote that the D-type can do anything with the S-type. The S-type does have limitations that are imposed by the very nature of who the person is. TheLadyEliza gives an example of how her artistic nature works. This is indeed an example of something that is by the persons nature rather than imposed by the person themself. Of course, you can try and use the hammer to screw in the screw... but I don't thing the results will be as satisfactory if you just used a screw driver.

Authority or control being exercised will be temper by the nature of the tool one is using.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 10:05:48 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And here we come to the crux of the situation. I see Dominants saying they either would not want absolute control, or they realize limitations can be placed upon that control depending on the area.

I see the other side of the kneel saying they would retain control over nothing, give it all up if asked.

Control over my child i cannot give up. Its not a role i can abdicate to anyone else. I took on that responsibility freely. Its not something i would walk away from easily. Its extremely true that relationships are built upon trust. Even a biological parent can lose that trust. Biology does not make a parent, nor does it ensure that responsibility will be well taken care of. In regards to my child, its not something i "wanted" to withhold, but something i "needed" to withhold.

Concerning my career, again, this isnt an area i can just willy-nilly give up control over. Again, there are many who rely upon a nurse to maintain a certain amount of autonomy and responsibility. Its been a blessing that the men i have chosen over the years have all understood that requirement and not attempted to interfer. lol just had a vision of calling one man in particulr at 2 am and asking him if i should do such and such because a patient was exhibiting such and such. lol would never be a conversation i would have dreamed of entering into with that man!

The point of this thread was to see if any Dominant would actually state they had control over all areas of a sub/slaves life. I have yet to see that. Among the subs/slaves, i have seen the desire expressed, but, yet again, not seen the actuality expressed.

Its been an interesting exchange of thought. Thank you all.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 10:39:36 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		The problem I see is people don't get what having control means over a slave many people take it to the extreme thought that she doesn't ever make a decision and that simply isn't true. A
Man can have absolute control over a slave and yet still ALLOW her the decision ability necessay to achieve success. All the absolute control means to me is the ultimate decision is his. For example, when I was a slave I at times was called at 3 am to do something for my job. Now the absolute control concept was not whether or not I could go at the exact time I was needed but the absolute control was when he allowed me to maintain the job that required me to go in at 3 am or having cops pick me up to do something at work or the overtime etc. His was secure in his mastery of me that his absolute control wasn't micromanaging me in things he wasn't a part of - my job but he knew that his control extended over my job in whether or not I would be allowed to do the job. If it interfered with what he wished from me or hindered me accomplishing what he wanted. His absolute control would be I would not be allowed to work that particular job anymore. I had to have absolute trust that his decision if he took away my privilege to work at that job wasn't in bad faith but that he since he allowed me to work would have made an informed decision for the benefit of himself and those who existed in his life. That was his absolute control it wasn't that he micromanaged me but that he made that ultimate decisions.

Again I think too many people don't fully understand the concept of absolute control but see it as an extreme of micromanaging.

I personally don't get the kid thing. I had a step father and he and my mom made decisions for us. And to me again it's not about micromanaging what you do with the kid but how your decision fits in with his decision of the whole.

Angel


_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 10:48:30 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl



The point of this thread was to see if any Dominant would actually state they had control over all areas of a sub/slaves life. I have yet to see that. Among the subs/slaves, i have seen the desire expressed, but, yet again, not seen the actuality expressed.




that's not actually true tazzy. several slaves have posted not about a "desire" to have their lives completely controlled, but the day to day reality of it. my point was that even with absolute control, a slave still has responsibilities. but those responsibilities do not indicate any authority or control.

more subs/slaves tend to post than Dominants, that's just the way it tends to be online. my Master hates message boards actually, he doesn't have the temperament for all the back and forth. He's more of a blogger...putting his uncensored, uninterrupted ideas out there for you to like or not, agree with or not, he doesn't really care, lol.



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RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 10:54:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		And many would disagree with your definition, angel. Some would insist its more extreme. Others would insist its not as extreme as you portray it. Honestly, its all subjective to the individuals involved. Which is why i didnt want this thread to turn into a "your wrong because... " kind of thread.

There are no wrong answers. There is only what is right or wrong for your relationship. I appreciated your post when you spoke of your own situation. It actually impressed me. I also disgree with your posts when you interject your beliefs into other relationships. I feel this topic was a perfect example of what i had hoped to see, for the most part. People simply speaking about their own relationships without casting judgement upon others. Even LP's post ( i believe it was LP who spoke about wanting more control... if im in error, i appologize to her and the poster who actually made it) was about her own desires. I wanted an open dialogue, and i saw it in spades.

Again, i appreciate everyone who posted, regardless of what was said.

To me, an M/s relationship can be as varied as a D/s one. Its all up to the people within that dynamic to define what it is. I have been in relationships where the M/s relationship was acutely felt within the home.. outisde of it, is was more D/s.

Long live the differences.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 11:08:12 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Im not sure you understood what i was saying. I went back and counted. 11 posts, at least, shows me my saying...

quote:

Among the subs/slaves, i have seen the desire expressed, but, yet again, not seen the actuality expressed.


... is accurate.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 11:22:34 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		If there are no wrong answers shy are you telling me my answer is wrong? Your policing of this thread is very biased tazzy. For you seem to be telling me and others our answers are wrong.

Make up our mind tazzy. Are all answers acceptable or only the ones you choose and the rest you police?

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 11:32:19 AM   
mbes


Posts: 465
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline 		I find the whole concept of control and who has it fascinating. It's taken me a long time to get my head around having it, not having it, and where it ultimately lies.
For instance, I "have control" of dinner time. I decide what we are having, I buy the food, I prepare it. I serve it at the time of my choosing, taking everyone's schedules into account. Does this mean that I have ithe contol ultimately? Nope, it means that he just doesn't care that much on a day-to-day basis. He is free to override my decisions at any step in the process. If he decides that dinner will be meatloaf served at 8, I am not free to decide to override his decision; meatloaf at 8 it is. Therefore, he has control, just chooses not to exercise it in this area.
This difference between having the control and exercising it is at times uncomfortable for me. I like him having the control, although I admit that there are areas that are harder than others; some, I really want to hang onto. But I'm coming to accept the fact that so long as he has ultimate authority, and is in the position of being able to command as he wishes and not as I wish, he does have it.
I can be a slow learner at times.

< Message edited by mbes -- 12/6/2010 11:33:24 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 11:57:17 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

If there are no wrong answers shy are you telling me my answer is wrong? Your policing of this thread is very biased tazzy. For you seem to be telling me and others our answers are wrong.

Make up our mind tazzy. Are all answers acceptable or only the ones you choose and the rest you police?


I drew my own conclusions based upon the varied posts.

However, i never told you your answers, or anyone elses, were wrong. The only thing i disagreed with was your disagreement with others and their responses. You come across as extremely judgemental. As i stated in the OP, that was not to be the focus of this thread, nor did i allow it to become so.

Now, if that is me telling you you were wrong and policing you... then you have to own that as well.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 12:05:51 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		So you are lying when you claim no wrong answers. Only YOUR opinion counts and you are policing the thread trying to determine who isn't fitting the responses and styles YOU think are correct. I don't care what you think of my posting style it's not your business how I post nor should you be policing people as to their answers and yes tazzy you are policing not only me but others whose opinions are a lot like mine. So you may want to back off and stop trying to police people and then preach no answer is wrong. Everyone disagrees and you don't get to determines who disagreement is ok as I see YOUR disagreement is ok snd then tell me and others we can't disagree or our disagreement is not tazzy approved.

So which is it tazzy? No answers are wrong or somehow you are putting conditions applied to only some people and it seems to be people you disagree with?

Angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 12:15:45 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Im not sure you understood what i was saying. I went back and counted. 11 posts, at least, shows me my saying...

quote:

Among the subs/slaves, i have seen the desire expressed, but, yet again, not seen the actuality expressed.


... is accurate.


no, that is not accurate. just doing a quick scan over the thread, myself, agirl and littlewonder have all expressed the "actuality" of having every aspect of our lives under the complete control of our Masters. besides being inaccurate, i also found that comment of yours rather condescending, though more than likely that was not your intent. sort of like saying, "well i see plenty of you subs/slaves desire a Dominant to take complete control, but the reality is it just doesn't happen." unless i've misread you entirely, that seems to be the gist of what you are saying and re-iterating, with your repost above.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Another thread about control.. and anyone can reply! - 12/6/2010 12:35:34 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Mbes. I see it as you do but perhaps define what you do differently and to me the only perception of his control varies. While it seems his control is not there when you are making determinations. He still has absolute control even when you are making the decisions he allows you to make. The fact to me that he allows you gommske the decision and he has veto power to me indicates his control is absolute only the perception may be what creates the illusion of your having control.

I see many people utilize the illusion the perception makes and easily use the illusion as the truth of the situation.

Angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 60
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