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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 10:47:47 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

You are really good at telling people to shut up and learn some history, but, to be honest, a bit rubbish when it comes to your own grip on the subject.

Really? Why don't you get busy explaining the historical reasons the US supports Israel? One simple proper noun will do.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 1:01:32 PM

hertz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Really? Why don't you get busy explaining the historical reasons the US supports Israel? One simple proper noun will do.

You appear to have an answer in mind already. I don't care to play 20 questions with you.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 1:16:58 PM

DomKen

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So you don't know but choose to hypocritically criticize a position you don't understand. How utterly unsurprising.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 1:33:00 PM

hertz

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Meanwhile, back on topic...

quote:

Israel fights recognition of Palestinian state

Foreign Ministry fears if Mexico joins three Latin American states which have already recognized state within 1967 borders, 'wave' will be hard to stop

An increasing number of ambassadors and representatives of Latin American states have been walking the corridors of the Foreign Ministry in recent weeks. One after the other, like a red wave, they have come to meet with senior figures and diplomats....

While Israel acts to stop the "red wave" of recognition of a Palestinian state, the "other side" continues its efforts to garner support on other continents. There have been reports recently that the EU is considering Germany's proposal to recognize a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders. Following Foreign Ministry efforts, this proposal was moderated at the last minute to "recognition of Palestine when the time comes" – and even this proposal was eventually rejected.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4002381,00.html

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/22/2010 10:31:31 PM

tweakabelle

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Looks like the UK realises which way the wind is blowing .....

British move on Palestine
December 23, 2010
GAZA CITY: Britain is preparing to confer diplomatic status on the Palestinian delegation in London for the first time, renewing fears in Israel that Europe is moving closer to recognising an independent Palestinian state.

The Foreign Office confirmed it was studying a proposal that would see Palestinian ''general delegations'' upgraded to ''diplomatic missions'' in a number of European capitals.

Coming just weeks after the collapse of direct peace negotiations, following Israel's refusal to halt the construction of settlements in the West Bank, the move was denounced by the Israeli government.

Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, said: ''This will certainly not encourage the Palestinians to return to direct talks.''

The change of status is largely symbolic, but Israel has started a lobbying campaign against it.

Meanwhile, the Palestinian leadership has stepped up its efforts to win European recognition for a state on land occupied by Israel in 1967.

The Foreign Office said the upgrade did not ''imply recognition of a Palestinian state''.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/british-move-on-palestine-20101222-195la.html

Palestinian recognition by the UK would have profound implications I suspect, as the UK is the US's closest ally and a fellow-NATO founder-member. Though it seems to be happening here as part of a EU-wide development.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/23/2010 1:19:16 PM

hertz

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quote:

Yigal Palmor, a spokesman for the Foreign Ministry, said: ''This will certainly not encourage the Palestinians to return to direct talks.''

The irony of this statement is almost unbearable.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/24/2010 11:19:29 PM

tweakabelle

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Isn't it breath-taking in its arrogance!

As an approach to meaningful peace talks, it sure beats the standard Israeli strategy, which consists of assassinations, military incursions, artillery and/or aerial bombardment, a few killings here and there, holding c10,000 hostages/prisoners/'terrorists' while all the time openly thieving Palestinian land. All neatly summed up in the well-known Israeli political maxim of:
"Talk peace and kick the Arabs"

The more recognition that Palestine gathers, the less control Israel will be able to exert on the final outcome. Israel might even realise that peace demands meaningful concessions on both sides. These can only be thought of as positive steps that bring peace closer.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/26/2010 11:18:12 PM

luckydawg

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and the fact remains that anti Semites like tweak and hertz, lie and refuse to acknowledge that Isreal has pulled its millitary out of numerous areas Southern Lebanon, Golan, Sainai, most of west bank, and Gaza, and everyone of those areas has been used as bases to launch attacks on Isreali Civilians. as bases of War.

They need to lie and pretend Israel has made no conncessions.

they can't argue or spin the fact, they simply ignore. Like the intellectual cowards they are.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/27/2010 12:06:24 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

[The only advantages the US gets that I can see are:
*the US gets a proxy army to advance it's interests in the Middle East;

Voila

I'm so glad we have finally found something we can both agree upon.

Of course, agreeing that the IDF is a proxy army for outside interests puts Israel in the same category as Hamas and Hezbollah, who are often said to be proxy armies for Iranian interests.

Though, when one considers the lengthy downside to US support for its Israeli proxy, one really has to ask: "Is it worth it?". The US pays a considerable price in dollars, material support and the blood of US military personnel.

American policy on Palestine also generates considerable scorn and hostility throughout the world, thereby retarding US interests. It makes a mockery of US's commitment to promoting human rights. It is possibly the worst ad for democracy imaginable. It perpetuates instability and violence in the region and rewards the region's most aggressive belligerent State. These are just a few of the indirect costs of US support for this terrorist State.

That's an awful lot of pain for little or no visible gain. Again: Is it worth it?

Or is it one of the dumbest strategic mistakes of all time?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/27/2010 1:23:22 AM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/27/2010 12:25:12 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

.

Of course, agreeing that the IDF is a proxy army for outside interests puts Israel in the same category as Hamas and Hezbollah, who are often said to be proxy armies for Iranian interests.

Thats where you go wrong. Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, the IDF acts in defense and retaliation.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/28/2010 1:30:27 PM

hertz

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quote:

Ecuador formally recognized Palestine as an independent state on Friday, following the lead of its neighbors Bolivia, Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay earlier this month.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4004103,00.html

Israel is apparently getting its racist knickers in quite a twist over this, and is begging the leaders of Chile and Mexico not to follow suit. I've read that the countries most likely to formally recognise Palestine next are thought to be Peru and Nicaragua.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/28/2010 2:37:45 PM

willbeurdaddy

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You do realize that unless and until Israel recognizes Palestine and vice versa that none of this means jack shit, right?

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/29/2010 1:45:35 PM

hertz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You do realize that unless and until Israel recognizes Palestine and vice versa that none of this means jack shit, right?

There's no doubt that what you are saying has an element of truth in it. But it is also true that when the whole world recognises Palestine, then Israel might finally start to get serious about pursuing peace. Even a rogue terror-state with undeclared nuclear weapons needs the legitimacy of its cause to be recognised if it is to survive. And the continuing occupation of the lands of another nation does little to further that legitimacy.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/29/2010 3:34:36 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You do realize that unless and until Israel recognizes Palestine and vice versa that none of this means jack shit, right?

But it is also true that when the whole world recognises Palestine, then Israel might finally start to get serious about pursuing peace.

They have been serious. Its the Palestinians who have violated every attempt at it. I repeat, until Palestine recognizes Israel nothing will change. And they have sworn never to do that. Until they change there is no chance.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 2:05:35 PM

hertz

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quote:

They have been serious. Its the Palestinians who have violated every attempt at it. I repeat, until Palestine recognizes Israel nothing will change. And they have sworn never to do that. Until they change there is no chance.

We can agree to differ on this.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 2:08:06 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

They have been serious. Its the Palestinians who have violated every attempt at it. I repeat, until Palestine recognizes Israel nothing will change. And they have sworn never to do that. Until they change there is no chance.

We can agree to differ on this.

Are you denying that the Palestinians have never honored even one the agreements?

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 3:01:31 PM

hertz

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I am denying that Israel has.

And I am denying that I am denying that the Palestinians have never honored even one of the agreements. I think. There's a tricky double-negative in your post which makes it hard for me to be sure what I have just said.

< Message edited by hertz -- 12/30/2010 3:05:02 PM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 3:13:04 PM

hertz

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quote:

The United Nations will be formally requested next month for recognition of an independent Palestine state in the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 war, a senior Palestinian official announced on Wednesday.Palestinians will submit a proposal to the U.N. Security Council in this regard by early January, Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat told reporters in the West Bank town of Jericho."We wait for Bosnia to take the presidency of the Security Council," he said and expressed the hope that the United States would not veto the proposal, and countries like Japan, Korea, New Zealand and Australia would recognize the Palestine state.
http://www.rttnews.com/Content/GeneralNews.aspx?Id=1515952&SM=1

My guess is that the US will veto the motion because that's what they do. But I am not convinced this news story is all it appears.

quote:

THE Palestinian leadership is close to finalising a draft UN resolution condemning Jewish settlements The move was seen as the first step to recognition of independence by the world body, officials said.As Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority, sets off this week for Brazil, the Palestinians hope for a resolution that will condemn West Bank settlements, home to 300,000 Israelis, and another 200,000 living in East Jerusalem.Brazil has led a number of Latin American countries to recognise the Palestinian state on borders that existed before the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/un-resolution-a-first-step-towards-palestinian-independence/story-e6frg6so-1225978971532

The story in the Australian is somewhat different. Interesting report, though.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 3:16:58 PM

tweakabelle

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Israel is serious about peace talks? Not even the Israelis pretend that anymore!

You can tell how serious someone is about things by their choices and actions. Recently Israel had a choice of peace talks or continuing building in the West Bank. Israel as we all know, chose continuing to build/colonise and scuttled the peace talks.

Israel first committed to cease expanding its colonies/settlements in the West Bank in 2001 (from memory). It's 2010 position is that it is refusing to cease construction altogether. In terms of a peace process, Israel is going backwards.

Spin it anyway you like, Israel wants the West Bank more than it wants peace.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 5:30:01 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

I am denying that Israel has.

The withdrawals from Gaza and most of the West Bank were in those agreements. Therefore you are wrong

quote:

And I am denying that I am denying that the Palestinians have never honored even one of the agreements. I think. There's a tricky double-negative in your post which makes it hard for me to be sure what I have just said.

The first requirement of both Oslo and Dayton was that the palestinian organizations remove language calling for the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews from their charters. It wasn't done either time.

So you're wrong again.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/30/2010 5:34:55 PM >

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