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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 4:52:25 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		States which now recognise Palestine...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palestine-recognition-map.png


< Message edited by hertz -- 12/18/2010 4:55:39 AM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 6:16:46 AM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		because wishing always changes facts on the ground.

The only way the arabs get all of the West Bank is if someone militarily imposes those borders, which is never going to happen. The best the arabs can get, and the deal they've been offered at least twice (Oslo and Dayton) is Gaza and the West Bank minus Jerusalem and suburbs. Strangely the arabs failed to live up to those agreements and returned to violence.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 7:58:56 AM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

because wishing always changes facts on the ground.

The only way the arabs get all of the West Bank is if someone militarily imposes those borders, which is never going to happen. The best the arabs can get, and the deal they've been offered at least twice (Oslo and Dayton) is Gaza and the West Bank minus Jerusalem and suburbs. Strangely the arabs failed to live up to those agreements and returned to violence.


Those 'facts on the ground' are exactly why we are still having this conversation. Israel has been busy creating 'facts on the ground' for the past 40 years instead of seeking peace. Israel has been busy driving people off of their land instead of trying to live alongside them. I think you might find that Israel needs more than simple military muscle to continue to build Apartheid in the Middle East. It needs trading partners and world recognition of the justice of its cause as well. Unfortunately, it is pissing it all away.

Interestingly, when one looks at who recognises Palestine it is only really North America and most of Europe standing in the way of progress. Given that according to some, Europe is full of anti-Semites, it may not be long before the only nation willing to stand up and defend Israeli Apartheid will be the US.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 8:04:10 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I'm still waiting for anyone to present a single thing mandated by a peace agreement the palestinians have actually done. The fact is Israel gave up land and gave limited self rule to the palestinians and they got nothing, not even symbolic stuff, in return.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 8:29:33 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Israel has not 'given up land'. And it has not given 'limited self rule' to the Palestinians.

Israel has blockaded Gaza, occupied the West Bank, Set out on a campaign of ethnic cleansing in the West Bank and Jerusalem, launched military attacks on Palestinian civilians and ignored over 100 UN resolutions calling on it to cease violations of agreements and breaches in international law. No doubt, if it wasn't for the US vetoing so many resolutions critical of Israeli foreign policy, thereby turning the UN into a mockery, Israel would also be seen to be guilty of breaching the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of civilians.

Israel is a stain on the face of humanity.

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 9:54:02 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		It hasn't? Who's the Israeli mayor of Gaza City? How about the Israeli mayor of Nablus?

The fact is the Israelis want peace and have made concessions to get it. All they've ever gotten in return is violence.

BTW the reason Gaza is blockaded is because the PA lost control of Gaza to a terror organization.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1633072,00.html

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 10:46:49 AM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Hertz simply lies and ignores Sianai, Southern Lebanon, and the Golan Heights. I have asked for comments on them several times. Like all Anti Semites he simply ignores that which he can't explain away.

All given back by Israel.

And all used as bases for war after they gave it back.

Which is of course what Haters like Hertz want.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 1:17:28 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It hasn't? Who's the Israeli mayor of Gaza City? How about the Israeli mayor of Nablus?


Why would either place have Israeli mayors? Neither place is in Israel, nor ever have been. What's your point, exactly?

quote:

The fact is the Israelis want peace and have made concessions to get it. All they've ever gotten in return is violence.


If Israel wanted peace, they would have stopped building settlements on land that does not belong to them. They have made no concessions.

quote:

BTW the reason Gaza is blockaded is because the PA lost control of Gaza to a terror organization.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1633072,00.html



The reason Gaza is blockaded is because Israel, after pushing for a democratic election, didn't like the result of that election. The reason Gaza is blockaded is because Israel didn't actually withdraw at all - it just went through the motions.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 2:55:42 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

It hasn't? Who's the Israeli mayor of Gaza City? How about the Israeli mayor of Nablus?


Why would either place have Israeli mayors? Neither place is in Israel, nor ever have been. What's your point, exactly?

If Israel has not ceded land to the arabs then Israel still rules Gaza City and Nablus so what is the name of the mayors?

quote:

quote:

The fact is the Israelis want peace and have made concessions to get it. All they've ever gotten in return is violence.


If Israel wanted peace, they would have stopped building settlements on land that does not belong to them. They have made no concessions.

Maybe you don't understand the facts of history. Israel is never giving up control of Jerusalem. Beyond that they have made many concessions. See the above withdrawal from Gaza and most of the West Bank.

quote:

quote:

BTW the reason Gaza is blockaded is because the PA lost control of Gaza to a terror organization.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1633072,00.html



The reason Gaza is blockaded is because Israel, after pushing for a democratic election, didn't like the result of that election. The reason Gaza is blockaded is because Israel didn't actually withdraw at all - it just went through the motions.


You need to study history. Gaza was not blockaded when the PA controlled it. Gaza was blockaded when Hamas violently overthrew the legal authority in Gaza. Hamas is a violent terrorist organization. Israel has no agreements with Hamas, and Hamas refuses to negotiate with Israel so Israel is under no obligation at all in regards to a region technically in a state of rebellion against its lawful authority.

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 3:18:15 PM   
hertz


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quote:

If Israel has not ceded land to the arabs then Israel still rules Gaza City and Nablus so what is the name of the mayors?


Gaza and Nablus are not in Israel. How can Israel cede land that is not in Israel?

quote:

Maybe you don't understand the facts of history. Israel is never giving up control of Jerusalem. Beyond that they have made many concessions. See the above withdrawal from Gaza and most of the West Bank.


We've been here before. The last time you said something like this it turned out you had no idea who was a member of NAM and who wasn't. No-one accepts Israel's position on Jerusalem. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Israel does not voluntarily stick to the UN proposal on Jerusalem. As I have said on many occasions, Israel is not interested in peace, or in a free Palestine.

quote:

You need to study history. Gaza was not blockaded when the PA controlled it. Gaza was blockaded when Hamas violently overthrew the legal authority in Gaza. Hamas is a violent terrorist organization. Israel has no agreements with Hamas, and Hamas refuses to negotiate with Israel so Israel is under no obligation at all in regards to a region technically in a state of rebellion against its lawful authority.


You need to get a life. This is probably the 4th or 5th time you have suggested a version of history which bears no resemblance to reality whatsoever. Hamas was democratically elected, winning 76 of the 132 seats in the Palestinian parliament. Israel doesn't like democracy. Especially when it leads to results they do not approve of. Once again, you have resorted to fantasy to make some sort of point.



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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 4:06:53 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Gaza and Nablus are part of Israel. They became part of Israel in 1967. To claim otherwise is to ignore facts of history.

Israel did cede control of gaza and most of the west bank to the PA, not Hamas. Even though Hamas did win a parliamentary election they still violently revolted against the PA and did overthrow the legal authority in Gaza. The PA is the legal authority in Gaza and the West Bank. Hamas ran for the PA parliament as a political party. When they kicked the PA out of Gaza they did it militarily not politically. Technically and legally Gaza is in a state of rebellion and Israel is perfectly within its rights to blockade Gaza. Note that the same blockade does not apply to the West Bank.

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/18/2010 8:23:05 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Interestingly, when one looks at who recognises Palestine it is only really North America and most of Europe standing in the way of progress. Given that according to some, Europe is full of anti-Semites, it may not be long before the only nation willing to stand up and defend Israeli Apartheid will be the US.


Please excuse my being a tad pedantic but it's not "most of Europe standing in the way of progress", but a minority of mainly Western European countries. And it's far from certain that this will remain the case for much longer.

The European Union has already threatened to recognise Palestine unless Israel's colonisation of the West Bank ceases (see my post #139 for supporting link). As Israel has already rejected a massive bribe form Obama to cease colonising temporarily, and the numbers in the Israeli Govt stack up on the pro-colonisation side, it is unlikely that the colonisation will cease in the immediate future, leaving the EU with no choice but to carry out it's threat to recognise Palestine.

And the first cracks are appearing in the monolith of US support for Israel with the emergence of J Street as an alternative Jewish voice to AIPAC. As time goes by more and more Americans are going to ask the questions: "What exactly are we getting out of our alliance with Israel?" To which there is only one answer: "The US is getting ripped off on a monumental scale". Americans will do the numbers and realise that the cost of carrying Israel is far more than it's worth.

Israel, if it is thinking strategically, will realise that it will never be in a stronger position to negotiate the terms of a peace settlement than it is currently. If it doesn't, it's going to end up losing the peace. As the ex-Zionist UK politician Kaufman put it: "Netanyahu's lack of a peace policy will become a suicide note".

In the meantime, Israel will continue becoming the North Korea of the Middle East - belligerent, isolated, drunk on its own power and delusions of grandeur, an embarrassment to its few friends and loathed by most if not all of the rest of the world.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/18/2010 8:28:33 PM >

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/19/2010 2:16:28 AM   
hertz


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quote:

Please excuse my being a tad pedantic but it's not "most of Europe standing in the way of progress", but a minority of mainly Western European countries. And it's far from certain that this will remain the case for much longer.


Correct, of course.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/20/2010 1:44:44 PM   
hertz


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Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

Israel asks its embassies to thwart PA unilateralism
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH AND TOVAH LAZAROFF
12/20/2010 23:22

Foreign Ministry asks its diplomats to prevent Palestinian moves seeking recognition; tensions mount between Fayyad and PA over statehood.
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=200323


quote:

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior PLO official and close advisor to PA President Mahmoud Abbas, announced that the Palestinian leadership would pursue its efforts with the UN Security Council and General Assembly to win backing for a unilateral declaration of statehood.

"We are working to ensure the backing of as many countries as possible [for the unilateral declaration] before the next session of the UN General Assembly," Abed Rabbo said. He also criticized the US Administration for opposing the idea.

A top aide to Abbas said in response to Fayyad's remarks: "The prime minister expressed his personal opinion. The Palestinian leadership has a different view."


It's pretty clear that the Palestinians believe further negotiation with Israel is pointless whilst Israel continues to use talks as a delaying tactic during which they can steal ever greater chunks of land that does not belong to them. In the end, unilateralism is the only option now open to Palestine. I think the Israeli move to attempt to prevent any more states recognising Palestine is evidence of just how concerned they are that they have been found out.

I wonder how long it will be before the US starts pressurising other countries not to recognise Palestine?

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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/20/2010 2:28:04 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

I wonder how long it will be before the US starts pressurising other countries not to recognise Palestine?



Soon I hope.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/20/2010 9:03:06 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

I wonder how long it will be before the US starts pressurising other countries not to recognise Palestine?



Soon I hope.


May I suggest that you do a cost-benefit analysis on the US-Israel alliance from an American perspective? What exactly does the USA get for all its cash, it's weapons and it's diplomatic protection of Israel.

The only advantages the US gets that I can see are:
*the US gets a proxy army to advance it's interests in the Middle East; and
*it gets its latest weapons tested under battle conditions by the Israelis.

There may be more (I'd love to see them listed!) but at the moment they escape me. The downside for the US is longer than the road to Jerusalem.

I suspect that if the US public was made aware of the full cost of its support for the terrorist State of Israel, it's support for Israel would quickly evaporate, much like it's support of Taiwan evaporated when the US realised which way the numbers stacked up in China.


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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/20/2010 11:40:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


[The only advantages the US gets that I can see are:
*the US gets a proxy army to advance it's interests in the Middle East;


Voila

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 1:52:33 AM   
hertz


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Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

I suspect that if the US public was made aware of the full cost of its support for the terrorist State of Israel


If...

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 6:34:47 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
May I suggest that you do a cost-benefit analysis on the US-Israel alliance from an American perspective? What exactly does the USA get for all its cash, it's weapons and it's diplomatic protection of Israel.

The only advantages the US gets that I can see are:
*the US gets a proxy army to advance it's interests in the Middle East; and
*it gets its latest weapons tested under battle conditions by the Israelis.

There may be more (I'd love to see them listed!) but at the moment they escape me. The downside for the US is longer than the road to Jerusalem.

I suspect that if the US public was made aware of the full cost of its support for the terrorist State of Israel, it's support for Israel would quickly evaporate, much like it's support of Taiwan evaporated when the US realised which way the numbers stacked up in China.


And that proves that you know nothing of history. Until you know the history of the subject well enough to know why people who do know history in the US support Israel you should shut up on the issue.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/21/2010 6:47:48 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		You are really good at telling people to shut up and learn some history, but, to be honest, a bit rubbish when it comes to your own grip on the subject.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 180
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