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RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/30/2010 5:33:52 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Israel is serious about peace talks? Not even the Israelis pretend that anymore!

You can tell how serious someone is about things by their choices and actions. Recently Israel had a choice of peace talks or continuing building in the West Bank. Israel as we all know, chose continuing to build/colonise and scuttled the peace talks.

Israel first committed to cease expanding its colonies/settlements in the West Bank in 2001 (from memory). It's 2010 position is that it is refusing to cease construction altogether. In terms of a peace process, Israel is going backwards.

Spin it anyway you like, Israel wants the West Bank more than it wants peace.

After Oslo and Dayton the Israelis pulled out of parts of the West Bank and all of Gaza. The PA broke every single requirement they were supposed to do in response.

With a track record like that why would anyone continue to negotiate with the PA?

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 201
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/31/2010 2:15:02 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		No. Israel has never ceased to occupy Gaza. The Separation Plan was one in which Israel simply evicted the settlers and closed the border, but the occupation, in every meaningful sense continued. Your statement:

quote:

The PA broke every single requirement they were supposed to do in response.


Is meaningless unless you are able to describe some specific points.


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Profile   Post #: 202
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/31/2010 2:42:57 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		The PLO and all member groups were required to acknowledge Israels right to exist and to remove language calling for the destruction of the country from the PLO charter.

The PA was required to actively work with the IDF to prevent terror attacks against Israel.

The PA was allowed to have no more than a specific size police force and no ther paramilitary or military forces.

Those are all from Oslo. They were all broken.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 203
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/31/2010 3:21:39 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		What is happening now is far more important than the past. And everyone, even the Israelis, knows exactly why the peace process is stalled right now. It has nothing to do with the status of the other party or past agreements.

The whole world knows it is because Israel refuses to stop expanding its colonies in the West Bank.

The whole world knows the peace talks will resume when Israel stops expanding its colonies in the West Bank.

This is one view of where things stand now and where they are heading:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/yossi-mekelberg-this-is-an-important-step-on-the-road-to-political-reality-2170412.html

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/31/2010 3:22:01 AM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 204
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/31/2010 4:20:02 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Netanyahu deception video

explanation...

http://www.redress.cc/palestine/jcook20100724

more...

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/how-israel-caused-the-oslo-accords-to-fail-1.254165




< Message edited by hertz -- 12/31/2010 4:24:17 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 205
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/31/2010 8:52:15 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The PLO and all member groups were required to acknowledge Israels right to exist and to remove language calling for the destruction of the country from the PLO charter.

The PA was required to actively work with the IDF to prevent terror attacks against Israel.

The PA was allowed to have no more than a specific size police force and no ther paramilitary or military forces.

Those are all from Oslo. They were all broken.


You can find the text of the Oslo agreement here. Please feel free to point out where you think your claims are explicitly stated.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 206
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 12/31/2010 12:21:47 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The PLO and all member groups were required to acknowledge Israels right to exist and to remove language calling for the destruction of the country from the PLO charter.

The PA was required to actively work with the IDF to prevent terror attacks against Israel.

The PA was allowed to have no more than a specific size police force and no ther paramilitary or military forces.

Those are all from Oslo. They were all broken.


You can find the text of the Oslo agreement here. Please feel free to point out where you think your claims are explicitly stated.


That's Oslo I.


Oslo II
Specifically changing the PLO charter is article XXXI (9)

Security cooperation is article XII.

PA not being allowed military or paramilitary forces is article XIV.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 207
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 2:31:22 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		and hertz and tweak again demonstrate that Anti Semites are liars and intellectual cowards.

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 208
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 4:28:51 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		So to illustrate your original suggestion that 'the Palestinians' haven't stuck to a single agreement, you have come up with three articles from the seriously broken Oslo II, the first of which was so badly drafted it isn't really clear if the Palestinians have done what was asked of them or not, the second of which was a shared responsibility between Israel and PLO, and the last was a ridiculous nonsense from day 1. I don't suppose you are at all interested in the ways in which Israel failed to keep to its side of the bargain, are you?

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 209
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 4:34:23 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

So to illustrate your original suggestion that 'the Palestinians' haven't stuck to a single agreement, you have come up with three articles from the seriously broken Oslo II, the first of which was so badly drafted it isn't really clear if the Palestinians have done what was asked of them or not, the second of which was a shared responsibility between Israel and PLO, and the last was a ridiculous nonsense from day 1. I don't suppose you are at all interested in the ways in which Israel failed to keep to its side of the bargain, are you?

As I pointed out the very first thing the PLO had to do was change their charter. They broke the deal at their first opportunity. Since Israel allowed and administered the elections and transferred control of the first parts of the West Bank they obeyed the agreement longer and more fully than the PLO. Which they didn't have to do. After the first time the PLO violated the agreement they would have been fully and completely within their rights, and standard behavior of all nations, to immediately stop implementing the agreement.

To claim otherwise is to demonstrate the bias you have been accused of.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 210
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 4:40:04 PM   
hertz


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Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has laid the cornerstone for an embassy in Brazil - what will be the first such Palestinian delegation in the western hemisphere.
A ceremony was held on Friday to initiate the building's construction in Brasilia, the capital, and Abbas thanked Brazil for recognising his naiton's statehood, adding that other countries were following suit.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/12/20101231172518620189.html

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 211
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 4:45:56 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

So to illustrate your original suggestion that 'the Palestinians' haven't stuck to a single agreement, you have come up with three articles from the seriously broken Oslo II, the first of which was so badly drafted it isn't really clear if the Palestinians have done what was asked of them or not, the second of which was a shared responsibility between Israel and PLO, and the last was a ridiculous nonsense from day 1. I don't suppose you are at all interested in the ways in which Israel failed to keep to its side of the bargain, are you?

As I pointed out the very first thing the PLO had to do was change their charter. They broke the deal at their first opportunity. Since Israel allowed and administered the elections and transferred control of the first parts of the West Bank they obeyed the agreement longer and more fully than the PLO. Which they didn't have to do. After the first time the PLO violated the agreement they would have been fully and completely within their rights, and standard behavior of all nations, to immediately stop implementing the agreement.

To claim otherwise is to demonstrate the bias you have been accused of.


I have never pretended to be unbiased. Unlike yourself, I am very open about my partisanship. It's actually you who is extremely one-sided and pretending not to be.

My reading of the situation is that it is possible the PLO no longer have a charter. It seems quite unclear what the truth of it is. certainly both Clinton and Netanyahu seemed satisfied with whatever happened. I didn't know much about Oslo before reading around it this week. It all looks a bit of a mess. And that isn't just the fault of 'the Palestinians'.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 212
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 4:48:41 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


Posts: 3506
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has laid the cornerstone for an embassy in Brazil - what will be the first such Palestinian delegation in the western hemisphere.
A ceremony was held on Friday to initiate the building's construction in Brasilia, the capital, and Abbas thanked Brazil for recognising his naiton's statehood, adding that other countries were following suit.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/12/20101231172518620189.html





How will that work?

You can't tunnel into Lebanon from Brazil?


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 1/1/2011 4:49:24 PM >

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

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Profile   Post #: 213
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 4:56:25 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has laid the cornerstone for an embassy in Brazil - what will be the first such Palestinian delegation in the western hemisphere.
A ceremony was held on Friday to initiate the building's construction in Brasilia, the capital, and Abbas thanked Brazil for recognising his naiton's statehood, adding that other countries were following suit.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/12/20101231172518620189.html





How will that work?

You can't tunnel into Lebanon from Brazil?



With some of them in an Embassy far away from Israel, it's going to make it quite difficult for the IDF to kill every Palestinian.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)
Profile   Post #: 214
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 5:02:46 PM   
CerVeza


Posts: 156
Joined: 10/13/2010
Status: offline 		I was recognized by several south american countries too.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 215
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 5:08:39 PM   
SmoothOperator


Posts: 3
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, has laid the cornerstone for an embassy in Brazil - what will be the first such Palestinian delegation in the western hemisphere.
A ceremony was held on Friday to initiate the building's construction in Brasilia, the capital, and Abbas thanked Brazil for recognising his naiton's statehood, adding that other countries were following suit.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2010/12/20101231172518620189.html



DomKen What do you mean they didn't have to?
Facts Israel is occupying Palestine and its capital Jerusalem since 1967 not the other way around..so you're saying if another country occupies your city they dont need to give it back?
Interesting biased philosophy you got

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 216
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/1/2011 9:13:42 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Lots of demands for the Palestinians to recognise Israel. There is de facto recognition already. Otherwise who is doing the negotiating in the now stalled peace process? Who did the Palestinians negotiate the Oslo Accords with? Who did the Israelis negotiate the Oslo Accords with? (Before Sharon and Netanyahu destroyed the Oslo Accords, of course.)

I'm looking forward to hearing similar demands being made of Israel - specifically that Likud and other Israeli political parties remove their claim over the West Bank ("Judea" and "Samaria") from their charters. Or that Israel formally and eternally renounces any claim to lands outside its internationally recognised (pre-1967) borders.

It's really time that we all accepted Israeli posturing for what it is - a charade to delay any resolution while it continues to steal the West Bank in open defiance of international law and the international community. Recent events, (especially, the collapse of the latest round of the peace process,) do not allow any other interpretation of Israeli policy or goals.

After 40+ years of brutal military occupation and incessant colonisation, Israel has exhausted all the possible excuses for remaining in the West Bank bar one - Israel wants to annexe the West Bank, ethnically 'cleanse' it and keep it for itself.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/1/2011 9:32:24 PM >

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 217
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 6:12:25 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SmoothOperator
DomKen What do you mean they didn't have to?
Facts Israel is occupying Palestine and its capital Jerusalem since 1967 not the other way around..so you're saying if another country occupies your city they dont need to give it back?
Interesting biased philosophy you got


There has never been a nation of Palestine. In 1967 Israel occupied and annexed the West Bank which was part of Transjordan and the Gaza Strip which was part of Egypt.

Another fact to keep in mind is that in 1946 when the UN created the plan that would have created an Arab Palestine alongside a Jewish Israel, Jerusalem was to be a UN protectorate and part of neither nation. Instead Transjordan occupied and annexed it. They categorically refused to allow any Jews access to the Western Wall, Judaisms holiest site. That situation persisted from 1948 to 1967. Jews could look at the Wall through binoculars and telescopes from a hill just inside Israel but could not get any closer. During that same time period the Jewish cemetary in the Old City on the Mount of Olives was desecrated and many tombstones were removed and used for building material by the Arabs.

If you were a Jew and knowing the history of Jerusalem. would you ever support turning over the area to Arabs?

(in reply to SmoothOperator)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 6:24:09 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

So to illustrate your original suggestion that 'the Palestinians' haven't stuck to a single agreement, you have come up with three articles from the seriously broken Oslo II, the first of which was so badly drafted it isn't really clear if the Palestinians have done what was asked of them or not, the second of which was a shared responsibility between Israel and PLO, and the last was a ridiculous nonsense from day 1. I don't suppose you are at all interested in the ways in which Israel failed to keep to its side of the bargain, are you?

As I pointed out the very first thing the PLO had to do was change their charter. They broke the deal at their first opportunity. Since Israel allowed and administered the elections and transferred control of the first parts of the West Bank they obeyed the agreement longer and more fully than the PLO. Which they didn't have to do. After the first time the PLO violated the agreement they would have been fully and completely within their rights, and standard behavior of all nations, to immediately stop implementing the agreement.

To claim otherwise is to demonstrate the bias you have been accused of.


I have never pretended to be unbiased. Unlike yourself, I am very open about my partisanship. It's actually you who is extremely one-sided and pretending not to be.

My reading of the situation is that it is possible the PLO no longer have a charter. It seems quite unclear what the truth of it is. certainly both Clinton and Netanyahu seemed satisfied with whatever happened. I didn't know much about Oslo before reading around it this week. It all looks a bit of a mess. And that isn't just the fault of 'the Palestinians'.


So to be cear you admit to being an anti semite?

The PLO no longer has a charter? That will come as a shock to the PLO. Clinton and Netanyahu accepted Arafat's letter saying he would amend the charter and his statement that the offending clause was nullified. However in less than a year Arafat and other leaders of the PLO said the charter had never been modified. The fact of the matter is that the PNC has a method for amendment and that method was not followed and the charter continues to this day to deny Israels right to exist and calls for the destruction of the nation in direct violation of the Oslo agreements that allowed the creation of the PA and the begining of self government for the Palestinians.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Palestine recognised by South American nations. - 1/2/2011 7:16:35 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Being critical of Israel is not the same as anti-Semitism. I get bored with saying it over and over again, but you seem to be unable to understand it.

Here's a link to a site you will approve of in relation to the PLO charter: http://www.mfa.gov.il....htm

One of the numerous different views on the PLO charter is that the offending parts were removed, following a vote, as Oslo suggested.

There's another article on the subject here: http://www.economist.com/node/178258

And I have read in a number of places that the Palestinian Constitution can now be considered to have replaced the charter of the PLO. Link here: http://www.mideastweb.org/basiclaw.htm

Truth is, the whole thing is a mess and much has changed since Oslo, including Israel's failure to end the occupation of Palestine.

You're only dragging the whole mess up as a way of derailing a thread which is actually about Palestine being recognised by nations without further reference to Israel because of the failure of the 'roadmap' due to the Israeli insistence on stealing and occupying land that does not belong to it.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 220
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