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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
By service I usually mean acts of labor done to bring comfort or convenience to a dominant.

Let us imagine a submissive who does not wish to experience a given activity but does so only because the dominant wishes to engage in it. I would also describe enduring discomfort, whether physical or mental, because the dominant wishes to give it to be a form of service. However, I put this type of service in a different category than the prior kind. For sake of this discussion, I will call the first type labor-centric service and the second type endurance-centric service. I think a desire for each can co-exist in a given person.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
One point I often raise when discussing topping from the bottom or a submissive suggesting an activity is that just because an activity is suggested by the submissive does not remove it's D/s or SM value.

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
The comments above I speak generally based on a collective observation across threads of past. With respect to this thread, when it is to rent space, that is a different matter and a discussion to share costs is reasonable. I do not know enough about that specific situation to comment on it further one way or another.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
However, I might discuss the semantics with them, since we'd have different definitions.

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A large majority of top/bottom arrangements stem from those areas where I do call it mutually beneficial play.  I want to flog somebody and they want to be flogged.  It's a party.

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Just because he asks for it doesn't mean he's getting it or that the power structure has changed.  Whether he receives the activity or not is a decision based in My authority.

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I don't quibble about small stuff.  If I play with someone once or twice and we're engaging in a type where there is an expense incurred (needles for example) you're probably not ever going to hear anything from Me about cost.  If we're doing a scene a week for a year, where I'm providing all of the materials and I'm not getting any more out of the bottom than a 'see ya', I think that's just plain rude.  Again, we're not talking about D/s here.  We're talking about top/bottom and mutually beneficial arrangements.  In such, there should be some form of mutually shared expense, effort, hosting, etc going on.

I understand your point of how sensitive that males might be regarding being protective in relation to money, but that can't be a basis for using someone else and expecting them to be the one who incurs all of the costs. 

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ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
Thank you for your comments :) I continue to reflect on the matter.

I think it is a good idea to calibrate terminology in general: what does each mean by service, submission, humiliation, etc.

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I think top/bottom arrangements and relationships have to be mutually beneficial for the arrangement to remain interesting to each person. The point for which I am interested to invite discussion is what makes it mutually beneficial so that it is also beneficial to the top. I do so with reference to comments that a top learns skills and expends energy to perform the activity. I learned my massage skills and find the act to be satisfying as long as I feel the appropriate draw to the person. I am reflecting on what scenario would make me uninterested or feel short changed. I am simultaneously wondering how much or not the same--doing the act itself is gratifying and I do not seek any compensation for learning skills for an activity I enjoy--applies to tops and invite comments from tops about what would make a scenario satisfying for them.

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Also, when there is talk of a top performing an activity, I am making a case that the bottom deserves credit for his portion of involvement, which is to endure discomfort. Sure, he enjoys it. But then so does the top when expending the energy if they are mutually interested in the activity. I recognize the math may not be as simple, which is why I am inviting discussion to get more perspective from tops. What makes the mutual benefit equal or equal enough? Is anyone here able to reflect on a topping experience that was satisfying and contrast it with one that was not, and comment on what made it satisfying?

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I agree with each comment above. I find these matters to arise more when contacts are made via online than when they are made organically.

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I extend the idea about reciprocation to reciprocation of sincerity and energy--it does not have to occur the same way but I think things progress best where it occurs in similar degrees.

My comment about the benefit of being aware of the sensitivity applies more to another discussion in which I recently posted, where I made the point that it is not the amount but the idea of asking for a tribute that touches the sensitivity. The idea has potential to apply in this discussion.

It is for this reason I presented the comment as a general comment and not one specifically directed at the scenario in hand. In the given scenario, it is reasonable to expect contribution to costs where a rental is involved. I would not have responded as did the man in the scenario that occurred. How I would respond, however, could be impacted by how the matter was addressed and whether it occurred in a way that touched the sensitivity. Suppose something occurs that does touch upon the sensitivity. Depending on how much conversation has occurred and how much there is to mitigate an issue that does touch upon the sensitivity, I would treat it as a flag and be watchful for other behavior.

Let us examine two different routes a conversation about rental costs might take.

Domme: We will have to rent space to have the scene. I am going to have you take care of the rental cost and I will procure the supplies needed.
Domme: We will have to rent space to have the scene. The rent is coming from your pocket. End of discussion.

The first positions the contribution as fair and mutual. The second positions the contribution as one done by virtue of the roles. The second approach may enhance the submissive mindset in one submissive and it might touch the sensitivity in another.

For emphasis, I know very little about the scenario described and make no suggestion about what occurred there. There are men who are selfish and I am content to give the benefit of doubt and say the man in that scenario was selfish. I present my comment as a general comment towards the general scenario where such an issue might arise.

Cheers,

Sea

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One domme said that some women are protective against being sexually used and so when a man gets sexual gratification, something else in return helps the woman not feel used.