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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 2:51:06 PM   
hertz


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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 2:52:50 PM   
KenDckey


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Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		Hertz   And assuming you are correct that Americans are sending weapons south (as an assumption I will give you that for theoretical purposes) then What is the M exican Govt doing to stop that trade?

Secondly, when i see stuff online about mexico I see mostly that non-govt troops are armed with AK47's and that govt troops (including police) are armed with M16's and German weapons.  The US does not produce the German weapons and does not produce the AK's.   We also are not, legally, authorized to possess fully automatic weapons that I hear are used down there.   Well we can own them but only with permission of the govt and they are strictly controlled and highly taxed.   So where are these weapons coming from.   isn't it in South Africa where you can get a fully automatic AK for like $100 (I think I heard that on the history channel recently).   Also, I believe that the drug cartels have their own air force.   Isn't it probable taht they would fly over and get them if they needed them?

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 3:31:28 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

This is a problem created by lax US border control - not of immigrants coming into the US, but of illegal weapons entering Mexico.


Bogus statistic. A large percentage (about 87%) of illegal weapons that can be traced at all can be traced to the US. But, less than a quarter of all guns seized can be traced at all, because other countries dont maintain the paper trail and serial numbers that the US does on all weapons manufacture. In reality the US is the source for less than 1/3 of the illegal weapons in Mexico.

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 3:32:00 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Hertz   And assuming you are correct that Americans are sending weapons south (as an assumption I will give you that for theoretical purposes) then What is the M exican Govt doing to stop that trade?


What I am suggesting to you is that the border is porous in two directions. The Mexican government is doing as much as it can to fight the drug cartels (no doubt encouraged to do so by the US), but surely you can see that they are facing a huge, huge problem with this. They live next door to a country with a huge appetite for drugs (that would be your country), and they live next door to a country with a huge supply of easily obtained weaponry (again, this would be the US). All I am saying to you really is that if Mexico bordered (for example) Germany, it wouldn't be facing the nightmare it is currently facing. Yes, there are problems in the US caused by Mexican drug cartels and illegal immigrants, but believe me, the problems the US faces from Mexico are minuscule compared with the problems your country causes them. I think the Mexican government is doing everything it can with the resources it has. I don't believe I can say the same of the US government.

quote:

Secondly, when i see stuff online about mexico I see mostly that non-govt troops are armed with AK47's and that govt troops (including police) are armed with M16's and German weapons.  The US does not produce the German weapons and does not produce the AK's.


Cloned versions of the AK47 are produced in the US. The German weapons are readily imported into the US quite legally and are easily obtained by criminals.

quote:

We also are not, legally, authorized to possess fully automatic weapons that I hear are used down there.   Well we can own them but only with permission of the govt and they are strictly controlled and highly taxed.   So where are these weapons coming from.   isn't it in South Africa where you can get a fully automatic AK for like $100 (I think I heard that on the history channel recently).   Also, I believe that the drug cartels have their own air force.   Isn't it probable taht they would fly over and get them if they needed them?



You honestly think the cartels would fly all the way to South Africa to get an AK, when they only need to ask someone in the US to deliver? It's easy enough to come up with scenarios that put the US in the clear, but I am not sure that these scenarios match reality. The reality is that the cartels use weapons sourced from the US.

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 3:45:18 PM   
hertz


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Joined: 8/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

This is a problem created by lax US border control - not of immigrants coming into the US, but of illegal weapons entering Mexico.


Bogus statistic. A large percentage (about 87%) of illegal weapons that can be traced at all can be traced to the US. But, less than a quarter of all guns seized can be traced at all, because other countries dont maintain the paper trail and serial numbers that the US does on all weapons manufacture. In reality the US is the source for less than 1/3 of the illegal weapons in Mexico.


If three quarters of the guns cannot be traced, that does not immediately imply that they do not come from the US, regardless of paper trails. I do not believe the US government has a record of every weapon imported into or manufactured in the US. What your argument suggests is that a minimum of 30% of all illegal weapons in Mexico are sourced from the US.

Reality is, I don't think anyone knows for sure what is going on with the weapons trade between the US and Mexico, but there can be no denying that the freedom with which weapons can be obtained in the US fuels the problems in Mexico.

I am not suggesting the US needs to change its stance on firearms (although personally, I am in favour of gun control). What I am suggesting is that it would be better if the only people to suffer from the US government's lack of control on guns were American citizens. Why should Mexicans have to suffer as well?

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 4:21:26 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

A little-known rule, introduced by Labour in 2003, allows illegal immigrants to claim "indefinite leave to remain" if they manage to live in Britain's black economy for long enough or are failed asylum seekers who manage to avoid deportation.

After 14 years they can apply to the Home Office which considers factors such as "compassionate circumstances, strength of connection to the UK and previous criminal record", before deciding whether an illegal immigrant will be allowed to stay.

.......

"Rewarding illegal behaviour is always bad, and there ought to be a lot more effort put into stopping people getting to this 14 year level.

"One of the reasons why we want to set up a specialist border police force is to prevent people being able to stay here for many years entirely below the radar."

Sir Andrew Green, the chairman of Migrationwatch, said: "It is wrong in principle that people who have been undercutting British workers for many years and often paying no tax should be granted full access to our welfare state.

"This is a reward for crime, provided you get away with it for long enough."




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/7279436/Thousands-of-illegal-immigrants-win-right-to-stay-in-Britain-under-squatters-rights.html

Sound familiar, hertz? I suggest you worry more about your own back door in matters related to illegal immigrants.



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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 5:53:27 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Hertz   And assuming you are correct that Americans are sending weapons south (as an assumption I will give you that for theoretical purposes) then What is the M exican Govt doing to stop that trade?


What I am suggesting to you is that the border is porous in two directions. The Mexican government is doing as much as it can to fight the drug cartels (no doubt encouraged to do so by the US), but surely you can see that they are facing a huge, huge problem with this. They live next door to a country with a huge appetite for drugs (that would be your country), and they live next door to a country with a huge supply of easily obtained weaponry (again, this would be the US). All I am saying to you really is that if Mexico bordered (for example) Germany, it wouldn't be facing the nightmare it is currently facing. Yes, there are problems in the US caused by Mexican drug cartels and illegal immigrants, but believe me, the problems the US faces from Mexico are minuscule compared with the problems your country causes them. I think the Mexican government is doing everything it can with the resources it has. I don't believe I can say the same of the US government.

quote:

Secondly, when i see stuff online about mexico I see mostly that non-govt troops are armed with AK47's and that govt troops (including police) are armed with M16's and German weapons.  The US does not produce the German weapons and does not produce the AK's.


Cloned versions of the AK47 are produced in the US. The German weapons are readily imported into the US quite legally and are easily obtained by criminals.

quote:

We also are not, legally, authorized to possess fully automatic weapons that I hear are used down there.   Well we can own them but only with permission of the govt and they are strictly controlled and highly taxed.   So where are these weapons coming from.   isn't it in South Africa where you can get a fully automatic AK for like $100 (I think I heard that on the history channel recently).   Also, I believe that the drug cartels have their own air force.   Isn't it probable taht they would fly over and get them if they needed them?



You honestly think the cartels would fly all the way to South Africa to get an AK, when they only need to ask someone in the US to deliver? It's easy enough to come up with scenarios that put the US in the clear, but I am not sure that these scenarios match reality. The reality is that the cartels use weapons sourced from the US.



1 - What does your comment have to do with the question?   Should I repeat?

2 - Cloned AK's come from China  And they are sporterized versions not fully auto.   I have seen some come from other countries but they are rare.   To import a fully automatic weapon into this country for personal use requires a ton of paperwork.   So those few that are here, other than those in the hands of licensed individuals, come into our country illegally.

3 - I only meant to imply that they are cheap in other countries and in the fully auto capability   or do you understand the difference between semi- and full- automatic weapons?


SHOW US YOUR SOURCE    IF IT IS AN OPINION THEN STATE SO

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 5:58:15 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Gosh- one would hardly know it is Christmas.   

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 5:59:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		It isnt Christmas.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 6:00:56 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I suppose.  

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 6:01:41 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		lol   we still have a week to go to be Christmas   Bahhhhhhhhhh Humbug

I thought Christmas was another oppertunity to excell   :)   and no my stupid fingers can't lleps

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 6:03:31 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol

Merry Fycking Christmas to you too!



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to KenDckey)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 6:05:00 PM   
KenDckey


Posts: 4121
Joined: 5/31/2006
Status: offline 		hehehehehe  Roses for me?     My PTSD kicks in every Christmas.   ugh   Make it go away

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:12:38 PM   
PyrotheClown


Posts: 1950
Joined: 5/18/2009
Status: offline 		Wow, it looks like most of you(both sides) have no fucking idea what you're talking about lol
I'd like to first point out the obvious , Mexico has a very(VERY) corrupt government, thus it's easy for the "federali" to loose a few AK's to the drug lords quiet easily, without having to cross any borders


HOWEVER...The US does import a shit load of evil into mexico...via MONEY(more specifically, drug money,aka how the druglords are able to grab arms from their own government). With out America's insatiable thirst for drugs(and money to go with), the drug lords wouldn't have near the power. The recent border crack downs are one of the main reasons for the violence(that and a power vacum left by a kingpin), with less product entering the country to the same size of market, the gangs are now fighting for mules ect. to cross their product over the border(plus new tensions between newschool less corrupt officials and the old good ol'boy system of the PRE)..

but that's neither here nor there, the OP mentioned Lowering Crime and taxes, well there's a problem with that.Law enforcement costs money, lots and lots of money, fighting something like illegal immigration means increased funds for the poors SOB's that gotta go and nab the illegals, how does that decrease taxes?now for the bullshit argument that illegal immigrants run amok, well if that were true, el paso would be a complete shit hole(fun fact, el-paso is the safest city in the US), orange county would also be a shit hole, Corona(with the highest rate of illegal immigrants in the country, trust me, I was the may fifth lol) would have a huge crime rate in comparison to..oh...lets say LA( lots of Hispanics, but not nearly as much as Corona)but they don't, Corona is a ghetto, but even as down and out as they are, it's a hell of a lot safer then the higher(by comparison)income LA... why is this, it's the united states, the great melting pot.When poor down and out brown kids figure out that rich white kids are willing to pay bukkoo dollar for the shit that runs through the ghetto(weed, coke,meth,pills,ect.), then people start hussle'n( this is a capitalist country after all)and hussler's gotta up their game(bribes,ho's and guns aint cheap) which means they gotta lean in on other husssler's who are just trying to get by selling vast quantities of drugs to rich white kids, which in the end leads to dead cops, dead dealers, and a shit load of high (formerly rich) white kids(hence the crime most associate with Hispanics, even though they are rarely the ones you see in rehab)
I'm also always confused with the notion that illegals are stealing our jobs, last I checked, there's nothing stopping any able bodied red blooded American from standing in front of a homedepot for day labor(I do day labor all the time)or following the migrant farmer route for close to minimum wage. Angered at illegal immigrants being employed, stop buying from those who hire them.


Besides,we're loosing alot more jobs to outsourcing then illegals



So would deporting a shit load of poor illegal immigrants help our situation?
It would cost a shit load to deport them, even more to secure our border properly.
People in this country would still buy and sell illegal drugs(and who ever is dealing would probably keep doing things the same way)
industry would still exploit its workers, or charge more to cover livable wages.

(in reply to KenDckey)
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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:23:22 PM   
PyrotheClown


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Joined: 5/18/2009
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quote:

They look like they came right out of the stone age minus the hair. Some of them are pretty scary looking.
So, the local and state police in this state (SC) are on top of the situation.
About four or five miles down the road are a bunch of trailers that they live in. Whenever we see three or four cop cars go screaming by here everyone knows where they're going! About four or five years ago one of them killed another in a drunkin knife fight.


Same can be said for the very American born and white trailer park down the street



quote:

We have 10% unemployment.
We have 10% illegal aliens (who are either working for a living, or stealing for one)
We just extended unemployment benefits to THREE fucking years.
The libtards claim illegals are good for us.

You can't make this shit up.


well, you can make up bullshit percentages...good job lol

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:40:15 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Based on this http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-st-louis/why-the-silence-on-what-percentage-of-mexican-crime-guns-are-traced , 75,000 guns were seized in Mexico and 80% of the guns that were traced came from the US.

This would lead a person to believe that 60,000 of those guns came from the US.

Not so. If you read VERRRRRY closely, you will see that only about 25% of the guns were tracable.

So, if 80% of the guns that were traced came from the US and 25% were tracable that means that

20% of the guns seized in mexico were from the US.

Now, the rest is supposition by yours truly.

The US Government sells guns to the Mexican military

The Mexican Military is a weeeee bit corrupt. I wonder how many of those guns that were traced back to the US actually originated with the Mexican military?

Quite a lot, Id say.

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:41:44 PM   
Charles6682


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Status: offline 		The only reason Republican's want illegal immigrant's here is so their billionaire buddie's have dirt cheap labor with no right's at all.It's not because Republican's actually care about them.We all know better than that.

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:45:34 PM   
PyrotheClown


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Joined: 5/18/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

The Mexican Military is a weeeee bit corrupt. I wonder how many of those guns that were traced back to the US actually originated with the Mexican military?

Quite a lot, Id say.


there's also the question of howmany criminal drug dealers are also former Mexican military

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:54:56 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Illegal immigration was winked at for decades by both parties because agribusiness needed cheap labor. The family farm started disappearing early in the 20th century. The problem is that large factory farms need cheap labor. Read Steinbeck sometime to get a handle on the early days of 'factory farming'

There has always been an underclass willing to work in inhumane conditions for below market wages. The problem began in the late 50's thru the 60's with the drug culture and the resulting smuggling and criminal gang activity.

By the 70's, the drug cartels were in full swing and people who had been living on $50 a month all of a sudden had a chance to make 10 or 100 times that much. Cocaine and marijuana from Latin America flooded into the states.

Still, our leaders winked at the problem of illegal immigration because their campaign contributors told them to.

The problem has come to a head. Each side likes to point a finger at the other but, in reality, BOTH sides are at fault.

The Republicans, back by big business that was using illegals for profit, refused to acknowledge a problem.

The Democrats, seeing thousands of new voters as long as they kept those checks coming and made sure that illegal's kids got to go to American schools where they were free to join gangs, refused to acknowledge the problem.

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RE: Want to lower crime and cut taxes? - 12/18/2010 7:56:55 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

The Mexican Military is a weeeee bit corrupt. I wonder how many of those guns that were traced back to the US actually originated with the Mexican military?

Quite a lot, Id say.


there's also the question of howmany criminal drug dealers are also former Mexican military



I'd be willing to bet good money that some of them aren't former military.

Some of the middle level crime bosses are probably ACTIVE military.

(in reply to PyrotheClown)
Profile   Post #: 40
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