RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot

RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 6:57:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Tazzy's post above bother me A LOT. All five charges relate to Loughner shooting fed employees. Nothing about him shooting the others, including the nine year old girl. Anyone know why this is the case? Is it because these are federal charges, and charges relating to the others are filed at another level? He will be charged at a later date in a State court for the other deaths and attempted murder charges....

slvemike4u -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 7:12:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: cuckoldmepls I said they could. Hitler certainly would have done it, if we hadn't of saved your asses. And Muslims may do it in the future if you don't profess your faith to Islam. Some of you on the right are seriously deluded. Either that or they dont use history books over there. We use history books Polite....the problem seems to be that some of us use them as coasters and such,never realising that only by opening them up and actually reading the damm things does one actually utilize them to their fullest.

slvemike4u -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 7:15:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy ....if he is convicted- he would then have a felony- and as such may not buy a gun. So- it all works out in the end. This is a despicable post PA....absolutely despicable !

Hillwilliam -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 7:16:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy ....if he is convicted- he would then have a felony- and as such may not buy a gun. So- it all works out in the end. If he is convicted, he will hopefully, never draw a breath as a free man again and buying a gun is a moot point.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 7:18:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue You have, as a nation, a simple choice; either do something meaningful about gun ownership, rather than tinkering at the edges, or else accept these kind of events as the price of having a gun culture. Rapier, I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp that we have made our choice. Thank you for your concern, but we're content with our decision. Panda, usually we are in agreement on most issues but you are speaking as if everyone agrees with that point of view when you know that is not true. No, not at all, Rule. I'm saying that we as a people have made our choice. Not everyone agrees, but collectively, it is the will of the people that the right of private citizens to own firearms be upheld. quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant Actually, I would say you are right only in Panda's use of the general "we". A majority of voters are content with the decision to allow a culture in which the citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. That results in some occasions like this nutcase over the weekend. The price of freedom... Considering that no one has ever voted on it, I have to wonder how you determined the majority are content with it. Public opinion polls consistently show that Americans support the Second Amendment right of private firearm ownership by a margin of approximately 60-40%.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 7:20:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy "A majority of voters are content with the decision to allow a culture in which the citizens have the right to keep and bear arms. That results in some occasions like this nutcase over the weekend. The price of freedom... " .....then anytime you feel like it, how about you mosey on over to the parents of the kid that was killed, you know the kid that was born on 9/11. Then you look them in the eye and tell them that their daughters murder is a price for freedom that you're apparently happy to pay. Let me know how that goes. Speaking for myself, I feel that would be an incredibly insensitive intrusion upon their grief. However, should they mosey on over to me, and ask me that specific question, that would be the basis of my reply to them.

slvemike4u -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 7:30:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy ....if he is convicted- he would then have a felony- and as such may not buy a gun. So- it all works out in the end. If he is convicted, he will hopefully, never draw a breath as a free man again and buying a gun is a moot point. True...but the fallicy of his post doesn't mitigate the bad taste it took to make it.

kdsub -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 8:13:29 PM)
Did Timothy Mcveigh use guns?... did Ted Kaczynski use guns?... Did the guy who mailed anthrax use a gun? Can't you see guns are objects used to carry out their murders...as are bombs, fertilizer, and all manner of objects or products... Should we band fertilizer because a bomb can be made from it… should we ban castor beans? It is stupid to attack an object or a product thinking it will stop these fanatics from mass killing...as I've said over and over taking guns from citizens has not stopped mass murders in the UK so why would it stop them here? What we need is better mental healthcare…education… and truth in politics …any and all would be practical and useful methods of reducing these tragedies… Taking away guns would not…even if it were possible which it is not…In our life time we will never get 4/5 of our legislatures to change the amendment. This is all I am going to say about it... if you ignore the logic it is not worth my time to discuss it with you. Butch

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 9:03:28 PM)
quote: To quote Rush, "There is no evidence that he listened to talk radio. There is no evidence he listened to Fox News. There is no evidence that he saw Sarah Palin's Facebook page. No evidence he saw her lame website with the crosshairs." And if he has?

tazzygirl -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 9:22:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy ....if he is convicted- he would then have a felony- and as such may not buy a gun. So- it all works out in the end. If he is convicted, he will hopefully, never draw a breath as a free man again and buying a gun is a moot point. True...but the fallicy of his post doesn't mitigate the bad taste it took to make it. his posts have been nothing but bad taste lately.

DarkSteven -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 9:45:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy ....if he is convicted- he would then have a felony- and as such may not buy a gun. So- it all works out in the end. Yep. Everything would be fine. Except all those people he shot.

TheHeretic -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 9:59:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl his posts have been nothing but bad taste lately. Well... It was in poor taste, but so is most of this thread. His, was funny.

Kirata -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:01:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 check the official figures. You tried to muddy the waters by using the link about China. Bullshit. The "type of incident" we're discussing here is killing sprees, and you claimed "yada yada yada people kill guns dont" yet the fact remains that Americas death rate in this type of incident is exceptionally high. It is, therefore, directly on point to note the troubling frequency of such incidents in other countries, and particularly relevant to illustrate by the China example that the causes of such tragedies are independent of the available means. So far, you've demonstrated that you can't dance and can't read. Wanna go for more? K.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:05:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub There is no one way to stop determined fanatics...you have gun laws over there and still you have people mass murdered in the subways. Butch Incredible, to support your argument you are using the link of gun ownership vs suicide bombers. I find it abhorent that you can even try and do this. Its like you saying about someone being stabbed to death in the UK and me saying "Well you had 9/11" Like it or not, the fact remains that if guns were not so freely available in the US then there wouldnt be so many of these mass murders. Sure we do have similar events in the UK, like the shooting in Cumbria, but far less frequency than in the US. What a bunch of horseshit. The area of the US with the strictest gun control laws has the highest murder rate.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:09:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam I've been offline for a couple of days but following the story. When I got home, I read this whole thread. Does anyone else notice that wilbur and truckinslave havent posted here? I bet they support the sick asshole and that's why they haven't posted. Nope, just waiting to see which morons tried to turn it into a political issue. You qualified nicely.

Kirata -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:09:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy It's not the prevelance of guns that's the problem, because countries with even higher ratios of guns to citizens don't have the same sort of death rate. In a similar vein, the online summary of the UN's 1999 Global Report on Crime and Justice contains the observation that some countries have strong regulation and high firearm related homicides. Other have low regulation and low firearm related homicides. K.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:13:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack -I would also say that there is a simple reason why the level of angry rhetoric has been steadily increasing. It's because it works. Fear-mongering is a hugely successful tactic. The ranting demagogue defeats the calm intelligent debator. You might not want it that way, but that's the way it is. Joe McCarthy's anti-communist screed is looked down upon now but it was hugely successful. He won office. He got re-elected. You don't think the big political thinkers noticed this? Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?

Jeffff -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:26:08 PM)
"Vast Majority" Nice hard statistic there dude. You never fail to amuse.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:30:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff "Vast Majority" Nice hard statistic there dude. You never fail to amuse. Read a book for a change.

InvisibleBlack -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:35:58 PM)
So now that a few days have passed and there are at least some facts out there, it would appear that the shooter was not a berserk extremist on a politically-fueled rampage, driven to violence by heated rhetoric, possessed by a vile sidearm or the willing tool of a popular political agenda - he was, sadly and tragically, insane. Given the facts I've seen - that he seemed fine throughout high school and only started exhibiting symptoms in his late teens, gradually becoming less and less coherent and losing touch with reality, driving off his friends and former associates by his behavior and being expelled from college until he could prove he'd received treatment or been certified that he wasn't a hazard - my unprofessional diagnosis is that he likely suffered from untreated schizophrenia. So, aside from fueling already pre-determined politcal agendas, what's the lesson to be learned here and what's the solution? I don't know. The obvious issue is that people with mental health issues aren't receiving adequate treatment - but what's the answer? Whose job is it to find the Jared Loughner's of the world and determine what should be done with them? His family? I notice he wasn't seeming to spend a lot of time with them. His friends? That's a lot to ask of some high school student or college freshman. The university he attended? The government? Run a huge statisical analysis, define some people as marginal and lock them up or medicate them against their will? Jared Loughner obviously had no interest in seeking medical attention. Anything done to him would have been against his will. At what point should someone have stepped in and who should that someone have been? Historically, I believe, it was the state that confined people to mental insititutions or declared them insane. That system has fallen apart - at least in my state. I don't have an easy answer to this one. Anyone have any good suggestions?

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