RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (Full Version)

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Jeffff -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:42:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

"Vast Majority"


Nice hard statistic there dude. You never fail to amuse.


Read a book for a change.




Once again. delightful post. So insightful, it was a pleasure to read.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:42:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?


While I'm certainly willing to get into a discussion of Joe McCarthy, McCarthyism or what the Verona documents reveal about the communist infiltration of the United States government immediately following World War II, I don't believe that this thread is the place to do so. That would be a massive threadjack. Start a new thread and I'll be happy to post there.

My point was that Joe McCarthy's success was due his bombastic, accusatory and attack-filled rhetoric. That this success was noticed by the political thinkers of the time and emulated and expanded going forward and that the extremely partisan and anger-fueled debates going on today occur for the same reason that Joe McCarthy ranted and postured rather than debating in a calm civil manner - it works.



Jeffff -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:43:52 PM)

You are wasting your time. Wilbe has no shame.



Rule -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:48:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
my unprofessional diagnosis is that he likely suffered from untreated schizophrenia.

Considering the symptoms you listed, I am inclined to agree.

(Nevertheless I will keep in mind the conspiracy theory suggested by RealOne.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
what's the lesson to be learned here and what's the solution?

Whose job is it to find the Jared Loughner's of the world and determine what should be done with them?

Historically, I believe, it was the state that confined people to mental institutions or declared them insane.

Anyone have any good suggestions?

The USSR used to have political opponents committed to insane asylums. The state should not have anything to do with this, I think. A judge ought to be involved. Also keep in mind that people sound of mind can be made crazy by giving them medication. In fact, it has been suggested - and is perchance true - that some people in mental institutions are in fact secret state prisoners.



TheHeretic -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 10:56:34 PM)

I don't know, Invisible. The family should be the first line of assistance, and they obviously weren't. Could the campus police have forced a psych referral after enough disruptive incidents at the school? Should they be able to do that?

I hope the family will choose to speak at some point.




Jeffff -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 11:13:22 PM)

I agree. I understand being hesitant about judging your child but I wonder how much they knew.



Charles6682 -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 11:43:08 PM)

New York state does have a very strict gun control policy.Maybe one of the strictest in the nation.They are still those that can gets guns illegally.Thats because these thugs go all the way down hto Georgia where any Billy Joe Ray Bo Bob can go and buy guys.Then they bring them right back to NY.Otherwise however,gun violence is usually fairly low.At least compared to Flordia.So most thugs in upstate NY use knives.



Charles6682 -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/10/2011 11:47:40 PM)

Lets see,Arizona is the mecca for the gun fanatics.Probaly some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country.I mean,Arizona basically wants everyone to have guns like the wild,wild west.Where were the law abiding citizens with their guns stopping this guy.I mean,yee-haw Sarge!Not even a security guard around?Ive seen that here in Flordia.Private security guards with guns at local grocery stores.Where were these gun kissing,gun loving,law abiding citizens at with their cowboy hats at?Dosent sound to me like relaxed gun laws are really so helpful after all,are they?



Kirata -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 12:05:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

The USSR used to have political opponents committed to insane asylums. The state should not have anything to do with this, I think. A judge ought to be involved.

Involuntary committment carries an enormous potential for abuse. Not every ranting nut is going to go berserk, and there is no reliable method of predicting which ones will. Often, it depends on (equally unpredictable) circumstances.

But, we're talking here about stopping a very small number of people before they do something. Consider, instead, that 81% of all homicide defendants have an arrest record, 70% have a conviction record; 67% have a felony arrest record, and 54% have a felony conviction (Probation and Parole Violators in State Prison, 1991: Survey of State Prison Inmates, Robyn Cohen, U.S. Dept. of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1995).

Keeping convicted felons in prison would reduce the murder rate substantially. Of course, the question then becomes do we want to make a felony conviction an automatic life sentence. In a forced choice, I guess I'd take that over sentencing people who have done nothing wrong to indefinite psychiatric imprisonment. But I don't much like either option.

The reality is, there is no human society in which innocent people are not at risk of assault, rape, and murder. And when it comes to identifying dangerous nut cases, the ability to rationalize some wonderful benefit to be obtained from denying to innocent people an effective means of defending themselves is diagnostic enough for me.

K.



Rule -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 12:28:22 AM)

Your arguments have convinced me. I agree: all commitments ought to be voluntary.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 4:11:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I've been offline for a couple of days but following the story. When I got home, I read this whole thread. Does anyone else notice that wilbur and truckinslave havent posted here? I bet they support the sick asshole and that's why they haven't posted.


Nope, just waiting to see which morons tried to turn it into a political issue. You qualified nicely.


Yes or no. Are you secretly happy about what he did?



Hillwilliam -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 4:26:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

-I would also say that there is a simple reason why the level of angry rhetoric has been steadily increasing. It's because it works. Fear-mongering is a hugely successful tactic. The ranting demagogue defeats the calm intelligent debator. You might not want it that way, but that's the way it is. Joe McCarthy's anti-communist screed is looked down upon now but it was hugely successful. He won office. He got re-elected. You don't think the big political thinkers noticed this? 




Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?

In the first "Communist Hunting" hearings, McCarthy claimed he had 108 communists names that worked in the state department.
The conclusion of the commission *a drum roll please*


ZERO of the 108 were shown to be commies. In fact, some of those 108 had never worked for the state dept.

McCarthy died at age 48 before he could try to be elected for a third term of complications of alcoholism.



Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 4:30:43 AM)

I'd be interested to see who wilbur can name as a bona fide commie who got outed as such by the HUAC. I don't really think Joseph Losey counts, somehow...



pahunkboy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:09:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

So now that a few days have passed and there are at least some facts out there, it would appear that the shooter was not a berserk extremist on a politically-fueled rampage, driven to violence by heated rhetoric, possessed by a vile sidearm or the willing tool of a popular political agenda - he was, sadly and tragically, insane. Given the facts I've seen - that he seemed fine throughout high school and only started exhibiting symptoms in his late teens, gradually becoming less and less coherent and losing touch with reality, driving off his friends and former associates by his behavior and being expelled from college until he could prove he'd received treatment or been certified that he wasn't a hazard - my unprofessional diagnosis is that he likely suffered from untreated schizophrenia.

So, aside from fueling already pre-determined politcal agendas, what's the lesson to be learned here and what's the solution?

I don't know. The obvious issue is that people with mental health issues aren't receiving adequate treatment - but what's the answer? Whose job is it to find the Jared Loughner's of the world and determine what should be done with them? His family? I  notice he wasn't seeming to spend a lot of time with them. His friends? That's a lot to ask of some high school student or college freshman. The university he attended? The government? Run a huge statisical analysis, define some people as marginal and lock them up or medicate them against their will?

Jared Loughner obviously had no interest in seeking medical attention. Anything done to him would have been against his will. At what point should someone have stepped in and who should that someone have been?

Historically, I believe, it was the state that confined people to mental insititutions or declared them insane. That system has fallen apart - at least in my state. I don't have an easy answer to this one. Anyone have any good suggestions?


The shooter is into the occult.

So- shall we limit freedom of religion?

Also-  keep in mind DUE PROCESS.

Just last week- a congressman and pundits called for the assassination of wiki leaks founder.

Here in the US we have Due Process.   Or we are supposed to.



Moonhead -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:20:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
The shooter is into the occult.

You have still yet to explain how this makes him a lefty, I note.
Apart from Alan Moore and the late Gerald Gardner, can you even name any left leaning occultniks, come to that?



EternalHoH -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:30:40 AM)

Absolutely, Loughner will get the needle.  That defiant mug shot smirk pretty much cemented that outcome. Then we won't have to worry about mental health treatment for him.



DomKen -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:31:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

-I would also say that there is a simple reason why the level of angry rhetoric has been steadily increasing. It's because it works. Fear-mongering is a hugely successful tactic. The ranting demagogue defeats the calm intelligent debator. You might not want it that way, but that's the way it is. Joe McCarthy's anti-communist screed is looked down upon now but it was hugely successful. He won office. He got re-elected. You don't think the big political thinkers noticed this? 




Since the vast majority of those accused by McCarthy of being Communists were later proven to be Communists, whats your point?

Really? How many people on the list he waved at his speech in Wheeling were Communists? Can you even list all the names on the list? Was it the 205 he said or the 57 he used when he entered the text of the speech into the Congressional Record?

What about his investigation of Fort Monmouth where he claimed a spy ring was operating in a signal corps lab but his investigation never named anyone?

As a matter of fact the last evaluation I saw said of the 159 people on various lists McCarthy actually produced only 9 were actual spies.
http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page62.html



pahunkboy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:37:01 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRgeS_6NYgQ&feature=feedlik

the rabbit hold runs deep.  why is he still posting on youtube?



pahunkboy -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:38:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
The shooter is into the occult.

You have still yet to explain how this makes him a lefty, I note.
Apart from Alan Moore and the late Gerald Gardner, can you even name any left leaning occultniks, come to that?


You have yet, to take me to Disneyland!

-just sayn-



DomYngBlk -> RE: Arizona Democrat Congresswoman and 11 others shot (1/11/2011 5:42:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

So now that a few days have passed and there are at least some facts out there, it would appear that the shooter was not a berserk extremist on a politically-fueled rampage, driven to violence by heated rhetoric, possessed by a vile sidearm or the willing tool of a popular political agenda - he was, sadly and tragically, insane. Given the facts I've seen - that he seemed fine throughout high school and only started exhibiting symptoms in his late teens, gradually becoming less and less coherent and losing touch with reality, driving off his friends and former associates by his behavior and being expelled from college until he could prove he'd received treatment or been certified that he wasn't a hazard - my unprofessional diagnosis is that he likely suffered from untreated schizophrenia.

So, aside from fueling already pre-determined politcal agendas, what's the lesson to be learned here and what's the solution?

I don't know. The obvious issue is that people with mental health issues aren't receiving adequate treatment - but what's the answer? Whose job is it to find the Jared Loughner's of the world and determine what should be done with them? His family? I  notice he wasn't seeming to spend a lot of time with them. His friends? That's a lot to ask of some high school student or college freshman. The university he attended? The government? Run a huge statisical analysis, define some people as marginal and lock them up or medicate them against their will?

Jared Loughner obviously had no interest in seeking medical attention. Anything done to him would have been against his will. At what point should someone have stepped in and who should that someone have been?

Historically, I believe, it was the state that confined people to mental insititutions or declared them insane. That system has fallen apart - at least in my state. I don't have an easy answer to this one. Anyone have any good suggestions?


So, thats it? He is simply crazy cause some reporter , reported to another reporter that, indeed, he is crazy? I don't think there are any "facts" out about this. However, anyone can connect the dots and get the faces of Palin, Beck, and Limbaugh out of it...



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