RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (Full Version)

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feastie -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 5:30:47 AM)

As a parent, I am in charge of to what my children are exposed or not exposed.  No one, but no one, has the right to take that choice from me.  There are places for the general public and there are places that are for certain defined portions of the public.  You want to do public play, fine, then do it in a place where it is acceptable to everyone.  Don't take my choices away from me because you think it's your right. Have some care and thought for someone besides yourself.  A mall is open to the general public.  Should I not show up with my children to buy school clothes or what have you because some lame ass wants to make a public statement about his sexuality? 

There are much better ways, indeed, smarter ways to recognize and promote the lifestyle.  The in your face method only provokes negativity.  I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I'd rather promote positivity. 




MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 5:53:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix 
I find it so disheartening that those who are willing to stand up and put their necks on the line for the freedoms to do what it is we do, are talking punches from the very "community of lifestylers" they are supporting.


I was just waiting for this argument to come up.  To basically say that these people are
doing all of "us" a favour and we're kicking them when they're down is just a ridiculous attempt to shame and guilt us into jumping on the Rah!Rah!  bandwagon. I don't recall asking anyone else in the "community" to take these risks on my behalf nor does their risk taking benefit me in any way because I won't be out there on a leash/wearing a corset/cuffs/etc even if it does become socially acceptable because of people who push for those changes. If they want to push for change good for them. I'll support them in the same way that I'd support  anyone who is standing up for something they believe in which is pretty much limited to a "good for them" and then I get on with my life.  Not everyone in the community WANTS or NEEDS these so-called "freedoms" so please don't insinuate that we should all be grateful because others want to flaunt their kink. It's of absolutely no consequence to me either way so I can't really get too worked up about it beyond posting on a message board about it.

I still feel the way I did when I originally posted - if you're going to do something you know isn't socially acceptable then accept the consequences of doing so. If you feel its for the greater good then again, good for you. But please don't act like every kinky person on the face of the planet should offer unmitigated support.

quote:


At one point I was going to respond to this thread questioning if those who disapprove of the collar/leash in public find themselves approving or disapproving of the laws that keep us "down". (i.e. stores not being permitted to sell bondage items, certain airlines not letting us transport certain things in our toybags, etc...) but I wasn't quite sure how to phrase it.


Keep us down? LOL Oh my goodness. This reminds me of high school. Sorry, but where are WE being "kept down?"  That's news to me. Just because you can't go into your neighbourhood convenience store and buy a whip doesn't mean you're being kept down. If I want a whip or a collar or chains or whatever there are any number of stores I can go to or I can even order on the internet and have it shipped to me overnight. Pretty nifty how that works, eh?

quote:


I have this concept in my head of "whether you realize it or not, those people who are wearing their leashes in public are taking the hit so you have the freedom to practice this lifestyle." but I can't seem to get myself articulate enough to express what I'm thinking.


Again, please don't assume these people are doing me any favours because they aren't. I don't feel obligated to be grateful to someone for something they chose to do of their own accord. Just because you think they're helping me doesn't mean I feel the same way.

quote:


Yes, it may be that some folks only do this in their bedrooms. But when we allow little intolerances like supporting mall security for escorting someone out of the building, it leads to bigger intolerance, like allowing business to shut their doors to people wearing collars, and then city ordinences against collars, and then laws that prohibit any type of clothing that may insinuate or hint to sadomasochism, and frankly, that kind of crap is exactly what gets a politician's foot in our bedroom doors.
That's not only *not* making progress. It's moving backward.


Ahhh, yes, the slippery slope argument. Do you have any proof that A leads to B leads to C, etc? If you don't then it's just a logical fallacy.

quote:


If we can't even support our own and agree amongst ourselves that it just might be ok to go to the mall wearing a collar and leash, how the heck can we expect to get any kind of backing toward legalized poly, same-sex marriage, holding parties in our own homes without fear of raids, (insert various political agenda here).
quote:



Expecting us all to agree amongst ourselves is one of the most amusing things I've read in this thread. Kinksters are not a homogenous entity that share one big, giant head. I think it would be pretty darn boring if we always agreed amongst ourselves. I just don't see this as the big issue some others do. Whether or not it is acceptable in public isn't of concern to me. I can be collared to someone and subservient to them without any outwardly overt signs of it. I can go to a restaurat and serve without it being a public display. If others feel the need for that kind of external validation then they are free to fight for that. However, expecting me to believe this is of some benefit to me is ridiculous. 



OnyxGoddess -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 6:08:35 AM)

well...whether we like it or not our choices about what kids are exposed to are being taken away from us on a daily basis.  I for one do not flaunt my breasts or backside around.  but damned if these freaking women dont do it at the mall with the "titty" shirt and the shorts that have their bottoms hanging out of thier pants.  But do we say anything?  Hell we're bombarded by the victorias secrets scantily clad models day in day out...do we say anything?  and we in the bdsm community are complaining about children seeing a leash when they see bare flesh all day long.  give me a leash over t & a anyday.  I'd rather explain a leash and peircings anyday over why a woman has to be damn near naked to sell a product.



temptressofsouls -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 6:13:49 AM)

Agreed, Onyx



truesub4u -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 6:17:00 AM)

At first I was for most part agreeing with the Do Nots about this situation. But after talking to my own about this.... and helping them fight in school right now for their rights to freedom of expression with in reason... I got to say.. I'm not agreeing much no more. My oldest is in a lawsuit...(Not for money.. but for being forced to call me to bring another shirt or being kicked outta school) for wearing a Rock Band T-Shirt to school. The Rock Group is H.I.M. On the front it had a Heartagram. A Heart in a Triangle in a Circle..... on the back... the bands tour concert information. One of her teachers demanded it was a pentagram. Which in his eyes is a symbol of blood sacrifice and murder... while barking at me... wearing his Crusifix .... not just a cross... but Jesus on the cross.  After doing back ground on this... (Besides liking the bands Heartagram) which represents love and hate..... not blood sacrifice and murder...... I got to say.... i'm standing behind her on this. She expressed herself... and now is being punished for it. And yes I do see it the same.... because of self expression... no acts of lewdness... sexuality.... just preferance. When I got to the school.... and after talking to this offended teacher... I looked at my gal and said... Up to you... you can change.... or we'll deal with the cards that fall.... Because I refused to FORCE her to change... the school called their lawyers (School board and all) and after over an hour of coversations... she still had shirt on when I left the school.... leaving her there. (The lawsuit is because of threatening to expel her if she wore it or anthing like it again).  Needless to say... the following Monday... as this happened on a Friday.... there were at least 100+ kids who wore H.I.M and SlipNot and other rock band shirts in school. None of them lewd.... showing skin.... breaking any school rules over dress code. And from looks over it... over the weekend... a lot went to this SAME mall.... and purchased pentagram and heartagram necklaces... earrings.. wristbands.. t-shirts.... and buttons for shirts... to show their support for her standing up for herself in her rights to be able to express herself .... WITHIN REASON. And no were're not talking high school here... she'll have that battle next year.

My point with this..... I believe in protecting the innocence of childhood.... but at same time.. while protecting their innocence.. not teaching them.... to hide themselves...be forced into hiding...because if I don't teach them to stand up for their rights... some asshole do gooder is ging to come along... and they won't have no rights left... because someone gets offended....if that's the worse thing to happen to someone... they should be damn lucky. I'm not showing her she has to force it down someones throat daily.... i'm showing her... that if TODAY she feels like dressing Gothic... (Bad example she does this daily).... but either way... I'm showing her that it's ok to be who you are. I've warned her others will pick on her.... say mean things to her... shy away from her.... be offended... but it shouldn't stop her from expressing herself and being who she is.  I even went so far to tell her that if she allowed herself to lead around with a collar and leash by her boy/girl friend... expect the same.... hell she might even get a laugh outta me because I presonaly think it's funny and something I wouldn't do. But all because I wouldn't.... why do I have to judge others.  Hell when one gets offended... it's only for a few moments... hours.. even a day... but it's not life altering.

Now i'm not giving her permission to do out nude... have sex... do drugs.... shoot no damn one.... as I said... this is WITHIN REASON.... and in this situation at the mall..... It's WITHIN REASON...



mistoferin -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 6:30:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vancouver_cinful

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Would you walk into a church during Sunday morning services wearing a T-shirt that says "I only worship Satan"?

Would you walk into an all black event wearing a T-shirt that says " I hate N_ _ _ _ _ s"?

Would you walk into a gay bar with a shirt that says "Homos deserve to die"?

Just a few examples but if you answered no to the above, why would then think it would be ok to flaunt your kink in a predominantly vanilla setting?


Maybe because the above statements/behaviours are about hate and intolerance. Just how does wearing a collar and a leash compare to expressing hate and supporting intolerance?

Cin


Well Cin, I know the examples I used are on the more extreme end....at least they are for me...and obviously they are for you too. But I would bet that for a satanist...or a racist...or a homophobic....those issues are not extreme.... probably not anymore extreme than collars and leashes are to you. I bet they feel they have every right to "express" themselves just as you do. It's in the perspective...your perspective is that they are hateful and intolerant, most people would likely agree, including myself. But there is also a part of the population that may see people wearing collars and leashes as being as on the same level as devil's spawn. It is easy for us to look at others and say that they are being intolerant...but when we make judgements on the things that they feel passionately about or the ways that they choose to express themselves...well, don't you think that is just a tad hypocritical? We all have our intolerances.

I don't expect anyone to have the same values or ideals as myself. We are all individuals. That's why societal norms ARE important. If we demand to be tolerated or embraced for the things that we feel passionately about, you can bet the farm that someone else will too...and what do we do when that someone feels passionately about something we don't agree with?

There are alot of people in this country that think that marijuana should be legal and feel very passionately about it...would you think that the local junior high school school or the local shopping mall where minors of influential age gather would be an appropriate place for them to voice or express their views? It really is a matter of right place~right time and doing what is considered appropriate for the environment you are in. When searching for employment, the way you dress for a job interview is relative to the employment you seek. There are accepted "norms". So if you are a biker and you decide to show up for a job interview for an executive position in a professional accounting firm wearing all your leathers and smelling like 80 weight....would you expect management to "overlook" it and offer you the position? No of course not, we all have to conduct ourselves appropriate to the individual situation.

quote:

  And so you think by supporting the status quo, things will eventually get better all on their own? Maybe no one should ever rock the societal boat, at all? After all, women got the vote by being quiet and waiting for society to say it was ok, didn't they? Black people gained human rights by never stepping into Whites Only public areas...right?

Gees, just because it's always been that way doesn't make it right to keep on doing it. Social evolution demands risk-taking.



No, you miss my point. If you want to make a stand, by all means make it. If you feel passionately about dying your face blue and having your ears reshaped into pig ears...do so. But....once you do that, don't be shocked when people stare and don't accept you and are intolerant. If you want to make yourself stand out from the crowds you have to accept the responsibility of the reaction that goes along with that.




Patrick2005 -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 6:57:48 AM)

I've been involved in bdsm in varying degrees for over 20 years, but it has only been within the last 5 that I realized that there was a "bdsm community" (that's when I first got on the internet).  One of my more interesting discoveries is that   1: As a whole, we are a lot more responsible and caring about other people than the rest of the world realizes; and 2: It doesn't matter. We'll never get credit for being sane and responsible- the public is gonna think we are freaks no matter what we do. 

Another important fact that bears on how we perceive other people's actions or kinks is that what I do is ok, but what you do is always suspect, and certainly wrong if it differs too much from what I do.  That's human nature. 

In principle, I like the argument that I have no right to expose anyone to anything they didn't consent to, or to involve others in my kink without their approval.  Of course, it is one of those ivory tower, feel good ideas that just doesn't work in the real world, but that doesn't mean it isn't a worthy goal. 

I think what we really do is to try not to offend too many people, and certainly not the ones who have power over our lives in some way.  That's also human nature, I guess.  That way, the people who are offended are themselves the freaks- not the ones who did the offending deed. 

We have offended people three times that I know of, with public bdsm symbols/behaviors.  Twice, it was because my wife was wearing a collar (no leash).  One was a plain leather dog collar; another a chain collar with a small padlock.  Both of these incidents were in restaurants.  The third incident was when we were standing in a checkout line in a store.  Wife asked me for permission to go and look at something (she asks for permission to leave my presence), and the woman in front of us in line was offended. 

I've seen people being walked on leashes on a couple of occasions where there was no public uproar.  One was in a mall in Atlanta, and another at a rennaissance festival.  Interestingly, I think both were goth rather than bdsm.  Maybe that is in line with the idea that bdsm is a sexual thing, but goth is not. 

Of course, weddings are the biggest celebrations of sex and sexuality we have in our society, and they are often rather public.  Strange world we live in. 



Chaingang -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 7:17:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u
One of her teachers demanded it was a pentagram.


And...?

See, that's the crux of it right there. What if your child was actually a practicing Satanist?

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html
http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/NineStatements.html

Wouldn't she hypothetically have the right to express her religious preference in the exact same manner as does the teacher with the dangling Jesus on the cross thing? If not, why not?

Many people will tell you the U.S. is a "Christian" nation. It isn't. There is no official state religion - instead we have religious freedom. The Founding Fathers were Deists:

...

Deism: [1]deúism. noun. The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion . . . has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble."
-- Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles March 9, 1790

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
-- Benjamin Franklin, in Toward The Mystery

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-- James Madison, letter to William Bradford April 1, 1774

"The Christian god can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew, Peter Carr

"The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, July 5, 1814

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of . . . Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"...denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian."
-- Ethan Allen, Reason the Only Oracle of Man

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religous opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
-- Joel Barlow, Article 11 of the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the US and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, written during Washington's administration, ratified during Adams' administration.

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
-- John Adams

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html



Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 7:37:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EbonyFtshGoddess

Vancouver_cinful
quote:

Littering is against the law and creates environmental damage. I hardly think wearing a collar and a leash in public is quite the same thing.


you missed my point love.. i'm not saying it's illegal.. i'm saying it's TACKY.. just like it's TACKY trashy fuckers that litter.. and tacky trashy fuckers drag others on leashes at the mall..

just like i pick up litter.. i would be stuck picking up the litter of having to explain to my child why  what's-her-face is on a leash in a mall.

follow me here.


Oh I follow you, I just don't agree. There are lots of tacky things your child gets exposed to in a day and some would say that seeing you dressed in rubber is right up there. Some would disagree.

We can't control everything a child is exposed to, so we use it as a golden opportunity to teach our morals and beliefs to our children, not by pretending it doesn't exist.

quote:


where i live i see people wearing PVC or leather all day.. my rubber is no different.. pair that with my rubber AND a slave.. yeah.. motherfuckers would have a problem and i wouldn't mind it..



And if those "motherfuckers" did have a problem with it? If they didn't want their kids exposed to a woman wearing rubber because they thought it was immoral?

And what about vegans having to explain to their kids when they see people decked out in leather.

My point is, it takes all kinds to make a world, and it takes a hell of a lot of tolerance to have a safe world.

You're right, we'll just have to disagree on this because I still don't see the harm in collars and leashes in public, I'm more offended by seeing teenage boys wearing t-shirts that say "muff-diver" or "To all you virgins, thanks for nothing!".

Cin



TolerableCruelty -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 7:39:05 AM)

I'm going to try and make this as short as possible, because I usually attempt to get straight to the point of what I'm thinking in whatever thread I happen to be posting on.

I, for one, make no attempt at all to conceal what or who I am, to anyone.... now, I don't run around wearing a Tshirt saying "Hi, I'm a Gorean Sadist !!" and tell pretty girls on the street how delicious they'd look restrained while I whip them black and blue... but I do prominently display the BDSM symbol in tattoo form on the inside of My left forearm, My girl instantly heels and avoids eye contact when in public with Me, and she also calls Me Master in public.

This is who I am... its who I've been for the last 8 years... I'm not about to change... ever. period.

and if I decided that I felt like snapping a leash upon her steel collar (which isn't removable by her, btw, and is worn 24/7) and leading her out in public... whether it be to the mall, fill up the car with fuel, or grab a Big Mac at Mickey D's... I will be god damned if ANYONE would tell Me I wasn't allowed to do it, as I in no way, shape, or form.. ever make a public scene about it.

I do what I do, but even in public, I keep to Myself when I do it.

T.R.

p.s.
she's also using this account, and I'm sure she'll be leaving a much longer post upon this subject than I've just written.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 8:20:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

...There are alot of people in this country that think that marijuana should be legal and feel very passionately about it...would you think that the local junior high school school or the local shopping mall where minors of influential age gather would be an appropriate place for them to voice or express their views?...


love ya' erin!!!  however,...this slave will have to disagree with you and answer that question with a big fat YES.  What a fantastic opportunity to teach unmentionables about how laws are made in response to the voice of the people. The Compassionate Use Act of 1996 is an important state law.  But then, she is one of those people who feel very passionately about it and also about giving youth as much information as possible. When is it ever better to have LESS information or only one viewpoint?
 
run <rant>
For far too long, "Reefer Madness"-type propaganda has been keeping medicine out of the hands of sick people.  Marijuana is currently being used medicinally by people over AND under the age of 18, in accordance with 11 state's laws.  There are pediatricians(Dr. Claudia Jensen, for one) prescribing it and seeing positive results from it, as an alternative to the toxic chemicals the pharmeceutical companies are peddling--you know the toxic crap this slave is talking about that comes with the disclaimer that it might actually lead your unmentionable to suicide instead of peace of mind?
end <rant>



meatcleaver -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 8:32:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

There are alot of people in this country that think that marijuana should be legal and feel very passionately about it...would you think that the local junior high school school or the local shopping mall where minors of influential age gather would be an appropriate place for them to voice or express their views?


My eldest daughter lives in Holland and on dance night you always find a gang of school kids gathered around the entrance door smoking marijuana because smoking of anything isn't allowed inside. It's surprising how many kids can't be bothered with it, it's not that much fun when it is all but legal and you can buy it from legal outlets. Less Dutch kids use it than British so there is a lesson there as for everything else such as a leash, as I try to get this back on topic.



mistoferin -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 8:48:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

...There are alot of people in this country that think that marijuana should be legal and feel very passionately about it...would you think that the local junior high school school or the local shopping mall where minors of influential age gather would be an appropriate place for them to voice or express their views?...


love ya' erin!!!  however,...this slave will have to disagree with you and answer that question with a big fat YES.  What a fantastic opportunity to teach unmentionables about how laws are made in response to the voice of the people. The Compassionate Use Act of 1996 is an important state law.  But then, she is one of those people who feel very passionately about it and also about giving youth as much information as possible. When is it ever better to have LESS information or only one viewpoint?
 
run <rant>
For far too long, "Reefer Madness"-type propaganda has been keeping medicine out of the hands of sick people.  Marijuana is currently being used medicinally by people over AND under the age of 18, in accordance with 11 state's laws.  There are pediatricians(Dr. Claudia Jensen, for one) prescribing it and seeing positive results from it, as an alternative to the toxic chemicals the pharmeceutical companies are peddling--you know the toxic crap this slave is talking about that comes with the disclaimer that it might actually lead your unmentionable to suicide instead of peace of mind?
end <rant>


Well actually beth...and by the way...you know I love ya too....you can't disagree with me because I never made a statement as to what my personal opinion is on the subject, I merely posed a question. I will say that on a personal note, I am one who believes that marijuana SHOULD be legalized...and that is coming from an ex substance abuse counselor. But my opinion on it really doesn't matter. I know others feel strongly against having their children "educated" by me and my personal beliefs on the subject so therefore I don't do it.

But see, people get so caught up in the particulars that they get blinded to the concept. Take the word marijuana out and replace it with whatever word YOU personally find to be offensive. You can make it anything you want. Methamphetamine, anti-semitism, racism....you name it, the list of possibilities is endless. You can say I would not mind someone exposing my children to that...but as parents, most of us have SOMETHING that we don't want our kids exposed to. The people who are standing up for THAT SOMETHING feel just as adamantly opposed to our intolerance of it as we do to theirs about the things WE believe in.



truesub4u -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 9:05:34 AM)

Well Chaingang.... that's the argument... she is wican.... she does wear her pentagram NOW... because of the t-shirt situation... i'm frowned upon because I allow my girls to explore who they want to be... oh well.. such is life.. I do hope this is just a faze... even with my oldest dating girls... not boys... but if not... and it's who they are... then so be it... with my full support as well. 



MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 9:24:38 AM)

I haven't made any comments re: being concerned about what my children might see while we're out in public so I'm not sure if this message was supposed to be in response to me or not. As a parent I realize there are a tonne of things I can't protect my kids from and I don't agree with the "Think of the children!" mentality that attempts to use kids as an excuse to curtail the personal freedom of adults. Nowhere in this thread have I said I don't want my kids exposed to this kind of thing in public. All of my comments have centered around general social conventions and values, not specifically about the well being of children.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess

well...whether we like it or not our choices about what kids are exposed to are being taken away from us on a daily basis.  I for one do not flaunt my breasts or backside around.  but damned if these freaking women dont do it at the mall with the "titty" shirt and the shorts that have their bottoms hanging out of thier pants.  But do we say anything?  Hell we're bombarded by the victorias secrets scantily clad models day in day out...do we say anything?  and we in the bdsm community are complaining about children seeing a leash when they see bare flesh all day long.  give me a leash over t & a anyday.  I'd rather explain a leash and peircings anyday over why a woman has to be damn near naked to sell a product.



MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 9:25:56 AM)

I get your point because it's precisely the point I've been trying to make as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
No, you miss my point. If you want to make a stand, by all means make it. If you feel passionately about dying your face blue and having your ears reshaped into pig ears...do so. But....once you do that, don't be shocked when people stare and don't accept you and are intolerant. If you want to make yourself stand out from the crowds you have to accept the responsibility of the reaction that goes along with that.



MsIncognito -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 9:30:56 AM)

But when we're talking about society as a whole not just our own families and homes who's to say what is WITHIN REASON? What one person might consider quite reasonable (like snapping a leash on your slave and leading them about in the mall) is just as reasonable to someone else? That's the whole point of having generally accepted societal standards. While I could care less if someone leads another about by a collar I think we're all smart enough to know that this is not WITHIN REASON for the general public.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u
Now i'm not giving her permission to do out nude... have sex... do drugs.... shoot no damn one.... as I said... this is WITHIN REASON.... and in this situation at the mall..... It's WITHIN REASON...



ClassAct2006 -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 9:33:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassAct2006
The test in English law is whether there might be breach of the peace caused. So if a woman walks around topless and that would cause offence to others who might then cause a fight then she can be stopped, even if we think female nudity is fine. What matters legally is how others perceive it, I think. If you apply the test to this situation then they were rightfully asked to leave. I think that works fine as a test in practice.


No, it doesn't act as a "fine test in practice." It aligns with idiotic ideas like "She was asking for it" as a defense against a rape charge when a woman wears something too revealing. If I by no positive act on my part supposedly "cause" others to behave idiotically - I think they are to blame and not I. It's not rational for someone to argue that I was wearing a piece of jewelry that drove them crazy.


I like the English law test. It works. It's stood the test of time. It would mean in England in a shopping mall you could wear leathers but you couldn't walk naked whereas on the beach you could be topless but no in a church. So you take the standards of the people you're amongst. It's a workable framework.

Also parents can choose where they take their children. I never take mine shopping because I don't like the materialism and time wasting of it. I don't like those values. I might however choose to take them to a nudist beach because I don't have hangups about the naked body.



MoonGoddessIsis -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 9:55:12 AM)

I personally think it was the Dominants responsibility to not put their submissives in that spot in the first place.  As many have stated to Me it is a form on PDA.  To some point PDA does not bother Me but in this form I believe that it would.

Lady Moon



EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... (5/3/2006 10:03:57 AM)

quote:


Oh I follow you, I just don't agree. There are lots of tacky things your child gets exposed to in a day and some would say that seeing you dressed in rubber is right up there. Some would disagree.

We can't control everything a child is exposed to, so we use it as a golden opportunity to teach our morals and beliefs to our children, not by pretending it doesn't exist


my son isn't shown heavy SM.. and me wearing rubber is no different than me wearing leather jeans instead of rubber ones..

of course i can't expect to shield him from the world. but SOME things are appropriate to do in SOME places. that's why we have DECENCY laws. i can't piss in public. i can't fuck in public.. and i can't show my tits in public (unless i'm in NYC, i believe they passed a law where women can go topless too a few years back.)

no one is saying they don't have a RIGHT to do it.. i'm saying go for it. just don't be shocked when people want to kick their asses or at least rip them a new one or kick them out like the mall security did.. this is NOT the way to get BDSM respected... if i were in europe or germany.. yeah, someone leashed wouldn't probably bat an eye. also, their billboards show tits and they can curse on TV pretty much..

this didn't happen in germany, it happened here in the US and the US for the most part is staunch on it's puritanical ideals.

what would a mother say in that case of the mall?.. um honey.. well, she was on a leash because uh uh.. well.. they like BDSM and shes his slave?.. can you IMAGINE the follow up questions??

shit i didnt even know what to tell my son when he pointed to his nuts and asked "what are these for?".. i was like.. um. umm.. well they're used for.. well you need to make... umm.. ok.. just ask your dad.

i couldn't IMAGINE the follow-up questions he'd ask me about seeing someone leashed!

quote:

And if those "motherfuckers" did have a problem with it? If they didn't want their kids exposed to a woman wearing rubber because they thought it was immoral?

And what about vegans having to explain to their kids when they see people decked out in leather.


once again we're taking things to extremes to prove an ordinary point. of course kids are going to be exposed to things day to day.. doesn't mean it has to start at FOUR. if my son could read a tshirt that said "muff diver" that's different than a four year old not being able to read and seeing someone leashed when typically ANIMALS are leashed.

leashing does two things:

it shows ownership

and it dehumanizes the leashed one (or it can show pride in being owned)..

people can show pride all they want.. but will i piss on my slave in public because it takes all types to make the world go 'round?

i personally hate clothing.. ok fuck it.. i'm gonna walk around naked as a jay bird.

screw what someone's children may feel or what someone else may feel.

yeah you can't placate EVERYONE.. but people that do certain things just because they want to be different and "rock the boat".. to me is puerile rebellion.

still.. at the end of the day i respect civil liberties.. do what you want.. and i'll have to handle it accordingly at home.. i just personally feel it's tacky to do it.

after i heard that kid once as her mom "why is he on a leash?" i thought.. hmm ok.

society is held together by a very thin veil of unspoken rules.

if we all agree that BDSM is definitely an extension of our sexuality.. how is that any different than screwing outdoors?

alternative clothing isn't foisting fetishes on people.. gaelyn and cianfarani are my FAVOURITE haute rubber couture from NYC... i dare you to find anything distateful in their collections.. my son can see rubber *streetwear* but that's different than him seeing me in a rubber fuck suit. just like it's different for someone to see a couple kissing than one leading others on a leash.

http://www.gaelyn.com/lookbook/spring04/1.php

they have an extensive rubber line..and it's ALL tasteful.. nothing i wouldn't see on melrose.

http://www.gaelyn.com/materials.php  not ONE mention of fetish in the material list.

someone on a leash in public?.. that SCREAMS fetish.

we're not saying that people CAN'T do it.. just some things should be really thought about before you do it. it's not the adults that anyone cares about (although i can respect their views too).. but it's mainly the children i worry about.

like i said, if my son doesn't see my slaves on leashes (and we have a poly situation)..

then i dont think it's cool for others to. i don't have that oh god go call the FCC because i saw janet jackson's tit on the halftime show. but should people take their kinks out of the bedroom? i feel not.

but i'll play devils advocate once again- i know some people that feel gay couples shouldn't express public affection and here it's very common, my son grew up with it, i grew up with seeing openly gay couples and he doesn't question it. i KNOW he'd question why someone is on a leash.. so i see both sides..

personally i think it's not right to put parents in the position of explaining things when there are more than enough ways to show subtle and even outwardly subtle dominance over a person rather than leashing them



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