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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 7:53:13 PM   
Termyn8or


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taz, if I wanted more guns I would go to a couple of bars on the lower east side. The "gun show" is in the Men's room or the parking lot.

T^T

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 7:53:28 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Gun Control Act of 1968


There could be several complications with that - 1st & most obvious, you have to establish that Congress intended those statutes for the purpose of relating to the 2nd amendment, not something else - 2nd, you can't modify the constitution with a statute - courts are likely to say, so what?  Last, they could relate to weapons restrictions as far as they're reasonable regulation, just as say copyright etc may limit free speech.

It gets back to people complaining that they have a constitutional right to bear arms without understanding that there are reasonable limits to every constitutional provision, and when you're talking about firearms, probably any legislature can come up with a reasonable purpose to do about anything they want - simply because it's fairly obvious that any firearm deserving of the name can kill a person in a fraction of a second.   We're not talking about speculative or indirect damages.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 7:58:45 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

How about making the resale of weapons from individuals to individuals illegal.


An unspoken reality is that every law faces 2 problems - 1st, what is the standard, and 2nd, what is the budget?

Standards are fairly easy, but priorities are not.  It's just as stupid to ignore enforcement, as to over-enforce, ie be anal about catching the last person at the expense of more important issues.

This is one of the common fallacies of the NRA, crying that the DA only has to enforce the laws on the books, when they fail to realize that is more an economic issue than anything else.

I like to see good judgment in people who are armed, and I don't see a whole lot of that in the NRA lobby.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 8:03:54 PM   
Termyn8or


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Oh, they're killing people now ?

T^T

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 8:31:01 PM   
jack8007


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<<Forget banning sales and transfers>>    That's not my suggestion.   Enacting a law is only the beginning - it's got to be easily enforced, and it has to get the results you want, because it has the sanctions or remedies that solve the problem.   

Gun regulation has a lot of the same problems drug regulation has.   People want them, they will get them.   What you want is to increase the probability that they aren't going to be in the wrong hands, ie., people who don't have the IQ of their weapon.   That is what depresses me about the NRA - they elect people who say things that make a rock sound smart.  Eg, they think that denial of the problem solves it.

<<laws do not affect the lawless.>>  true but the 2nd is to realize that no criminal can hide forever.  A lot of it is percentages, as any sheriff will tell you.

<< The gun "license" comes with say a highschool diploma, or equivalency. You have to know how to handle them safely and know how to shoot them as well. E v e r y b o d y .>>

Look, schools don't have the resources to teach many more critical subjects.   You graduate from high school, your idea of the law of the land, the rules of the game, is nothing more than what you pick up on TV.  Most kids can't participate in athletics, there's no driver's ed, and some kids graduate functionally illiterate.   Yes, I'd like everybody to know how to use a weapon, and I'd like everybody to know how to calculate compound interest, or recover a spin, but it's not going to happen.  Priorities, again something the NRA lobby never seems to understand, which is one of the best arguments I see for just disarm them all.

You want to learn to use a weapon, you go where they use them.

<<So in populated areas, it should be prohibited to FIRE such high powered weapons because of the collateral damage they may inflict. You can have whatever you want, but don't shoot it in town. high explosive BTW are not included in the deal.>>

It gets back to the cost of regulation.   You really don't need any new laws to sanction destruction, both criminal and civil.

<<if you are a 6'7" crackhead and you want my 5'6" 70 year old Mother's money, wouldn't it be nice if she had a gun>>  I don't know.  Is she medicated?  For what?  Can she hold a group, or is she going to hit the Girl Scout instead of the crackhead?

Now the crackhead may be stupid enough to walk up in front of her, but most criminals won't give her that chance, they'll come up behind her.  Armed people in the Tucson crowd did Giffords no good, and armed Secret Service agents did neither Reagan nor Kennedy any good.

And how much do you want to bet there are more women under psychiatric medication in the USA, than there are crackheads?  No, I'm not at all sure granny needs a gun.  I'll walk her to the bus before I trust her not to shoot the wrong target.

<< Good luck and smile, you're on candid camera.>>  Security cameras may in fact do more to get criminals off the street than anything.   I think the TSA is the biggest waste and boondoggle that bin Laden could ever have wished on us, but I don't see how a security camera violates the 4th amendment unless it's in the bathroom.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 9:52:41 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

taz, if I wanted more guns I would go to a couple of bars on the lower east side. The "gun show" is in the Men's room or the parking lot.

T^T


As a fellow Clevelander, if I were you I would stay away from the lower east side.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/1/2011 10:27:09 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

With transfer of weapons, when we require a dealer to resell a weapon for you, then you can not pass down heirlooms.   Like the cap and ball 58 cal enfield that I got when my father died.

I still have no problem with registration tho.



Sure you can...it may require a small fee even if through probate that’s all...a small price to pay.

I don’t believe the …give an inch and they will take a mile...or the too much paper work and it will not be enforced...excuses. These attitudes will not solve gun crime and in the end may cause even more stringent laws to be passed.

Butch


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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 12:20:01 AM   
SexyBossyBBW


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One handgun (with no more than 10 bullets), stored at home, unless you have a security/police job.   Not all cops should have guns IMO.   Hunting riffles, at home, or at hunting grounds.   I hate guns, and violence.   However, I think it's perfectly okay, to shoot someone who forces self into your home, to steal or hurt you/your family.     M

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:20:38 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
quote:

The Second Amendment
As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


If you notice, the 2nd Amendment does not specify what kind of arms one can or cannot own, therefore, you should have the legal right to own whatever type of firearm you want, up to and including automatic and burst fire weapons.

Under the law, anything that disqualifies you as a voter or juror prevents you from owning a gun.

Now, I have a hard time believing that career criminals have obtained guns from a licensed dealer or sporting goods store.

Now I am a democrat but I believe in the right to keep and use firearms. I enjoy hunting, and can frequently be found on a range.

Now, since there is no way under the constitution that the right to own guns is going to be removed, how about some sensible suggestions dealing with regulating or making it possible for law enforcement personnel to trace a weapon that may have been used in a crime.


Your assuming of course, that the 2nd Amendment implies without restriction or 'shadow of a doubt' that arms are for the sole purpose(s) of individuals, and not, "well regulated militias". Not all arms are firearms, but all firearms are arms. Likewise, a militia in 1776 terms is EXTREMELY different from its defination in 2011.

We have 'well regulated militias' right now: Local Police Officers, State Troopers, Sheriffs, F.B.I., C.I.A., N.S.A., ICE, National Guard, US Marshals, and the USGC. Lets not forget in a time of comflict or disaster, the US Military can step in (and used sparingly) to handle law enforcement. Each of these groups from local to federal, meet the defination of 'a well regulated militia'. They have rules, held to laws, and are well trained in their profession.

Back in 1776, the local law enforcement was non-existant at best. To help keep 'law and order' as the prevailing course of the day, states were allowed to have militias in their towns/counties to keep brigands, thieves, indians, and other assorted evils as bay. The common citizen, had the best professional infantry weapon of the day: a musket (un-rifled too). Was it implied in the 2nd Amendment that the common citizen be granted access to military grade weapons and ammo? That's a very good question, since if it does, the very rich people (of today's terms) will be able to arm small armies that 'lord' over a given area.

The National Rifle Assocation (NRA) has for over thirty years, tried to imply the 2nd Amendment grants firearm rights to the common citizen. Not only that, but an unlimited right/access to all arms (as long as there firearms). Who does the NRA really represent in the USA? Not the common citizen or the 2nd Amendment. They represent the gun industry plain and simple. The gun industry, like every other industry, needs to make a profit by selling products and services to US Citizens. Does it help the gun indstry if the common citizen is given 'limited access' or 'unlimited access'? So it could be argued the NRA has an obvious bias that has nothing to do with individual citizens or the 2nd Amendment, couldn't it?

Trying to craft a universal law on arms in 1776 was extremely simple compared to 2011. Back then, people did not look for loopholes and ways to 'skirt the law' for the most part. In 'today terms' that happens with every law BEFORE its put into effect. And people still find loopholes afterward. People in 2011 are extremely more complex then 1776. What we understand of the world, the land, science, economics, and even 'The Law' was completely beyond the wildest imaginations of folks in 1776. What would the Signers of the US Constitution have said of the USA as it exists today, on the subject of firearms?

So yes, trying to craft laws that apply equally to all persons under the law (as it pertains to arms), is about as easy as creating a second Earth that is within the travel distance of say....Mars. A person on a farm far from the city will have different needs/uses for a firearm then an inner city young adult trying to resist gangs. People have firearms for a whole host of different reasons, not just for self defense.

How would one define a 'Military Arm' that should or shouldn't be accessable to common citizens? How about 'Military grade ammo'? The questions are easy, the answers that lead to a solution of legislation are nearly impossible.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:24:08 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Regulate gun shows. Require private sellers to run background checks.


How about pawn shops while you're at that one?

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:29:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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In the states I lived in, as far as I know, they are also required to do background checks.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:30:21 AM   
Moonhead


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Mea culpa: I didn't know that. Always thought they wouldn't arse about with that...

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:32:59 AM   
tazzygirl


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Lets say you pawn your own gun... and you want to repay the loan and get your gun back... some pawn shops will still run a background check... even for your own gun.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:38:21 AM   
Moonhead


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That's not to be sniffed at, then.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:43:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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In 2005, Michael Bouchard, Assistant Director/Field Operations of ATF, estimated that 5,000 gun shows take place each year in the United States.[3] Most gun shows have 2,500 to 15,000 attendees over a two-day period.[1] The number of tables at a gun show varies from as few as fifty to as many as 2,000.[2] At the largest gun shows, over 1,000 firearms are sold over two days.[1]

Here is the differences in the state laws...

Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Five states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner.[14][15]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show



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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:48:57 AM   
Moonhead


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Patchy, then.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 5:59:07 AM   
tazzygirl


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Very. And easy for someone who isnt supposed too, by law, have possession of a firearm to get one.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 6:33:36 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

I hold a FFDL.


No you don't.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 6:35:15 AM   
tazzygirl


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How do you know?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 6:39:24 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

But those developed after, including automatics, are iffy because it could be argued that they weren't intended to be covered.


You don't think that argument has been made? And rejected?
That makes as much sense to me as saying laser-printed books are not covered by the 1st Amendment.
If it's useful as a militia weapon.......

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

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