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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 10:25:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 10:31:58 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheMooose

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Myself I would favour banning all firearms


Uh, but you are Canadian...I am guessing you do not think even your police, or army, should have weapons and from the looks of your defense budget that day is coming fast.

what a ridiculous statement


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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 2:32:13 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

I won't join the NRA because they are not extreme enough


Good for you.   Is your interest your business, or your fear, or what combination?

Do you plan to hold a gun on the sheriff when he comes with his guns to drag you into court to answer some bullshit like why your car isn't insured?   Or do you just like to feel your guns?  Or just talk about them?

Guns are obviously the answer to these problems, and the more guns the better.  We need to get back to the traditional machine gun battalions of WW2.   You never have to worry about ammunition, because it will always be there, right?



The law that pisses me off the most in minnesota (this is not a federal law) is a permit to carry is only valid if you are not drunk.
And ffl or no ffl, outside the biz I gotta have the permit.

When the fuck do these jackasses think I want to cakk somebody?

It's like Obama is taking my guns away.

Happiness is a warm gun.

A joint venture of John Lennon and Wayne LaPierre

real answer: business and personal.  I pawn, buy and sell as part of the pawnshop. I live in minnesota (ex-vet) and I have a few shotguns, rifles and pistols...just fer giggles and occasional hunting.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 3/2/2011 2:34:41 PM >

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 2:41:10 PM   
mnottertail


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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 2:53:26 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

The Second Amendment
As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

As ratified by the States:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


If you notice, the 2nd Amendment does not specify what kind of arms one can or cannot own, therefore, you should have the legal right to own whatever type of firearm you want, up to and including automatic and burst fire weapons.

Under the law, anything that disqualifies you as a voter or juror prevents you from owning a gun.

Now, I have a hard time believing that career criminals have obtained guns from a licensed dealer or sporting goods store.

Now I am a democrat but I believe in the right to keep and use firearms. I enjoy hunting, and can frequently be found on a range.

Now, since there is no way under the constitution that the right to own guns is going to be removed, how about some sensible suggestions dealing with regulating or making it possible for law enforcement personnel to trace a weapon that may have been used in a crime.


what a mixed up hodge podge of shit.

you cant even keep your terms straight.

make up your mind!

Is it legal or lawful eh?   do you even know the difference?  Its not necesarily legal to own arms but it is lawful to own arms.  figger it out LOL


then you go to fire-arms and guns all different terms with different meanings when the LAW states ARMS,

not fucking guns, not fucking firearms, not pea shooters.  ARMS!

arms n 1: weapons considered collectively [syn: weaponry, implements of war, weapons system, munition]

That means that I can lawfully have a nuke and most people do not know it but you can buy nukes if you want up to 143 kiloton if I remember correctly for a cool million or so.

I suppose I am the only one out here with the brains to catch all your erroneous bcrap.

last time I checked a nuke was both a weapon and an arm.





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/2/2011 3:09:49 PM >

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 2:54:32 PM   
mnottertail


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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 3:36:13 PM   
IceDemeter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Myself I would favour banning all firearms


Hello Arpig (and anyone else with this thought!),

May I ask why you would be in favour of this? I'm not trying to be argumentative with you - I sincerely would like to know your reasoning.

I personally used to be phobic of firearms (to the point of hysteria and fainting just by touching one), and have recently defeated that phobia. I defeated it by acquiring knowledge, so that a firearm, to me, is no longer something to fear.

I personally am in favour of the current Canadian requirement that all persons wishing to own or use a firearm pass a safety test (yes, I took the course for non-restricted firearms and hold a PAL) for the same reasons that I am in favour of a basic safety requirement for vehicles and boats.

I personally have no issue with their being different levels of safety courses required for different types of firearms - it makes a lot of sense to me.

However, looking at the current Canadian registration system, I have to admit to not seeing the usefulness of the registration of long guns (rifles and shotguns), while I do see a huge cost to the taxpayer. These long guns are simply tools used by many, many people on a daily basis in order to control varmint populations and to protect humans and livestock from predators.

I also have to shake my head when looking at the current law where restricted firearms, such as handguns, may only be discharged at a range approved for their use (with exceptions for certain professions). For many who work in open or back country, attack by large wild animals is a constant possibility. A handgun can be brought in to action far more quickly than a long gun if self-defense is required. This particular law actually puts these people at more risk.

As I said, I'm very curious as to your reasoning on wishing for a total ban. I'm also curious as to what you would recommend as a replacement tool for those who currently use firearms on a regular basis to keep their farmland productive and protect themselves and their livestock.

To me, the regulation of at least safety courses for all prospective firearm purchasers and users is very reasonable. Restrictions on who can take the courses does also make sense, along the same lines as restrictions on who can get a driver's license. When it comes to registrations and regulating types and sizes of firearms - well, it's always good for a lively debate, and I can't honestly say I am sure yet of what side of that debate I'm on!

Thanks to all for their opinions - it is a fun subject!

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 3:50:11 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		As has been proved in countries where the legal ownership of firearms is illegal, it doesnt stop the criminals from having guns.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 4:11:38 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

real answer: business and personal


Honest to god, I think the NRA is helping sell America down the river, because they're distracting from the real robbers.

How often does anybody get held up in your neighborhood?    However often it is, does it cause 10% of the losses your neighborhood suffers from financial scams by privateers?  Like the mortgage meltdown?   You might not be that affected up there, but I'll tell you, the blue collar areas of CA, Las Vegas & AZ were just about shut DOWN.  

And what I mean is that nobody (apart from a few idiots on Oprah) cares about hunters' guns, and judges & cops are grateful when somebody defends themselves successfully and saves them the trouble.

But spreading weapons around without any thought to who is getting them or how they are going to use them is a recipe for disaster.   And I don't know a lot of little old ladies I'd trust to defend themselves without putting a few holes in the neighbor kids too.

Yeah, a determined criminal can get a weapon.   That's no good reason to give them away to every idiot meth-head.   Dealers who shrug their shoulders about the AKs they sell going to Mexico for drug wars are assholes.  OK, so they're accessories.   Assholes is the better term.

And what sets me off is the NRA leadership hyping people's bullshit fears, and the beneficiaries of that are the financial ass-rapists who run the GOP.     Nobody wants your goddamn gun, as long as you don't stoke yourself up on your favorite substance, and then run down and pull the kids out of school at gunpoint to get back at the ex.

And Gabrielle Giffords is the handiwork of the NRA, and all the other assholes who hype firefights as a way to get along with your neighbors. 

What should happen is the industry should police themselves, and take it on themselves to minimize the damage caused by the illegal use of their products.   That's called responsibility, and leadership, but we sure don't see it coming from the GOP.   Because they're assholes who don't deserve to be in a leadership position where they are responsible for anybody else.






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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 4:24:58 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

doesnt stop the criminals from having guns


Check the US vs UK firearms deaths statistics.  

Perfection is a pointless goal, and proves nothing.   OTOH,  keeping more innocent people alive is a reasonable goal.


The larger question is keeping firearms away from criminals.   If a person (like the NRA) says they can't do anything, I believe they won't do anything.   OTOH, if somebody has a plan they believe in, they might be able to make that work, and it's worth looking at.

The fact of the matter is that the gun industry and the NRA just doesn't give a rat's ass how their products are used, and are happy to stoke people's fears to sell more.    They really don't give a flying fuck how many people are killed, as long as their sales are good.



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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 4:25:02 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

As has been proved in countries where the legal ownership of firearms is illegal, it doesnt stop the criminals from having guns.


But as has also been proved, it does cut the number of deaths from gunshot.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 4:26:58 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

fun subject


yeah, until you start picking up bodies for the coroner.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 4:29:38 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

legal or lawful eh? do you even know the difference?


Please educate us.   I've only been practicing 25 years, I want to hear this.  



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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 4:32:26 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

LAW states ARMS,


Exactly which law are you talking about?   Because your 2nd clue is that it's very fucking unlikely that any judge is going to the dictionary to define terms.

Do you know what a sea lawyer is?   It's a fellow who mistakes semantics for law.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 6:01:30 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		ARMS. Any thing that a man wears for his defense, or takes in his hands, or uses in his anger, to cast at, or strike at another. Co. Litt. 161 b, 162 a; Crompt. Just. P. 65; Cunn. Dict. h.t.

The above is the legal definition of Arms, in plain terms, it is whatever a man or woman uses as a weapon for defense or in anger.

Considering with the training I got in the military, I can kill just as easily with a knife as I can with a firearm, just may be a little rusty with the knife.

Now, the Supreme court has ruled that there can be no law banning the possession of firearms, although congress has the power to regulate what kind of firearms one can own, and has done so. To own a fully automatic weapon requires a special license, as I understand (and I may be wrong) the NFA.

Personally, I never understood the appeal of owning a full auto weapon. It is not like you can hunt with it. But then, I have a secret desire to own a ma deuce to shot down santa claus with.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 6:30:38 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
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Status: offline 		10 kiloton nuke is about the size of a soft ball now days LOL

was about the size of thermos bottle 40 years ago.

so your point is what that no one is strong enough to cary at least 10 of them?

LMAO


quote:

Now, the Supreme court has ruled that there can be no law banning the possession of firearms, although congress has the power to regulate what kind of firearms one can own, and has done so. To own a fully automatic weapon requires a special license, as I understand (and I may be wrong) the NFA.


and the jurisdiction of congress is where again???????





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/2/2011 6:34:16 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 6:48:25 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

legal or lawful eh? do you even know the difference?


Please educate us.   I've only been practicing 25 years, I want to hear this.  



Kool!  I enjoy teaching attorneys the law :)

Legal or Lawful?

It is crucial to define the difference between legal and lawful. The generic Constitution references genuine law. The present civil authorities and their courts use the word legal. Is there a difference in the meanings? The following is quoted from A Dictionary of Law 1893: Lawful. In accordance with the law of the land; according to the law; permitted, sanctioned, or justified by law. “Lawful” properly implies a thing conformable to or enjoined by law;

“Legal”, a thing in the form or after the manner of law or binding by law. A writ or warrant issuing from any court, under color of law, is a “legal” process however defective. See legal.

Legal. Latin legalis. Pertaining to the understanding, the exposition, the administration, the science and the practice of law: as, the legal profession, legal advice; legal blanks, newspaper. Implied or imputed in law. Opposed to actual
“Legal” looks more to the letter [form/appearance], (presumptions) and “Lawful” to the spirit [substance/content], (substantive merits) of the law.

“Legal” is more appropriate for conformity to positive rules of law; “Lawful” for accord with ethical principle. “Legal” imports rather that the forms [appearances] (in other words bullshit fictions) of law are observed, that the proceeding is correct in method, that rules prescribed have been obeyed;

“Lawful” that the right is actful in substance, that moral quality is secured.

“Legal” is the antithesis of equitable, and the equivalent of constructive. 2 Abbott’s Law Dic. 24.


be nice now :)


oh what area do you practice btw?




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/2/2011 7:10:29 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to jack8007)
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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 7:29:37 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Fuckin Real, I know you know this shit, but you're pretty lame at explaining it. You are not reading the reader. Jack obvioulsy has some background in law, but obviously different than yours or mine. Everyone is different, and that's why I've had three lawyers recently. Each has their specific area of expertise. I assigned them to do what they do best.

OK, to explain it as cheaply as possible, one way you define it is that there was not a real distiction made until Marbury v Madison. That decree states that if a law is repugnant to the Constitution it is null and void. Period.

So now we have had codes and statutes struck down on Constitutional grounds from time to time. When the supreme court does this, it is in fact saying that what was illegal was not unlawful, and that renders the code or statute unenforcable. Therefore even though a code or statute made something illegal, it did not make it unlawful.

See how simple that was ?

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 3/2/2011 7:30:15 PM >

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 7:56:37 PM   
jack8007


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quote:

Legal or Lawful?


So what's the difference?!?!    I have to agree, you are leagues from clear.

You have 2 adjectives that are largely interchangeable, even if by grammatical convention lawyers may often refer to an act as "lawful" or not - I've never heard ANYBODY try to make the distinctions you're trying to make, nor even give a shit.   In fact, when I translate my prose from legalese for my clients, I translate "lawful" as "legal", because real people don't say "lawful".  Black's isn't free online, and I sure don't give enough of a shit to break mine open & copy it.   The dictionaries you cited are - well, let's say unknown - Black's is the only generally recognized legal dictionary.

But most importantly, you haven't tried to explain what difference it makes to your original point.   I will grant, you won't see job openings for "lawful secretaries", but how does that make a difference to your point?   It looks to me like we are left with your distinction without a difference, in which case I refer you to CA Civil Code sec. 3533, "The law disregards trifles."   See also, "sea lawyer".

And don't be listening to any of them common law boys about strawmen, etc, or you'll wind up sharing a cell with Wesley Snipes.

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RE: What kind of Gun Regulation Makes Sense? - 3/2/2011 8:14:00 PM   
jack8007


Posts: 392
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quote:

law that pisses me off the most in minnesota (this is not a federal law) is a permit to carry is only valid if you are not drunk.


Yeah, I gotta admit, that's a real downer.   But if you're drunk enough, you won't care anymore, will you?   There's your answer, right there.   Just get completely pissed.   

Or was that what you were saying?

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