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RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 7:38:05 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Sunny quote of the day
goes to
NihilusZero

for
People tend to be solipsistic thinkers.


(I can hear the dictionary pages turning from all the way over here!)




agreed -- that's pretty snazzy. =p and so very true!!!
"har har, i'm so awesome because i've been around for 20 years and i totally know everything" is not a helpful answer.

like others have said, the definitions are going to depend on a lot of things.
people will trot out various historical forms of slavery and say "if you don't act exactly like this, you aren't a real slave." i don't agree with that, because anyone who's doing this consensually, for the most part, has little, if anything, in common with someone who did it against their will, as in nearly all historical models.
one man's slave is another man's sub is another man's unruly bitch, i'm sure. =p haha

it really only matters how you define it for your relationships in your reality.

though i will say, for myself, i do believe there are differences between some subs and some slaves; not in a sense that one is better or "more advanced" or some other silly thing than the other, but they are different.
i was talking to someone about a friend of mine -- she mentioned that she had talked to another girl about whether or not she would ever do something to please her D that was scary and/or painful. the other girl said "no way!!" while the friend and i both could say "yeah, sure i have." there IS a difference in motivation there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SexyBossyBBW
I've always liked this set of descriptions, and they are similar to what I've read.
quote:


http://www.collarchat.com/m_604021/mpage_1/tm.htm
Submissive; one who yields power or control to the dominant on a limited basis both during day to day life and during scening or playing. Or one whose nature is submissive, one may be a submissive whether or not they currently are submitting to a dominant, it is what they naturally are.
 
Slave; one who yields control of all aspects of their existence to the dominant within the limits agreed upon prior to being collared (these are generally agreed upon moral limits, not to be confused with" I get it my way or I leave or Sam type behaviors). One who is considered to be owned by another as their sole property. One whose submission to their owner/s is total, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week in and out of any scenes or play..



i can agree with those, yep. there are all sorts of exceptions to every rule, but those are pretty solid, without adding in any "one is more awesomester than the other" thingies. =p


_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


(in reply to sunshinemiss)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 8:07:23 AM   
a49015Dom4subF


Posts: 20
Joined: 5/30/2009
Status: offline 		The beauty of this lifestyle is in the way we can shape it to meet our own needs and desires.  Generally speaking, that definition is one of the better ones I have seen.

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 8:11:35 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		~fast reply~
in general, the term 'slave' implies someone who submits "more totally" than a sub. The issue here is the "more totally" part... in who's estimation? The only answer is "in the estimation of the two people involved". For the sake of communicating to other people, I'd use the word "slave" if, in general, it is your intention to give yourself completely to someone else... no limits... no boundaries... no safe words. The master calls the shots and the slave obeys. If, on the other hand, something a bit more moderate seems more sensible to you, then I'd use "sub". What is really important to remember is that these are just labels. They do not and never can actually describe any individual human. Think of them as rough approximations to get someone else in the ball park. But in the end, you are "you".

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 8:22:47 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		fantastically said, leadership

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica


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RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 8:49:18 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

No need to get complex. The difference is simple.

Submissive's have many choices, slaves have one-to obey or not.


I have never understood this. When I was a submissive, I had to do what I was told. If I didn't, I got punished, and if I had continued, I would have been dismissed. My ex roommate was a slave. He had to do what he was told. If he didn't, he got punished, and if he continued, he would have been dismissed. So what choices did I have that he didn't?


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"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 8:52:13 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

I know several friends of mine that are slaves and are loved and cherished.


Me too and the ones who weren't, left and found new Masters.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 9:21:33 AM   
leadership527


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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep
fantastically said, leadership

Thank you Lily... although as I pondered that answer I'm wondering if I no longer believe it. I used to identify these things along some sort of "continuum of authority/control". But upon reflection I have to observe two things.

a) Just exactly as thisherboi said, I've yet to figure out the difference. Slaves and property can and do disobey all the time... just like subs. When they do, they get punished... just like subs. If that sort of thing goes on to the point where the dominant loses patience, then they are released... just like subs.

b) I'm coming to conclude that, at least in common usage, the word "slave" has a "flavor" to it that extends beyond simply the authority dynamic. I'm coming to decide that when that word is used, there are images of "helpless, oppressed slave girls cringing at the feet of their master." I'm thinking that to describe Carol, "My obedient wife" probably gives people a better image than "my slave" whether or not obedience extends to "total".


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 9:49:03 AM   
Licke


Posts: 24
Joined: 1/14/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you

< Message edited by Licke -- 3/3/2011 9:50:13 AM >

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 9:58:00 AM   
LadyBErika


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/7/2011
Status: offline 		Many silly comments
if you look in a message ill explain the difference to you.

Lady B

(in reply to Licke)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 1:24:39 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep

fantastically said, leadership

Echo.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
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(in reply to LillyBoPeep)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 1:36:52 PM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

No need to get complex. The difference is simple.

Submissive's have many choices, slaves have one-to obey or not.


I have never understood this. When I was a submissive, I had to do what I was told. If I didn't, I got punished, and if I had continued, I would have been dismissed. My ex roommate was a slave. He had to do what he was told. If he didn't, he got punished, and if he continued, he would have been dismissed. So what choices did I have that he didn't?


This does bring up a very good point.

I would want to say that the expectation of obedience to "rules" is static across all relationships (even in monogamous vanilla relationships where one is expected not to cheat, for instance).

The difference would be in the expanse of life-facets that obedience is expected in. In D/s i'd see that as selective, based on pre-determined areas of surrender discussed by both partners. In M/s i'd tend to see it as applicable to all facets.

The difference is in the breadth of things in which obedience is expected. I find this particulary the case since I'm not sure (based on discussion elsewhere that I was engaged in) that O/p or M/s dominants are necessarily less lenient across the board to infractions even though the expanse of expectation is greater.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 3/3/2011 1:39:48 PM >

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

NihilusZero.com

CM Sex God du Jour
CM Hall Monitor

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 1:45:21 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Interesting observation NZ. I hadn't thought to think of it by separate the expectation of control from the expectation of obedience. Honestly to me that's a non-starter but obviously it works for a lot of others.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NihilusZero)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 2:27:50 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

The difference would be in the expanse of life-facets that obedience is expected in. In D/s i'd see that as selective, based on pre-determined areas of surrender discussed by both partners. In M/s i'd tend to see it as applicable to all facets.


Not sure what you mean by areas? I was expected to do what she wanted whether we were in the middle of a scene at a party or I was alone at the grocery store deciding what to buy for dinner. Our relationship didn't change depending on situations. I was always her sub.


_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 5:23:38 PM   
enani17236


Posts: 16
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		What is "obedience"?

To me, it is "doing what you are being told to do." But if you aren't told to show submission, then you can perform this required service without the slightest indication of submission.

Obedience has very little to do with submission. You can be very submissive, and still refuse to do something that is not a act of submission... Submission is all about confirming the dominant party's higher social rank and first right to the resources. It is about LETTING THE OTHER MAKE THE FIRST CHOICE - it is not at all about DOING things. Submission is NOT about providing a service!

Now, becaus submission to a good dominant will lead to an enjoyable and pleasing acceptance, a good trainer can use someone else's submission to condition other behaviors to be performed on demand. But it only works as long as there 1) is a way for the trainer to obtain the desired behavior, and most importantly 2) the trainee has a significant experience of a reward following that behavior, so that a desire for repetition is developed. As all animal trainers know, this has serious limitations.

Also, humans generally believe in their own ability to obtain what they want through punishment. If you can communicate your will, then you can also beat or force someone else to do what you want - IF you have the power to do so. At least, most people think so. Reality of this is that it ALWAYS generates serious APPREHENSION and FEAR - and that WILL destroy any relationship. So, although a "slave owner" in principle could do this, it can't work, because it destroys the relationship.

Conclusion: neither slavery nor submission can give you obedience, unless the action you demand is desirable for the subordinate or can be made desirable for him/her.

_____________________________

Freedom means having options to choose among, even if you might not always like those options. If you have no options or do not know about your options, you are enslaved...


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 5:26:17 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: enani17236
The only way it can be justified to use those two words in comparison of each other is by considering the time element involved in both of them. Submission is a instant behavior that is triggered by events in the environment - and it lasts only for the time the interaction between the two individuals will be physical.


What a shock. The feeling of chemistry may have been instantaneous but the behavior was not.

As far as it being only a temporary physical thing, I haven't been in sub frenzy for eight years.

But yes, you're entitled to your entirely erroneous opinion which has been proved false simply by those of us who are in long term d/s relationships which encompass a lot more than the physical.

In simpler terms, what a load of malarkey.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 5:27:21 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: enani17236
Conclusion: neither slavery nor submission can give you obedience, unless the action you demand is desirable for the subordinate or can be made desirable for him/her.
*blinks*
*pauses*
*blinks again*
Gosh, not in my world. I certainly would not think of myself as dominant or Carol as submissive were this true between us.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to enani17236)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 6:44:00 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

we are so kind to new people...


Yes.  Isn't it a shame that some folks ignored the OP's question completely?



I agree.

I don't see submissive or slave as either being more or less submissive than the other.  For me, it's not about rights, degree/depth of submission, love or lack thereof, etc.  For me, it's about how much authority one has over the other.

You'll obviously find a million answers out there.  I personally am not all that hung up on the labels anymore.  The man has authority over my life.  I trust him to do so.  I submit to his will. He trusts I will do so.  Call it what you may. 


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 6:45:19 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Call it what you may.

Lovely?


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 6:45:25 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

obedience
quote:

ORIGINAL: enani17236

Conclusion: neither slavery nor submission can give you obedience, unless the action you demand is desirable for the subordinate or can be made desirable for him/her.


This might be your experience.  It is certainly not a universal experience.  I know it isn't mine.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to enani17236)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Difference Between Submissive & Slave?. - 3/3/2011 6:56:33 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		~FR to the OP~

For every person who answer the question posed in the OP, you will get a different answer. The reason is that individuals tend to define not only themselves, but their own relationships by their own guidelines, boundaries, and definitions. The best way to answer this is to find a definition that works for you and your partner, and then apply it to yourselves, forgetting what others have to say about it.

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If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.


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Profile   Post #: 60
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