quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

I am sorry if the smell of that thickening soup offends (smile). But since the words clearly don't apply to you and your experiences, you should probably pay them no heed, no? My hope was not that everyone or even that most people would accept what I wrote as a self-evident truth, but rather that a person facing something like what I have faced will find use in what was said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

My point was that when a slave has the right attitude, that she is there to serve him, and he is not there to pander to or gently encourage her vanity or even her perception of herself as most reasonable and self-policing, then correction from the master and owner, even quite harsh physical correction, is welcomed with open arms because of the way it provides the slave with the direction she needs to better align herself with his will. When you hold the specific frame of mind suggested by the sentence you quoted, then physical suffering in order to learn a lesson is not something that a slave's ego finds offensive or something that hurts her feelings. Instead, it's viewed as practical, commonsense, in fact, a given. From the beginnings of human thought, people have learned quickest and best from pain. It the prime and most holy of teachers. I personally encourage and desire such learning in myself, as I know I will get to where I want to be much faster with it. Any individual who is willing to risk alienating you, making your resentful, offending you, hurting your feelings, or causing other sorts of bad feelings or confusion because he had the nerve to teach you with pain deserves, in my opinion, nothing less than one's most profuse thanks for administering the push that allows your to progress so much faster than could ever be done if he had to tiptoe around your pride over learning intellectually without "primitive" forms of corporal punishment that are clearly "beneath" you.

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I am sorry if the idea of harsh pain or sharp scolding given with no intellectual explanations or respect for one's ability to self-police offends your idea of yourself as a purely intellectual learner, but to me, these actions are signs of a master--or a mistress--who is truly worth serving under, as such an individual has the balls to not spend years kowtowing to a slave's ego but rather uses whatever methods are quickest and most efficient (even if subjectively rough on you at the time) to accomplish his or her goal: leading you into deeper and more intense enslavement. These tried-and-true methods really do work while, quite frequently, the deep respect that some "slaves" demand for themselves doesn't work at all in the long run to increase their ability to serve.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

Actually, I think I draw some obvious conclusions from a statement that was a little pompous. Instead of asking me what I meant by any part of my statement, you go instantly into lecture mode. The truth is that you have imagined a contradiction where none actually existed, though I will make one attempt to reexplain and belabor the logic, which, I expect, is already quite obvious to those who do not have personal issues around the content of the statement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

i don't typically observe such pointed verbiage from newcomers on this site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablarosa

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

i don't typically observe such pointed verbiage from newcomers on this site.

WTF... what? Newcomers can't be articulate? I guess the only ones that can be have paddles over their names, then? 8-|


"Particularly since i'm not inclined to be inflammatory in my manner of speech."

Not sure if you realize this, but you DO seem a little full of yourself. Maybe people are mistaking that for being inflammatory? My guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablarosa

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

i don't typically observe such pointed verbiage from newcomers on this site.

WTF... what? Newcomers can't be articulate? I guess the only ones that can be have paddles over their names, then? 8-|


"Particularly since i'm not inclined to be inflammatory in my manner of speech."

Not sure if you realize this, but you DO seem a little full of yourself. Maybe people are mistaking that for being inflammatory? My guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

What I actually think is that any master who does not conduct his or her enslavement of a consensual slave using methods that actually work to increase the enslavement and avoiding practices that undermine the slave's understanding of really being owned, is, in the long run, doing both the "master" and the "slave" a dangerous disservice. The master is fostering a lie: a gentle pleasant lie, but a lie nonetheless. The lie is that what is being experienced is genuine, deep, real enslavement. By fostering this lie, he encourages the submissive dependent upon him and trusting in his truth to lie to herself about the reality of their relationship. Such self-deception can go on for quite some time, even decades, until one day other experiences cause the "slave" to wake up and realize that she's just spent 10, 15, or 20 years living a lie; that she entirely lost sight of her vision and settled for a comfortable, loving, safe, easy second best; that she was never really enslaved at all, she only thought she was. The horror of such a realization after a huge chunk of your adult life is gone, the realization that you spent it living a lie rather than pursuing your ultimate goal and that you are no more closer to that beloved goal (of being truly enslaved) than you were before you started is one of the more painful experiences a person who needs to do something, such as become a slave, can undergo in life, particularly if they are reaching a point where their age has greatly narrowed their possibilities for the realization of their "dream," or, as I think of it, "what they must do before they die."

quote:



To take a general message such as the above personally, particularly a message aimed, as I said in the earlier post, to a very narrow (but still unknown and general) audience, says a great deal about the reader and virtually nothing about the writer, other than the latter's desire to communicate an experience that has been very important and devastating in her life to whomsoever can hear it.

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Why is it particularly surprising to you that I might think that someone who does not want to enslave somebody as deeply as is humanly possible and someone who doesn't want to be enslaved as deeply as is humanly possible might actually be a dominant and submissive involved in an extreme control relationship who are enamored of the words "master" and "slave," but who are not genuinely master and slave?

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The few masters and slaves that I have known who were genuinely what they claimed to be were always deeply interested in increasing the intensity of their awareness of one party's enslavement to the other, because they wanted so badly to have as genuine an experience of actual mastery and enslavement as is possible to have. That sort of passion is quite rare but in my experience it is a solid earmark of the reality of any master/slave relationship--or a sign of its potential. I encounter this seldom, but I have encountered it enough to know that despite their rarity, actual master-slave relationships truly exist. They just aren't what I see most bdsm people defining them as.

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablarosa

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

i don't typically observe such pointed verbiage from newcomers on this site.

WTF... what? Newcomers can't be articulate? I guess the only ones that can be have paddles over their names, then? 8-|


"Particularly since i'm not inclined to be inflammatory in my manner of speech."

Not sure if you realize this, but you DO seem a little full of yourself. Maybe people are mistaking that for being inflammatory? My guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday

When you hold the specific frame of mind suggested by the sentence you quoted, then physical suffering in order to learn a lesson is not something that a slave's ego finds offensive or something that hurts her feelings.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

However, your posts were centered on using pain as the only suitable method to attain the owner's goal, and I don't see you speaking to that in this response to me.  Would you agree that humans are multidimensional beings, and given one's particular history, emotional make up, and triggers, a "one size fits all" approach would not be appropriate?  Did I misread the above when you spoke of the master's "nerve to teach you with pain?" Because I wasn't inquiring about self truths and living lies; I was inquiring about your assertion that pain is the only road to achieve the end result.  Since you refer to pain as "the prime and most holy of teachers," I'm curious as to how you think this applies to all humans.

There is still an unanswered question out there, "Are you saying those owners are tiptoeing around their slaves' pride? Are you saying physical pain is the best way to teach a slave, and without it, those owners are not optimally operating?"

I have no idea at all where you factored in that something was taken personally here.  Did my response indicate I had done that?  I assure you, nothing you say here has been or will be taken personally.  Don't confuse a comparison of your logic to my experience as taking something personally, it's simply a rebuttal of your ideas.  A discussion. On a discussion board. 

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I'm simply disagreeing with you. Please don't take that personally, either.

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
i don't typically observe such pointed verbiage from newcomers on this site.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aromanholiday


If this is, as you say, simply a discussion on a discussion board, then why does this feel like an interrogation to me? If this is "just a discussion" on a discussion board then I am certainly free to respond to your post in whatever way I wish. I'm not an Answers Machine that you can kick when it doesn't respond to precisely the exact question you asked. Discussion, NV. NOT interrogation.

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I may very well answer the pain question because it is an interesting one to me but the more you demand and push, the more you complain I didn't SPECIFICALLY answer the SPECIFIC question you demanded I answer, the less inclined I am to have anything to do with you.

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Ah yes, I certainly will not. As long as you don't take my words above personally, too. I'm just stating my honest impressions that your words made on me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
You've made statements that I thought merited questioning.  Questioning those statements has obviously made you uncomfortable, so I'll drop it and move on. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine
i don't typically observe such pointed verbiage from newcomers on this site.

 
You do if they're articulate.  Your ostentatious display of vocabulary is sufficiently impenetrable to make many people wonder what the fuck you're talking about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: diablarosa

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
You've made statements that I thought merited questioning.  Questioning those statements has obviously made you uncomfortable, so I'll drop it and move on. 

Funny. Looks like the other way around from here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


I actually think Bita did a far better job of pointing out differences to the "pain" approach than I did. Maybe because she didn't ask any questions, lol.