RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 11:37:15 AM)

It's because I am a true Dom.



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 12:22:33 PM)


I dont think you have a true sense of appreciation for the magnitude of the Salmon-Challis, or the Frank Church Wilderness, or the size and the grandeur of all of the Western lands and waters. No one could possibly see it all and fully appreciate it without a vehicle... so think about that.

Thee has to be some balance. We can use some of the land to mine or drill gas and oil wells so that we can enjoy the things we need to live our modern lives and still have unimaginably large tracts of pristine land to enjoy and to preserve and hand down to future generations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Thomas, I try to like you. I look at your pictures of the national parks, you fishing in a beautiful river and you drinking from a well.

You value these places and yet are willing to put them at risk?

Is it because it is not in your backyard? WTF?

You have the luxury to live and to be able to easily visit areas that have been set aside and have avoided the wrath of development and the damage it can undoubtedly bring.

Would you accept drilling in Yellowstone or Salmon-Challis? What if the wells became contaminated or that river no longer held fish?

I envy you. I am stuck here in Chicago, beautiful city, beautiful Lakefront. We watch as invasive species are routinely dropped into our waters and industrial spills happen along her tributaries. Good fishing, though. I think about the impact on Lake Michigan if a gulf type of spill were to happen here. It is simply not worth the risk.

Find alternatives. Charge more for gas. Don't fuck up the few unique and beautiful places left in this country.



kdsub -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 12:29:54 PM)

Did they not know the requirements before they spent the billions of dollars on exploration? If not then someone needs to be fired at Shell. No… this is just another political ploy by big oil to get more concessions from congress.

Butch



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 3:54:44 PM)


Thats not realistic, the EPA made a political decision based on "greenhouse gas emissions" of the oil recovery process itself, claiming among other things that the emissions of an ice breaking ship that would be used would harm the planet. It wasnt based on any harm that the drilling would do to the immediate environment.

The goal really seems to be higher gasoline prices, and if that is the goal they should just come out and say so and not play these games. Was the EPA really set up to meet leftist political goals such as making fuel unaffordable for poorer Americans, driving inflation, and harming the overall economy?

I think not, this is what you would call mission creep.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Did they not know the requirements before they spent the billions of dollars on exploration? If not then someone needs to be fired at Shell. No… this is just another political ploy by big oil to get more concessions from congress.

Butch



jlf1961 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 3:58:58 PM)

I am going to point this out once again, something that the right wing "Drill Baby Drill" crowd loves to ignore.

The technology does not exist to deal with blowouts on offshore wells regardless of the depth, added to that is the simple fact they are talking about drilling in the harshest climate possible.

Of course with climate change, the Arctic Ice Pack is not what it used to be, so maybe that is what they are counting on, the global climate reaching the point so the ice pack no longer matters.



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 4:21:51 PM)




Drill baby drill!

quote:

Obama presses oil producing nations to boost output


(Reuters) - President Barack Obama said on Tuesday oil producing countries should increase their output to curb the rise in gasoline prices because "if we're not growing, they're not going to be making money either."



"We're talking to oil producers around the world and letting them know it's in their interest to make sure that high oil prices don't end up hurting the world economy," Obama said in an interview with the CBS affiliate WTKR in Hampton Roads, Virginia.


Full article here




Everywhere but here?




Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 4:28:30 PM)



"Everywhere but here?"


~ Slowly ... ever so slowly ... he is starting to catch on here. ~

Strategy, long term strategy.









MrRodgers -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 4:30:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I am going to point this out once again, something that the right wing "Drill Baby Drill" crowd loves to ignore.

The technology does not exist to deal with blowouts on offshore wells regardless of the depth, added to that is the simple fact they are talking about drilling in the harshest climate possible.

Of course with climate change, the Arctic Ice Pack is not what it used to be, so maybe that is what they are counting on, the global climate reaching the point so the ice pack no longer matters.

And despite that lack of real knowledge, they drill anyway and kill people etc., etc.

Kinkroids are you even aware of just where the US oil drilling market is positioned today ? There have been literally dozens of oil drilling permits issued just in 2011. Here causing a veritable oil rush.

Here too tells us that deep water oil production is proceeding about as fast as it safely can. In fact the expectation is that shallow water drilling will decline while deep water will grow 400,000 bbls. a day soon. At the resulting 2mill./day will have hit soon producing more oil in the US than all other sources.

I read somewhere that not only were 10 new permits issued in only one recent month but that some inland wells are being limited to 400 bbls. a day, just enough to cover expenses and maintenance. Why am I not surprised ?

Think about fora...you are an oil producer. You want to find and drill oil. BUT, at $100/bbl. you do NOT want that oil on the market anythime soon. The more oil I find, the more I have. The less I refine and put on the market...the more money I make by keeping the price high. Capitalism is discovering the highest possible price at the greatest profit that the market will bear...and try to leave it there or watch it edge up.

Another thing, the speculators are not up to date on every supply decision. What they do is speculate. I am telling you, this forces, yes forces the oil companies to get into futures. This adds demand for not oil but for more speculation. Speculators seek to profit off selling their paper, oil companies must hedge simply to lose the least when they have to go back to the market for more and now higher priced oil.



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 4:31:34 PM)


If you can only call crashing the economy and spiking our trade imbalances a 'strategy'



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 4:55:05 PM)


Leftists should just be honest, so we can have an honest debate. They love outrageously high gasoline prices, and if youre willing to listen to them theyll tell you so:

Steven Chu, Obamas energy secretary: "Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe,"


Obama Supports High Gas Prices If They're Gradually Hiked


Left Wing Media - Why you should love $5 gas

And they also know that dependence on foreign sources of energy is the primary factor behind higher fuel prices:

Obamas EPA chief Lisa Jackson: “What appears to be the most important factor at work is our dependence on imported energy,” she said. “This is what leaves us vulnerable to jumps in prices. When something changes thousands of miles away, the American people pay for it at the pump.”






Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 4:58:09 PM)




"If you can only call crashing the economy and spiking our trade imbalances a 'strategy' "



Nice cave you have there.

The economy crashing thing already happened, and amazing to me as it is to you or anyone else, somebody besides oil did it this time. But the Enron traders have come to the task for oil here after crashing Enron and trashing many a pension fund, so I think we're in good hands here, as far as driving this country where you and your ilk keep screaming we should take it. Down. And further down.

Now that you've come out of that cave, the search thing is easy, so tell us the last time we had a positive trade balance?


Let's get real here. You don't give a crap about any of this, nothing to do with reality at all. The frikkin' football of politics is just too fun for your stupid giggling self. 


You have not even one nanoliter of integrity.






Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:07:21 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Leftists should just be honest, so we can have an honest debate. They love outrageously high gasoline prices, and if youre willing to listen to them theyll tell you so:

Steven Chu, Obamas energy secretary: "Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe,"


Obama Supports High Gas Prices If They're Gradually Hiked


Left Wing Media - Why you should love $5 gas

And they also know that dependence on foreign sources of energy is the primary factor behind higher fuel prices:

Obamas EPA chief Lisa Jackson: “What appears to be the most important factor at work is our dependence on imported energy,” she said. “This is what leaves us vulnerable to jumps in prices. When something changes thousands of miles away, the American people pay for it at the pump.”







Yes, the quite lengthy and thorough explanation of oil company mergers and refinery shut downs and elementary school economics explained in several threads on this forum having all flown miles above your "my side good! yur side bad!" microscopic brain there, this latest you expect others to take seriously, right?

No one can accuse you of not providing great court jester service. OK, well, we can because you lack the brain to be actually funny, but I'm trying to be kind here.







kdsub -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:10:48 PM)

I'm not disputing the nuts and bolts... just Shell's supposed surprise at the regulations... They should have looked into these regulations before spending all the money... You know they did...who is going to spend billions without knowing the regulations involved.

To spend the money then cry foul is suspicious at best… They are just taking advantage of the political climate to wring more concessions.

With the price per barrel of fuel today they can make a nice profit under the current regulations they just want more if they can get it.

In my opinion anyway.

Butch



MrRodgers -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:12:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

If you can only call crashing the economy and spiking our trade imbalances a 'strategy'

The economy was already crashed and it could be worse.

I am telling you folks, it was worse in 1980-84. After the oil embargo-induced recession of 1979-80, interest rates were 10% and higher with some mortgages at 12% with a 3-5% pay down. Gas stations could only sell odd-even cutting revenue from the larger units and lay-offs. Detroit was selling (not selling) gas guzzlers. The govt. bailed out Chrysler and Lockheed and then came the S & L crisis.

Official unemployment was had grown from 10.5% to 10.8% by the end of 83. The unofficial city estimates were 20-25% umemployed. Kitchens and shelters were overwhelmed. The price of oil was doubling then tripling adjusted for inflation...more expensive than now. The S & L crisis saw some lose millions. 700+ S & L's failed and the clean up cost taxpayers billions.



jlf1961 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:18:53 PM)

Why dont we be honest here, the conservatives do not give a damn about risk to the environment even if it directly impacts them.

On June 22, 1969, an oil slick and debris in the Cuyahoga River caught fire in Cleveland, Ohio, drawing national attention to environmental problems in Ohio and elsewhere in the United States.

This Cuyahoga River fire lasted just thirty minutes, but it did approximately fifty thousand dollars in damage -- principally to some railroad bridges spanning the river. It is unclear what caused the fire, but most people believe sparks from a passing train ignited an oil slick in the Cuyahoga River. This was not the first time that the river had caught on fire. Fires occurred on the Cuyahoga River in 1868, 1883, 1887, 1912, 1922, 1936, 1941, 1948, and in 1952. The 1952 fire caused over 1.5 million dollars in damage.

It caught fire due to an oil slick on the river, thanks to lax or nonexistent environmental laws and the steel companies discharging waste into the river.

Conservatives can google river catches fire to find out more information about the CONSERVATIVE idea on environmental protection.



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:29:33 PM)


It wasnt a decision based on regulations, it was a political decision, an arbitrary political decision that will have a decidedly chilling effect on future exploration investments

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm not disputing the nuts and bolts... just Shell's supposed surprise at the regulations... They should have looked into these regulations before spending all the money... You know they did...who is going to spend billions without knowing the regulations involved.

To spend the money then cry foul is suspicious at best… They are just taking advantage of the political climate to wring more concessions.

With the price per barrel of fuel today they can make a nice profit under the current regulations they just want more if they can get it.

In my opinion anyway.

Butch



Sanity -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:31:04 PM)


If they figured inflation now the same way they did in 1980 the current inflation rate would officially be 10% and I believe that the actual unemployment rates is around 17%

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

If you can only call crashing the economy and spiking our trade imbalances a 'strategy'

The economy was already crashed and it could be worse.

I am telling you folks, it was worse in 1980-84. After the oil embargo-induced recession of 1979-80, interest rates were 10% and higher with some mortgages at 12% with a 3-5% pay down. Gas stations could only sell odd-even cutting revenue from the larger units and lay-offs. Detroit was selling (not selling) gas guzzlers. The govt. bailed out Chrysler and Lockheed and then came the S & L crisis.

Official unemployment was had grown from 10.5% to 10.8% by the end of 83. The unofficial city estimates were 20-25% umemployed. Kitchens and shelters were overwhelmed. The price of oil was doubling then tripling adjusted for inflation...more expensive than now. The S & L crisis saw some lose millions. 700+ S & L's failed and the clean up cost taxpayers billions.




Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:35:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Kinkroids are you even aware of just where the US oil drilling market is positioned today ? There have been literally dozens of oil drilling permits issued just in 2011. Here causing a veritable oil rush.

...you are an oil producer. You want to find and drill oil. BUT, at $100/bbl. you do NOT want that oil on the market anythime soon. The more oil I find, the more I have. The less I refine and put on the market...the more money I make by keeping the price high.





Bingo!


We have a winner!


It's about taking possession of reserves, not necessarily exploiting what is in hand to the fullest. The  oil companies' valuations and stock price are inevitably based largely on proven reserves as listed on the balance sheet. 






Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

....  it was a political decision,




You are constitutionally incapable of seeing anything that transpires in the world in any other light than 'political.'


You are the complete dupe that the oil and financial and pharma companies dream of, and what keeps all the current day media of any slant in business. Were it up to people who only care about facts, mainstream media would be gone tomorrow. They thank you and your micro-brain brethren for keeping alive what any good evolutionary scheme would have killed off years ago.






kdsub -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:44:23 PM)

It seems to me the regulations are a decent compromise between risk and reward. There is danger to the environment in all types of energy production...The alternative is to go back to candles. We as consumers will just have to be ready to pay more for our power and minimize the danger to the environment.

There has to be a middle ground.

To me what is wrong with the Republican platform is the resistance to alternate fuel programs not their belief that environmentalists, and their Democrat allies, are being unnecessarily restrictive in regulations.

I think there is no valid reason why we can’t drill for oil and protect the environment. At least as a stop gap measure until our alternate sources become established.

Butch



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