RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans

RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (Full Version)

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kdsub -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 5:49:28 PM)
All decisions are political and Shell will have to live with them like it or not... I'll bet they will continue with their exploration even with the new regulations. We have been hearing the same old tune from big oil for the last 30 years… and they still are making astronomical profits… is this not true? I can't stand their alligator tears while they have a hand in my wallet. Butch

outhere69 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 6:15:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Considering that there are two schools of though about how much oil is under the United States, meaning that there may or may not be enough oil to make us independent. There are some known oil deposits that we simply do not have the technology to drill into. Since the Ixtoc I was an exploratory oil well being drilled by the semi-submersible drilling rig Sedco 135-F in the Bay of Campeche of the Gulf of Mexico, the technology on how to deal with SHALLOW well blow outs has not advanced, and they tried the same ideas on the recent spill in the Gulf and all of those failed. Why drill in water where we have no clue as to how to treat a blow out. That is irresponsible at best, criminally negligent at worst. Even better, do it in the Arctic with hardly any Coast Guard coverage, boom equipment, robotic submersibles, and no sea access for half the year.

flcouple2009 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 6:56:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf196 The technology does not exist to deal with blowouts on offshore wells regardless of the depth, added to that is the simple fact they are talking about drilling in the harshest climate possible. Simply not true ALL of the original attempts they made on the BP problem were techniques which have been successfully used in shallow waters. Now they have a road map for what does and does not work in deeper water. Unfortunately that was new territory which was figure you out as you go.

jlf1961 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 7:37:36 PM)
Flcouple, you should research the Ixtoc oil spill, in 160 feet of water and everything they tried on the BP spill was tried on that spill, and it did not work then.

thompsonx -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/27/2011 11:53:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mezrem Do you really expect him (Obama ) to offer more the lip service about energy independence? Entire segments of our population really believe the EPA is a good thing 100% of the time. That because I run my a/c I'm killing a polar bear... all hope is not lost but this is just another sign that either Obama is telling us lies to try and keep us happy while gas goes to 6$ a gallon or he can't control his appointees. I for one am willing to drill through the head of one of Santa's reindeer if it means energy independence. We keep hearing as well that people all over the country need jobs.. here is an idea... build some new damn refineries and if there is oil some were drill! We can sit by and let others do it of course and buy oil from them.. we can help other countries build new refineries or build them here. Seems kind of simple to me, but what do I know. I'm a right wing kind of guy and every one knows people like me love dirty air and water. Do you just open your mouth to change feet? The u.s. currently has excess refining capacity. You did know thqt hugo ships a lot of his oil here to be refined.

Termyn8or -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 12:05:30 AM)
FR When they get you used to paying $4 a gallon, then they will get you used to paying $5 a gallon. And next they will get you used to paying $6 a gallon. Then oil will be plentiful and we can all beg for a price decrease that will never happen. You think it's just the fed that can devaluate money ? Hell no, anyone with a necessary commodity can do so if unchecked by some other force. That force is SUPPOSED to be the government. It's not. But YOU will be. YOU will not be able to drive anywhere because you will not be able to afford gas. Then when the demand goes down, they will use it as an excuse to raise the price even more. They can't have their profits drop because Grampa's retirement check depends on it. Where ya been ? T^T

flcouple2009 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 6:40:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Flcouple, you should research the Ixtoc oil spill, in 160 feet of water and everything they tried on the BP spill was tried on that spill, and it did not work then. I am not the one who should try a little research. In fact you should try a lot of research. I grew up right in the middle of the oil patch. I am rather certain that I've thrown more chain and played in more drilling mud than you have. I am also certain I have more friends and people I know who work in the gulf than you do. I am also sure I know more about any recent accidents and procedures than you ever will. Try something besides wiki. Proud Louisiana Swamp Rat

jlf1961 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 11:12:57 AM)
flcouple, then would you be so kind as to explain why, during the crisis in the gulf, BP and Transocean did not try anything that had worked in the past in shallow water? Instead, they tried techniques that did not work in 160 feet of water that failed. Please,by all means provide links to similar oil spills in the gulf that have tried this "New Technology" you claim exists. The only thing that worked in Ixtoc and the Transocean blowouts was the drilling of relief wells, that took months to accomplish all the while oil continued to flow into the gulf.

Mezrem -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 11:30:55 AM)
http://money.cnn.com/2007/04/17/news/economy/refineries/ Here you go my friend, when I'm wrong I will admit it but in this case, I'm not. quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Mezrem Do you really expect him (Obama ) to offer more the lip service about energy independence? Entire segments of our population really believe the EPA is a good thing 100% of the time. That because I run my a/c I'm killing a polar bear... all hope is not lost but this is just another sign that either Obama is telling us lies to try and keep us happy while gas goes to 6$ a gallon or he can't control his appointees. I for one am willing to drill through the head of one of Santa's reindeer if it means energy independence. We keep hearing as well that people all over the country need jobs.. here is an idea... build some new damn refineries and if there is oil some were drill! We can sit by and let others do it of course and buy oil from them.. we can help other countries build new refineries or build them here. Seems kind of simple to me, but what do I know. I'm a right wing kind of guy and every one knows people like me love dirty air and water. Do you just open your mouth to change feet? The u.s. currently has excess refining capacity. You did know thqt hugo ships a lot of his oil here to be refined.

Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 12:14:45 PM)
You are misinformed by way of being selective in choosing what information suits your purpose or not. Does the EPA actually prohibit any refinery from being built at all, or do they merely require that, like everything else, refineries actually get with the modern world as to safety and pollution standards? ExonMobil made $30 billion clear profit last year, and spent near $13 million in lobbying efforts. But they can't afford to build a refinery with modern technology and up to standards that are not 50 years old? Get a clue. PS Your article failed to mention that the oil companies themselves have shut down 150 refineries in the US in the last 30 years.

Mezrem -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 1:03:45 PM)
I have a clue in fact several of them, thank you. The artical I posted happened to be the first I found not connected in any way to a "right wing" source. I have not seen the plans or specifications for the proposed project, have you? If you have not are you sure the tech you are talking about is 50 yrs old? No sourced proof? Ah thats right they are the evil Big Oil so you don't need any. I'm sorry I forgot the rules. Ok now as to your post script. Lets take it as true you are right and they closed down ALL of those them selves. No one was screaming when oil was 40$ a barrel and alot of the smaller oil companys were fighting for thier lives and we were all at the pumps at under a dollar a gallon. Like with any other kind of plant it takes more money to run an old plant. Costs are greater because you have more and more equipment problems. There comes a point when it is no longer profitable to keep the plant open. Sorry about that but nothing lasts forever. Again though let us put that all aside as well? How does that change the fact that more product on the market would lower the cost. That was the point of the post. I was being called to task for dare putting out there that the refineries can't keep up with the demand? How was that wrong.. oh that is right I'm wrong because I think it's ok for people to make money, my bad. I forgot that it is suposed to be fact people who believe as I do want dirty water and air. Don't believe me, ok here is anther link for you. http://www.businessinsider.com/refinery-closures-push-us-gas-infrastructure-to-the-breaking-point-2009-12 quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn You are misinformed by way of being selective in choosing what information suits your purpose or not. Does the EPA actually prohibit any refinery from being built at all, or do they merely require that, like everything else, refineries actually get with the modern world as to safety and pollution standards? ExonMobil made $30 billion clear profit last year, and spent near $13 million in lobbying efforts. But they can't afford to build a refinery with modern technology and up to standards that are not 50 years old? Get a clue. PS Your article failed to mention that the oil companies themselves have shut down 150 refineries in the US in the last 30 years.

Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 1:24:24 PM)
I actually think it's fine and dandy that people who actually deserve it make a lot of money too. We are more on the same page than you might think, and yes, I might have in fact overlooked or not gotten the gist of at least one of the points you made. But please get this one straight: refining capacity is controlled by the oil companies themselves. Any allusion to a government agency being the limiting factor there is being more than disingenuous.

thompsonx -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 2:16:45 PM)
quote: Here you go my friend, when I'm wrong I will admit it but in this case, I'm not. This from your cite quote: For example, Drevna noted that expansion projects at the nation's existing refineries have had the effect of adding the equivalent of a brand new refinery every year. That increase came despite mandates for cleaner gasoline and diesel fuel, which take longer to make. So by your own cite you have been proved wrong...how long will we hold our collective breaths till you admit it?

jlf1961 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 2:20:59 PM)
Actually, the EPA has to grant permits for the construction of new refineries, as well as permits for the modernization and repair to existing refineries. In some recent cases, the EPA standards were not as strict as local air quality standards. However, since congress did not pass new GHG legislation, the Obama administration did use authority of the Clean Air Act to tighten regulations on GHG's which in effect has made it harder for new refineries to get permits to build. Texas Officials, EPA Clash over GHGs While I am all for environmental protection, and will agree that clean air technology has not kept pace with the industry, I will also state that with the industry footing the R&D cost for clean air technology is a bit unfair. Other governments that have signed the Kyoto accords have helped foot the bill for clean air technology, and the US (which has not ratified the Kyoto agreement) leaves the cost to the industry.

thompsonx -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 2:25:45 PM)
Since it is the oil company making the profit why should'nt they foot the bill. If they do not produce clean product in a clean manner the tax payer is the one who would foot the bill for the damage caused.

Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 2:44:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Actually, the EPA has to grant permits for the construction of new refineries, as well as permits for the modernization and repair to existing refineries. Do they now? Really? I think yer just jabbing my ribs here. No, seriously. I mean come on.

jlf1961 -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 2:56:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Actually, the EPA has to grant permits for the construction of new refineries, as well as permits for the modernization and repair to existing refineries. Do they now? Really? I think yer just jabbing my ribs here. No, seriously. I mean come on. quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn I actually think it's fine and dandy that people who actually deserve it make a lot of money too. We are more on the same page than you might think, and yes, I might have in fact overlooked or not gotten the gist of at least one of the points you made. But please get this one straight: refining capacity is controlled by the oil companies themselves. Any allusion to a government agency being the limiting factor there is being more than disingenuous. Your own words indicating that the oil companies control whether or not new refineries are built.

DomKen -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 3:06:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Actually, the EPA has to grant permits for the construction of new refineries, as well as permits for the modernization and repair to existing refineries. In some recent cases, the EPA standards were not as strict as local air quality standards. However, since congress did not pass new GHG legislation, the Obama administration did use authority of the Clean Air Act to tighten regulations on GHG's which in effect has made it harder for new refineries to get permits to build. Texas Officials, EPA Clash over GHGs While I am all for environmental protection, and will agree that clean air technology has not kept pace with the industry, I will also state that with the industry footing the R&D cost for clean air technology is a bit unfair. Other governments that have signed the Kyoto accords have helped foot the bill for clean air technology, and the US (which has not ratified the Kyoto agreement) leaves the cost to the industry. These oil companies operate worldwide so if they have the clean air technology to operate refineries in the Netherlands, home nation of Shell for instance, then we don't need to fund their R&D here. As a general principle governments should not be funding the R&D or the regulatory compliance efforts of some of the most profitable companies in the world.

Edwynn -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 3:20:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Your own words indicating that the oil companies control whether or not new refineries are built. Yes, and that being the indication that the EPA requirements are not the limiting factor in any significant way. We hear the crying from the oil industry that they can't afford to do as every single other industry is required to do in meeting EPA standards where that comes in to play. Please. The 15 highest net profit companies in 2009 are crowded around the $12 billion to $14 billion mark, a good many of them being oil companies. ExonMobil dwarfed them all in having more than double the net profits ($29 + billion) of the next closest company. But they can't build a refinery because it's all the EPA's fault. In reality just saying that they don't want to pay for it, even in the midst of year after year record breaking profits. Except it wasn't the EPA's fault for the oil companies themselves shutting down all those refineries as soon as they bought them. Right. Lots of companies with far less market capitalization and net profits have to play by the rules. The oil companies have been given a free ride far more than other industries for decades. You can argue for more of the same if you like, but some of us are actually paying attention here and have had enough already.

Mezrem -> RE: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans (4/28/2011 3:47:53 PM)
To a degree, I agree with your statement that they control the output. There are without doubt limiting factors one of them being the possable output. The EPA is also one of those factors like it or not. I'm not saying abolish the EPA in some things they do good work. I'm saying loosen the noose or gas prices are going to kill business. Perhaps my explination was lacking so I will state it again. Yes they control what can be fed into a plant. You can't run a machine at 100% for long though. More refining capability will mean more supply and it will drive down prices. That was my point. The EPA restrictions are keeping or perhaps a better way to phrase it would be, have help keep this from happening. quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn I actually think it's fine and dandy that people who actually deserve it make a lot of money too. We are more on the same page than you might think, and yes, I might have in fact overlooked or not gotten the gist of at least one of the points you made. But please get this one straight: refining capacity is controlled by the oil companies themselves. Any allusion to a government agency being the limiting factor there is being more than disingenuous.

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