RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent

RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 2:34:34 PM)
But why? unless you want the initials GOD. Hmmmmmmmm......... uhhhhhhhhh, brb.

outhere69 -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 2:44:49 PM)
FR to hunk-- He knew Giffords from a previous meet and greet. Exchanged about 3 sentences. That's it.

jlf1961 -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 2:50:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: outhere69 FR to hunk-- He knew Giffords from a previous meet and greet. Exchanged about 3 sentences. That's it. And with that, hunk makes the claim they KNEW each other. Christ, I exchange two or three sentences or just say hello to people, that sure the hell dont mean I fucking know them.

juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 5:31:34 PM)
quote: The responsibility factor is on society and the judicial system. If some "feeling" you have stands in the way of people getting better treatment, having reviews of their cases, and processed in a way that better serves society and them, then the problem isn't with the system. Hmmmmm, you ridicule feelings, huh? Yeah, I have feelings about a lot of things. I have a gut reaction to calling all people who are mentally ill "guilty", just like I would have a gut reaction to calling cancer victims "guilty" because of the symptoms of their disease. Now, perhaps, you do not have feelings about things... maybe you might wanna apply for robot work. You see I do not think that it is as cut and dried as all of that. I believe in middle ground... perhaps you have no other ideas on how to handle it, but that does not mean there are not better ideas out there. quote: Your opinion though, but unfortunately a majority one that keeps the system as it is. How about we start treating mental illness as a disease instead of a character flaw, that would be a step in the right direction. How about we destigmatize mental illness,... another step in the right direction.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:02:50 PM)
I hate to interrupt the lively give-and-take, but am I the only one in this thread who understands that being found incompetent to stand trial and being innocent by reason of mental illness are two entirely different things which have nothing to do with each other? Because there are at least a few of you who either don't get that, or didn't read the article.

juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:06:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda I hate to interrupt the lively give-and-take, but am I the only one in this thread who understands that being found incompetent to stand trial and being innocent by reason of mental illness are two entirely different things which have nothing to do with each other? Because there are at least a few of you who either don't get that, or didn't read the article. I know they are two different things. I mention it in an earlier post.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:13:27 PM)
Oh, yeah, you'd know it for sure. Goes without saying. I'm not sure how many others do, though. The two concepts seem to be bandied about interchangeably by a couple of other posters, and it makes for a confusing discussion.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:30:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania Hmmmmm, you ridicule feelings, huh? Ridicule? No. Do I see that they get in the way of doing things better? Often. quote: Yeah, I have feelings about a lot of things. I have a gut reaction to calling all people who are mentally ill "guilty", just like I would have a gut reaction to calling cancer victims "guilty" because of the symptoms of their disease. Now, perhaps, you do not have feelings about things... maybe you might wanna apply for robot work. Insults rarely help intellectual discourse. Maybe you are more used to dealing with a few other posters in this section. The difference in this discussion is that the cancer patient did not commit a felony. Regardless of the reason, the person commited the actions. They are definately not, not guilty, as they committed the actions. quote: You see I do not think that it is as cut and dried as all of that. I believe in middle ground... perhaps you have no other ideas on how to handle it, but that does not mean there are not better ideas out there. You seem to forget my other posts on this, reread them and link them together. In my option there is lots of room for middle ground, and it is in how each case is handled after the BS of the courtroom drama is swept away, and action is taken. The process I proposed has constant review of the person in question. quote: quote: Your opinion though, but unfortunately a majority one that keeps the system as it is. How about we start treating mental illness as a disease instead of a character flaw, that would be a step in the right direction. How about we destigmatize mental illness,... another step in the right direction. Never said it would not be a step in the right direction, but the problem there is in the system itself again. Much of the abnormal behavior that may indicate someone needs serious help is overlooked by those around them, labeled as "just a crime" by the current system, or sensationalized in a negative manner. As I said, the responsibility lies with society first.

TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:38:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania How about we destigmatize mental illness,... Bullshit, Julia. Don't even try for the "it's all societies' fault," argument. It's as lame and immature as the shit you were trying to shovel last night. There are damn good reasons that crazies at the Loughner end of the spectrum are stigmatized. Put one in a room full of (more) sane people, with no preconceived notions about mental illness, no bigotry against the reality challenged. See how long it takes for people to start getting all judgemental about them. Some might become so judgemental as to try to insert themselves into the person's life, to "help" them. Now try to notice I said "at the Loughner end of the spectrum," Julia. Those who cannot participate in a structured activity. The ones who pace and mumble to themselves, or like our local crazy lady, do an aerobic dance to music only she can hear, while hanging out at the busiest intersection in town all day long. Shall we call them the severely impacted? Those folks, and how the rest of us react and respond to them, are not any sort of measure for where we stand with the full range of mental illness.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:41:22 PM)
quote: The difference in this discussion is that the cancer patient did not commit a felony. Regardless of the reason, the person commited the actions. They are definately not, not guilty, as they committed the actions. As i read this thread, this seems to me to be the fundamental flaw in your argument. Just as the cancer patient did not commit a felony, neither did the defendant who was mentally ill at the time of an offense. If the defendant was mentally ill, then a crime was not committed, so he can not be guilty of anything. Thus, there is no justification for punishing him.

TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda If the defendant was mentally ill, then a crime was not committed, so he can not be guilty of anything. Thus, there is no justification for punishing him. Could you expand a bit here, Panda? I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying the Tucson events need to be viewed as without causation, and without blame?

tazzygirl -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:55:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda I hate to interrupt the lively give-and-take, but am I the only one in this thread who understands that being found incompetent to stand trial and being innocent by reason of mental illness are two entirely different things which have nothing to do with each other? Because there are at least a few of you who either don't get that, or didn't read the article. They are two different things, Panda.

tazzygirl -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 7:58:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: The difference in this discussion is that the cancer patient did not commit a felony. Regardless of the reason, the person commited the actions. They are definately not, not guilty, as they committed the actions. As i read this thread, this seems to me to be the fundamental flaw in your argument. Just as the cancer patient did not commit a felony, neither did the defendant who was mentally ill at the time of an offense. If the defendant was mentally ill, then a crime was not committed, so he can not be guilty of anything. Thus, there is no justification for punishing him. Just because someone is mentally unstable does not mean they did not commit a crime. What it means is that they committed the crime while mentally unstable. Perhaps people are having trouble figuring out the difference.

juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:02:42 PM)
quote: Bullshit, Julia. Don't even try for the "it's all societies' fault," argument. It's as lame and immature as the shit you were trying to shovel last night. Aren't you a ray of sunshine! Whenever I see you vehemently against what I say, it confirms in my mind that I am on the right track.... quote: There are damn good reasons that crazies at the Loughner end of the spectrum are stigmatized. Put one in a room full of (more) sane people, with no preconceived notions about mental illness, no bigotry against the reality challenged. See how long it takes for people to start getting all judgemental about them. Some might become so judgemental as to try to insert themselves into the person's life, to "help" them. Now try to notice I said "at the Loughner end of the spectrum," Julia. Those who cannot participate in a structured activity. The ones who pace and mumble to themselves, or like our local crazy lady, do an aerobic dance to music only she can hear, while hanging out at the busiest intersection in town all day long. Shall we call them the severely impacted? Those folks, and how the rest of us react and respond to them, are not any sort of measure for where we stand with the full range of mental illness. Now I know it is hard for you to understand, so let me type S-L-O-W-L-Y... mental illnesses like schizophrenia, are not the fault of society... they are D-I-S-E-A-S-E-S. It isn't like they choose to be mentally ill, it is not like they are all faking it just to piss you off, they are truly SICK. Their brains don't work right....Now, instead of talking about putting mentally people down like animals, or presenting strawmen arguments, like I am saying it is societies fault that schizophrenia exists, how about learning about mental illness instead of talking about how it makes you uncomfortable. The Jared Loughners need to be isolated because they are a threat to themselves and others. Treating people before they get like him is a GOOD idea. In order to get support for treating people like him, you need to create awareness that mental illness is a brain disorder. Now, twist my comments all you want....

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:03:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda If the defendant was mentally ill, then a crime was not committed, so he can not be guilty of anything. Thus, there is no justification for punishing him. Could you expand a bit here, Panda? I may be misunderstanding you. Are you saying the Tucson events need to be viewed as without causation, and without blame? No, I'm saying that causation and guilt are not necessarily the same thing, legally speaking. If someone is legally insane at the time they blow someone's head off, then they did not commit a crime. They may be the cause of the death, but they are not guilty. That's the whole point of a mental illness defense - not guilty by reason of insanity.

juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:05:31 PM)
quote: ust because someone is mentally unstable does not mean they did not commit a crime. What it means is that they committed the crime while mentally unstable. Perhaps people are having trouble figuring out the difference. Mental instability is not the same thing as a psychotic break with reality.... if you had ever witnessed a loved one with a psychotic break with reality, you would know it is not your garden variety emotional meltdown

TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:25:47 PM)
Gotcha. No legal justification for punishing him. Ok. I can agree with that. I'll be standing by my belief the bigger interest of justice (which doesn't always perfectly parallel legal) demands that he be punished.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:27:43 PM)
Then you're not talking about justice, you're only talking about revenge. Let's just call it what it is, and stop pretending it has anything to do with justice.

juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:29:02 PM)
quote: I'll be standing by my belief the bigger interest of justice (which doesn't always perfectly parallel legal) demands that he be punished. Yeah, punishing people who literally do not know their ass from a hole in the ground just gives one the feeling that you got the bad guy, even if the bad guy is in the closet hiding from the reptile people... it just sooooo.... what is the word I am looking for, oh yeah, it is so rewarding to mete out justice no matter why shit happens

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:29:11 PM)
You do realize that there are many studies that show these people were born like this. It is neurological, and organic, and the environment they are raised in often determines whether it manifests in violent ways, or non-first person violence. Schiziphrenia, is as misunderstood as most disorders are that do not have visible outward signs. There are different types of it, as well as different degrees people have. Some can live withon society with little to no threat of those around them, as long as the continue to take their meds and are supervised by professionals. I do not think you and I are too far off on how to approach it, I am just discussing specifically in the cases where they have commited violent acts, and how society should take care of them, including the judicial system. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania The Jared Loughners need to be isolated because they are a threat to themselves and others. Treating people before they get like him is a GOOD idea. In order to get support for treating people like him, you need to create awareness that mental illness is a brain disorder. Now, twist my comments all you want....

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