RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:33:40 PM)

quote:

You do realize that there are many studies that show these people were born like this. It is neurological, and organic, and the environment they are raised in often determines whether it manifests in violent ways, or non-first person violence.


Show me those studies...


quote:

Schiziphrenia, is as misunderstood as most disorders are that do not have visible outward signs. There are different types of it, as well as different degrees people have. Some can live withon society with little to no threat of those around them, as long as the continue to take their meds and are supervised by professionals.

I do not think you and I are too far off on how to approach it, I am just discussing specifically in the cases where they have commited violent acts, and how society should take care of them, including the judicial system.


Yes, and there are different types of cancer that have different origins... etc etc etc...

Criminalizing mental illness is not the way our government should go. We do not put people in jail for other forms of illness....We need to revamp and overhaul our mental healthcare in this country. Many insurances do not cover this care because for some reason, brain diseases aren't considered real diseases.




TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:40:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Then you're not talking about justice, you're only talking about revenge. Let's just call it what it is, and stop pretending it has anything to do with justice. 



Why would you call justice revenge? Revenge is an emotional thing. The facts are that this guy committed acts which are intolerable to civilized people, and he must be removed.




tazzygirl -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:40:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ust because someone is mentally unstable does not mean they did not commit a crime. What it means is that they committed the crime while mentally unstable.

Perhaps people are having trouble figuring out the difference.


Mental instability is not the same thing as a psychotic break with reality.... if you had ever witnessed a loved one with a psychotic break with reality, you would know it is not your garden variety emotional meltdown


Watching a loved one with such a break is different than watching a patient having one. Emotions cause all sorts of reactions. Being guilty has nothing to do with emotions.




juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:46:01 PM)

quote:

Watching a loved one with such a break is different than watching a patient having one. Emotions cause all sorts of reactions. Being guilty has nothing to do with emotions.


Well, my brother never hurt a fly.

My point is that there are mental states where a person cannot form premeditation, they cannot formulate a motivation, or if they have either premeditation or a motivation, it is based on fear for their own life, the idea that they may die... etc etc etc




tazzygirl -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:46:58 PM)

I dont believe that is the case here, do you, julia?




juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:55:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont believe that is the case here, do you, julia?



I do not know... I am not his doctor. I do not know what motivated him, seriously... speculation in the news isn't going to tell me anything.

I think his doctors need to determine this.

This off wikipedia


quote:

Loughner believed in numerous conspiracy theories and espoused views such as: the United States Government was responsible for the September 11 attacks;[31] a New World Order would bring about a one world currency; there would be a 2012 apocalypse; NASA had faked spaceflights; and the government was using mind control to brainwash people by controlling grammar. He was a member of the message board Above Top Secret though members of the site did not respond warmly to his posts.[28][32][33][34] Reports appearing after the shooting noted similarities between the statements made by Loughner concerning grammar and mind control and the views of conspiracy theorist David Wynn Miller.[35] Miller stated, "He's just repeating things I've had up on my site the past 11 years."[36][37] According to Zach Osler, the online conspiracy theory film Zeitgeist: The Movie affected Loughner's view of the world. Loughner believed that most people in the country are brainwashed and are unaware that nothing is real. Loughner became obsessed with controlling what he perceived to be lucid dreams.[10][38][39][40]



The above portions that bolded....Schizophrenics often have delusions that some force outside of them controls their behavior. It is one of the things that schizophrenics typically believe. There are different manifestations of this... such as aliens controlling them, someone having a button that controls them, the sensation of being a puppet, etc. I do not know how his delusions fed into his paranoia, or why he thought Giffords should be shot. Maybe he thought some force outside of himself was pulling the trigger? It is a common delusion for people with this variety of mental illness to have.




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 8:57:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Then you're not talking about justice, you're only talking about revenge. Let's just call it what it is, and stop pretending it has anything to do with justice. 



Why would you call justice revenge? Revenge is an emotional thing. The facts are that this guy committed acts which are intolerable to civilized people, and he must be removed.



It's not justice. If the defendant was mentally ill, they did not what they were doing. You want to "punish" them for something for which they are not responsible. just because you can't stand the idea that somebody isn't going to pay. That's purely emotional, nothing but simple vengeance, and has nothing to do with justice.




TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:05:51 PM)

Edit please, Panda

(dammit! did you do that on purpose?)




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:06:50 PM)

What happened? What'd I miss?

What'd I do...?




TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:08:13 PM)

If they did not what???




ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:17:24 PM)

Huh? Oh, shit. How'd that happen? They did not know what they were doing. Sorry 'bout  that!




TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:28:10 PM)

Thank you! I was all confuzzled and stuff!

6 people died, and many more have suffered, because of what this young man did, Panda. The dualism of mind and body can sometimes be taken a bit too far.

I'm not picky about how we accomplish it, or what words we write on what forms, or what the letterhead of the final residence might say. He needs to be permanently removed from society. Now I know what I think is the best way to do that, but why turn an interesting discussion of mental illness into another dp thread?





juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:50:56 PM)

quote:

I'm not picky about how we accomplish it, or what words we write on what forms, or what the letterhead of the final residence might say. He needs to be permanently removed from society. Now I know what I think is the best way to do that, but why turn an interesting discussion of mental illness into another dp thread?



Yes, lots of sick fuckers in this world that should be taken out of civilized society....




TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:54:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Yes, lots of sick fuckers in this world that should be taken out of civilized society....



Yes. I'm sure you do feel that way, Julia. And do you feel you're qualified to pick?




Marini -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 9:56:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Oh, yeah, you'd know it for sure. Goes without saying. I'm not sure how many others do, though. The two concepts seem to be bandied about interchangeably by a couple of other posters, and it makes for a confusing discussion. 


Great point, I am guilty of straying.

My point is, many are deemed competent to stand trial, and suffer from serious mental illness, and close to at least half those in jail have varying degrees of "mental illness", and more than a few have severe mental illness and are in jail or on death row.

I agree, as in almost all posts on a message board, people are chatting about several different issues within the OP.

Panda poo, show me a thread in which this ain't happening.
Rare is the topic in which people take the OP, and don't alter it, turn it upside down, and go places way off in left and right field.
I don't mind this as long as people are dancing in and around the OP, and not ignoring the OP.




juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 10:08:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Yes, lots of sick fuckers in this world that should be taken out of civilized society....



Yes. I'm sure you do feel that way, Julia. And do you feel you're qualified to pick?


You seem to believe you are well qualified for that....




tazzygirl -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 10:33:12 PM)

quote:

The above portions that bolded....Schizophrenics often have delusions that some force outside of them controls their behavior.


Take a look around these boards, julia. If that is your belief, then you are arguing with people who are mentally ill, which in itself is a cruelty. You can believe you are being controlled/persecuted and still not be schizophrenic.




TheHeretic -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 10:34:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You seem to believe you are well qualified for that....


Six coffins make a compelling case. [8|]






tazzygirl -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/26/2011 10:36:42 PM)

quote:

It's not justice. If the defendant was mentally ill, they did not what they were doing. You want to "punish" them for something for which they are not responsible. just because you can't stand the idea that somebody isn't going to pay. That's purely emotional, nothing but simple vengeance, and has nothing to do with justice.


Hmm.. I know this isnt aimed at me, but I dont believe they should be removed because of what they did, but because they can easily do so again.

If they cannot take responsibility for their own actions, then how can you decide they wont repeat those actions?




juliaoceania -> RE: Judge: Ariz. shooting suspect mentally incompetent (5/27/2011 7:03:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The above portions that bolded....Schizophrenics often have delusions that some force outside of them controls their behavior.


Take a look around these boards, julia. If that is your belief, then you are arguing with people who are mentally ill, which in itself is a cruelty. You can believe you are being controlled/persecuted and still not be schizophrenic.



Tazzy, that is ONE of the symptoms. I did not say it was the ONLY symptom. Not all people who believe in conspiracies are schizophrenic. If you believe that some external force outside of yourself is controlling your behavior, then you might well be schizophrenic, but it is only one indicator. If you notice, I do not spend much time debating conspiracy theories with people on this board, even though most of them do not seem schizophrenic to me.

You say you worked with schizophrenics. I am somewhat surprised you didn't know that schizophrenics had delusional beliefs such as what I have described,... it is a little like Schizophrenic 101.

quote:



Delusions
A delusion is a firmly-held idea that a person has despite clear and obvious evidence that it isn’t true. Delusions are extremely common in schizophrenia, occurring in more than 90% of those who have the disorder. Often, these delusions involve illogical or bizarre ideas or fantasies. Common schizophrenic delusions include:

Delusions of persecution – Belief that others, often a vague “they,” are out to get him or her. These persecutory delusions often involve bizarre ideas and plots (e.g. “Martians are trying to poison me with radioactive particles delivered through my tap water”).

Delusions of reference – A neutral environmental event is believed to have a special and personal meaning. For example, a person with schizophrenia might believe a billboard or a person on TV is sending a message meant specifically for them.

Delusions of grandeur – Belief that one is a famous or important figure, such as Jesus Christ or Napolean. Alternately, delusions of grandeur may involve the belief that one has unusual powers that no one else has (e.g. the ability to fly).

Delusions of control – Belief that one’s thoughts or actions are being controlled by outside, alien forces. Common delusions of control include thought broadcasting (“My private thoughts are being transmitted to others”), thought insertion (“Someone is planting thoughts in my head”), and thought withdrawal (“The CIA is robbing me of my thoughts”).




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