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Brain -> Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/17/2011 9:08:21 PM)

This is a good article on atheism. Hopefully in the future atheists will be in the majority and religious people in the minority. I'm of the opinion the world at that time will be more peaceful and cooperative. I wonder which states in America are the ones that have the most freedom from religion and if they have a better quality of life.



Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post
By Gregory Paul


After the repeal of “don’t ask, don’t tell,” it occurred to me that gays were making greater strides than atheists and agnostics in popular acceptance. Support for gay marriage is now at majority level. American anti-atheism that sees the nonreligious as a dangerous foreign element dates to the early years of the republic, with Christians being the main perpetrators. Never mind that a number of founders, including crafters of the Declaration of Independence, were deists, or that the writers of the Constitution were careful to state that the power of the government derives from “We the people,” not “We the people under God.” And the Cold War did not help matters, causing many Americans to conclude that being ungodly meant somehow being in league with the atheistic commie Reds, while true-blue Americans (before blue meant liberal Democrat) were faith-based churchgoers.

There is no excuse for discrimination that is as under the radar as it is persistent. I realized things were really cooking when I received a message that the column was exploding on Facebook (the recommends are now over 81,000). It may be the most read atheist text since the best sellers of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens.


Nontheists are not meekly asking for full acceptance and citizenship any more than blacks did after the World War II, or gays did after Stonewall. We are telling you observant Christians, Jews, Muslims, et al., to be as respectful to us atheists as you are to other believers. Do the right thing! After all, remember what Thomas Jefferson said in 1787: “Question with boldness even the existence of God.” Where the response to the great popularity of my article has been inadequate is among the media, which continue to pay the chronic anti-atheism problem the minimal attention they always have.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/guest-voices/post/atheists-fed-up-believe-it/2011/06/16/AGThoUXH_blog.html




Fellow -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 12:33:54 PM)

I believe, there is really no discrimination against atheists (show me where). "Public acceptance" needs to be earned, it can not be forced from above. How do you intend to legislate philosophical (political) point of view? 



DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 12:58:16 PM)

A fairly well known example is the Boy Scouts. Atheists are not allowed to join and anyone found to be an atheist is ejected.

This is a story about a math teacher fired for being an atheist, not for anything she said or did in front of students.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-29-fired28_ST_N.htm



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 1:16:22 PM)

quote:

A fairly well known example is the Boy Scouts. Atheists are not allowed to join and anyone found to be an atheist is ejected.


As long as they do not take public monies, I see no problem with that.


And as far as the teacher being fired for being an atheist, she had legal recourse as a protected "religious" minority, and this is why she can sue to right that wrong. Religion is a protected category under the constitution.

I am an agnostic. I am not a Christian. I have never suffered any sort of religious intolerance, nor have I ever suffered from discrimination. I am not saying it doesn't happen... but I do not think I would equate being an atheist to being gay as far as discrimination goes. It isn't even on the same planet as far as I am concerned. I do not think I have ever even heard of someone being lynched for being an atheist, for example.

I think part of the reason why atheists get flack is that they think that they should engage in the same sort of behaviors as annoying Christian people take part in. Some atheists are not happy with saying..."Well, I do not believe there is a god", nope, they have to shit on what everyone else believes in, and then say "I am so fucking abused"

I have little patience for Christians who want to pray for me, preach at me, or otherwise push their beliefs on me... and I would say on average that atheists engage in such behaviors at least as often as Christians do.... there are just more Christians per capita, so it feels like there is more of this behavior on their side.

I joined a free thought society when I was attending Fresno State. I joined it because I found the Christian presence on campus almost intolerable when I was walking to and from my classes... people preaching at me, people attempting to hand me christian propaganda.... etc etc etc. So, what I discovered was that I wasn't fully accepted because I was not an atheist, and further I did not have the agenda of destroying religion, I just wanted to walk to classes without being shout down by religious fanatics.

I have issues with religious nutbaggery, but I also have issues with nonreligious nutbaggery... meaning people that are offended that religious people even exist and want everyone to abandon their religion and to become atheists, like them....

Just my observations...







DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 1:51:14 PM)

Ateists had to press numerous lawsuits to force the Boy Scouts to stop taking government money.

As to the teacher, she was not proteted. She was fired and had to fight for her unemployment benefits. The employer's lawyer said this during the unemployment hearing "She should be denied unemployment benefits for being a member of an atheist website." Luckily the judge ruled in her favor.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 2:03:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ateists had to press numerous lawsuits to force the Boy Scouts to stop taking government money.

As to the teacher, she was not proteted. She was fired and had to fight for her unemployment benefits. The employer's lawyer said this during the unemployment hearing "She should be denied unemployment benefits for being a member of an atheist website." Luckily the judge ruled in her favor.


I looked at the link... I did not realize it was a parochial school. I think she should be given unemployment, but I also believe as a private religious school they should have the right to hire people who adhere to their faith. I have this opinion of a few different industries and occupations, that by their very nature they fall outside protection... one of those would be employment with a religious organization... as long as that organization does not accept public money (thinking of Bush's faith based initiative).


When we have an issue, we go to court for the courts to decide whether or not we have a case, and what the remedy for the wrong should be. These are civil cases... and the penalty is monetary.


I will stick to what I said, to compare being an atheist to being black or gay just seems laughable to me. If I am gay I have to hide my mate to escape detection. If I am black I cannot hide it. If I am an atheist and I do not want it to be an issue for me, I can just not mention it, and no one even knows... and I cannot understate the fact that there has been no system of discrimination used to keep atheists from using a certain restaurant, or living in a certain neighborhood.




Aylee -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 2:05:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ateists had to press numerous lawsuits to force the Boy Scouts to stop taking government money.

As to the teacher, she was not proteted. She was fired and had to fight for her unemployment benefits. The employer's lawyer said this during the unemployment hearing "She should be denied unemployment benefits for being a member of an atheist website." Luckily the judge ruled in her favor.


I believe that she was employed at a private religious school and the grounds had to do with the contract she signed. She was not employed at a public school.
quote:


I have issues with religious nutbaggery, but I also have issues with nonreligious nutbaggery... meaning people that are offended that religious people even exist and want everyone to abandon their religion and to become atheists, like them....


Well perhaps Armageddon IS coming, I agree with Julia about something. [:D]

I do think that it is absolutely ridiculous that the OP thinks that atheism would lead to:
quote:

the world at that time will be more peaceful and cooperative
[8|]

Stamping out religion has never worked out well for the average person.






DarkSteven -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 2:25:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain
We are telling you observant Christians, Jews, Muslims, et al., to be as respectful to us atheists as you are to other believers.


FFS!  Does this guy understand how INtolerant religions are of each other?  Check into how Ireland has been, or the Arab nations. 



FullCircle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 2:33:44 PM)

Is he saying he is a believer and does this make him an atheisn't?



Aylee -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 2:56:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Is he saying he is a believer and does this make him an atheisn't?


I think that this whole thing makes him a person who has not really thought things through.



DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 2:58:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Ateists had to press numerous lawsuits to force the Boy Scouts to stop taking government money.

As to the teacher, she was not proteted. She was fired and had to fight for her unemployment benefits. The employer's lawyer said this during the unemployment hearing "She should be denied unemployment benefits for being a member of an atheist website." Luckily the judge ruled in her favor.


I believe that she was employed at a private religious school and the grounds had to do with the contract she signed. She was not employed at a public school.

So what? Was she or was she not fired for being an atheist?



Kirata -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 3:08:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Was she or was she not fired for being an atheist?

She was not. She was fired "for violating a policy that prohibits employees from advocating 'principles contrary' to the teachings of the church." Atheism, per se, had nothing to do with it. She would have been just as fired if she had publicly advocated any of a dozen other things.

Ferchrissake, did you even bother to read the story you're commenting on?

K.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 3:20:01 PM)

It sounds like a facebook privacy issue, more than anything

She isn't even an atheist...lol



DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 3:35:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Was she or was she not fired for being an atheist?

She was not. She was fired "for violating a policy that prohibits employees from advocating 'principles contrary' to the teachings of the church." Atheism, per se, had nothing to do with it. She would have been just as fired if she had publicly advocated any of a dozen other things.

Ferchrissake, did you even bother to read the story you're commenting on?

K.

Yes I read the story including teh part where she said she had never mentioned her lack of faith to her students. So what precisely did she advocate?



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 4:10:00 PM)

quote:

Nurre was suspended by Monsignor Kevin McCoy and later fired by the school board for violating a policy that prohibits employees from advocating "principles contrary" to the teachings of the church.


That seems pretty specific to me... she agreed to certain things when she accepted employment.


Now, this article would be better suited as a warning for people who think that their facebooks are private when they are not. It also would be a good example of a case in which someone lost a job for what they posted on the internet, and a discussion of if that should be allowed (employers to discriminate based upon facebook use).

Anyways... are there any other examples of atheists being discriminated against at jobs that are not affiliated with a church?



FullCircle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 4:18:41 PM)

Well I've not seen many atheists employed as priests so I think that needs looking at. Hopefully the church will introduce a positive discrimination drive and end this pattern.



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 4:35:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Well I've not seen many atheists employed as priests so I think that needs looking at. Hopefully the church will introduce a positive discrimination drive and end this pattern.


You are joking, right?.... Just making sure.



FullCircle -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 4:39:10 PM)

Am I....? You just never know for sure with the internet these days.



DomKen -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 4:49:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Anyways... are there any other examples of atheists being discriminated against at jobs that are not affiliated with a church?

Of course, it happens all the time
http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/05/21/el-dorado-chiropractic-fires-woman-for-being-an-atheist.htm
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/27752-texas-teacher-suspended-for-being-liberal-and-an-atheist
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x834975
http://www.wate.com/story/1626086/lawyer-says-atheists-discrimination-case-settled?redirected=true



juliaoceania -> RE: Atheists fed up? Believe it! - Guest Voices - The Washington Post (6/18/2011 5:07:27 PM)

quote:

Of course, it happens all the time
http://atheism.about.com/b/2009/05/21/el-dorado-chiropractic-fires-woman-for-being-an-atheist.htm


This article, the chiropractor denies that he fired the employee because of her husband's atheism.. this is still being litigated, and because a court has not ruled on the matter, I think it is hard to use this case as proof of anything


quote:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/blog_posts/27752-texas-teacher-suspended-for-being-liberal-and-an-atheist


This case still did not go to court, there is no proof that anyone was fired for being an atheist (being liberal is not a protected category...btw)


quote:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x834975



I cannot access the original article, so therefore I cannot determine who the "investigator" was that found the discrimination


quote:

http://www.wate.com/story/1626086/lawyer-says-atheists-discrimination-case-settled?redirected=true


At least this case was "settled", which tends to support the fact that there may have been an excellent case... but it was settled without any sort of admission that discrimination took place..

Now, you say "It happens all of the time", and yet 3 out of 4 of the cases you submitted as proof of it never went to court, and are just accusations.

The last one at least had some sort of court case revolving around the allegation... but even more funny to me is that in this case there was no firing... from the link provided

quote:

REENEVILLE (AP) -- An attorney says a quarter-million-dollar religious discrimination lawsuit filed by an atheist has been settled.

Kingsport lawyer Charlton DeVault represents Carletta Sims, the Tennessee director of American Atheists Incorporated. He says Sims' lawsuit against CitiGroup was settled by arbitration in Knoxville.

DeVault says terms of the settlement two weeks ago prevent him from revealing the amount.

Sims initially sued a company called ACS in December 2001, claiming she was fired because of her atheism. CitiGroup later bought the business.

The case hinged on company managers honoring the requests of two Christian employees to be moved to work stations away from Sims, creating the appearance of preferential treatment.



Now, who knows, maybe there was preferential treatment, or maybe citigroup didn't think it was worth fighting about?


I will repeat, I am not saying that atheists are never discriminated against. I think they probably are. I think there are Christians, Muslims and Jews who are discriminated against, too... lets face it, this topic generates a lot of heat from every side, which is why we protect people's rights to religious freedom in the first place. If there weren't people who were abusing their power, religious freedom would never have been an issue in the first place.

My point, which I will repeat, is that discrimination against atheists is not on par with discrimination against race and sexual orientation (as the OP stated). I see discrimination against anyone to be wrong, this is why we have courts to address the issue.... hopefully the hyperbole about the amount of discrimination against atheists will not lead people to roll their eyes when a real case of it comes along.



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