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RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 10:42:56 AM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I haven't eaten pork in ages, but the best hog I ever ate was fed on the scraps from tossed away vegetables, especially lettuce. A home grown animal fed on home grown garden refuse.

That's all the meat I eat any more, home grown backyard farm grown animals fed on good fruit and vegetables and grass and acorns.

I took a tiny bite of pork at a restaurant that someone had urged me to taste because he thought it was really good. I nearly had to spit it out. I really can't stand the texture or taste of mass produced meat, and my taste buds reject it violently. The difference is quite extreme.

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Post #: 81

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 10:44:46 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I haven't eaten pork in ages, but the best hog I ever ate was fed on the scraps from tossed away vegetables, especially lettuce. A home grown animal fed on home grown garden refuse.

I love me some pork flavored whole milk.

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Post #: 82

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 10:47:32 AM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy
Even before I would get serious about that other brand- I would have to look it up. I dont even know if raw milk is allowed in PA.

A) who gives a shit whether it is "allowed" by the nanny state, and B) you don't want a "brand", you want to find a local backyard farmer with a much loved small herd of happy cows and clean milking and animal care practices.

NC law says you can only sell raw milk for "pet" consumption. I guarantee that at the typical prices good raw milk can command, Fido ain't getting any.

quote:

I was very disappointed when I thought the eggs were going to be good just because it was a farmers market. They were the SAME store eggs- other then that 1st dozen that I bought from them.

How the eggs taste depend on what the chickens get to eat. If they are on pasture and get grass, bugs, worms, fruit, vegetables, etc, the eggs will be fabulous. If they are kept in smaller pens and fed only commercial feed, not so much. Know your chickens, or risk getting bad eggs.

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Post #: 83

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 10:52:51 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
I haven't eaten pork in ages, but the best hog I ever ate was fed on the scraps from tossed away vegetables, especially lettuce. A home grown animal fed on home grown garden refuse.

That's all the meat I eat any more, home grown backyard farm grown animals fed on good fruit and vegetables and grass and acorns.

I took a tiny bite of pork at a restaurant that someone had urged me to taste because he thought it was really good. I nearly had to spit it out. I really can't stand the texture or taste of mass produced meat, and my taste buds reject it violently. The difference is quite extreme.

Lol Yeah but the FDA says it's tasty and A-OK for consumption.

As a side note, I wonder if farm corps have ever tried what the tobacco industry did with cigs. It's a completely unfounded hunch but I've almost halved my consumption of food since I started eating better products. Surely I contribute a good deal of that to enjoying the experience of eating a meal now and have slowed my pace which has caused me to feel full on less..so it's more or less a wild thought versus anything else.

I don't put it pass large corp to try it, that's all.

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Post #: 84

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 2:41:47 PM

Edwynn

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I'm a lifelong slow eater, Icarys, and I hear you on the quality vs. quantity thing. I was a skinny near-anemic kid, so maybe my body had me do that to get everything I could out of a meal, since my problem was also described as 'insufficient assimilation.' When I was young, I could eat two very overloaded platefuls at thanksgiving, and at least another half plate beyond that. I can't believe how much I used to be able to eat.

Funny, but I gained weight in my 10 years as a bonafide vegetarian and near vegan. I highly recommend going at least a month without any animal anything at all. What it does is re-tune or re-adjust the body, so you get a lot more out of all food, meat included, and so then don't need to gorge as much as we might have let commercials and adverts talk our body into thinking. This skinny person gained weight and a somewhat plump co-worker lost weight on essentially the same diet. When you eat right, the body figures out how to do the right thing.

But I like the discussion here. It's more about paying attention to what goes into the body rather than 'vegetarian' or whatever else. And supporting the local people who live the lifestyle of producing this food.

Some people think that we cannot sustain ourselves in the absence of GM crops and mass production husbandry, but I see the growers who are actually good at this show up with one or two stuffed-full trucks of food at the farmer's market and sell out by 1:00 PM or sometimes by 11 o'clock. That seems to be a slight contradiction, but I see more growers going this way every year, so maybe not. Nobody goes away hungry, just mildly disappointed if they show up too late.

- To pa hunk -

'Organic' certification is a pain in the butt, the USDA calculation of that is not exactly reliable, and every state has their own criteria. When I dug into it 15 years ago, Texas had the highest standards and California the lowest. The reason for Cali's low rating, as was explained to me by local (NC) growers, was to make it easier for large farms to make the transition, since that state has so many large farms. It doesn't matter to me. I have actually visited my two local growers in NC, one 'certified' and one not, and they do things the same way; no chemical pesticides, etc. There are actually natural pesticides, even if they don't have the '100% kill factor' of the other variety, and they both buy 'beneficial insects,' that is, bugs who eat the bugs that try to eat the plants, every year.

As for myself, I can deal with everything not being 'perfect' if I know the growers and I see them making the good effort. I always buy at least a few things from those who are in transition, and I talk to them and encourage them.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/26/2011 2:44:06 PM >

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Post #: 85

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 3:08:42 PM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Funny, but I gained weight in my 10 years as a bonafide vegetarian and near vegan. I highly recommend going at least a month without any animal anything at all. What it does is re-tune or re-adjust the body, so you get a lot more out of all food, meat included, and so then don't need to gorge as much as we might have let commercials and adverts talk our body into thinking. This skinny person gained weight and a somewhat plump co-worker lost weight on essentially the same diet. When you eat right, the body figures out how to do the right thing.

But I like the discussion here. It's more about paying attention to what goes into the body rather than 'vegetarian' or whatever else. And supporting the local people who live the lifestyle of producing this food.

About 3 or 4 years ago I had serious health issues, thyroid and anemia acting up, oddly the medication for one influenced the other, I had the a-typical reaction of losing massive amounts of weight while being hypothyroid, when I was near 90lbs and kept fainting, they tried everything, I felt I was living sorely on medication while barely having the strength to stand up and walk. Gaunt doesn't quite describe it. I went into a health food store in deepest darkest Wales, wanted ginger as I was freezing all the time, the owner took one look at me and said "Listen, I don't want to sell you a ton of rubbish but you need to clean out your system, you are in a bad state!" We had a chat and he convinced me to do a cleansing diet, his point was to get the whole stuff out of my body as it was overladen with meds, he said usually people will lose weight on that diet but I possibly will gain. My other half did it with me and it was brutal, no processed food, no coffee, just very basic, organic stuff. 30 days and I gained much needed 10 lbs, other half lost 15 lbs. Anemia disappeared, taste buds changed, I do it once a year now as bad habits have a way of creeping in again, my whole life style and eating habits have changed, and I wasn't eating fast food or crap before, always been mainly vegetarian, but it's really amazing which difference the right kind of food can make. I decided there is no point in treating my body less well than my car, I can always buy a new car, but getting a new body is a bit more difficult.... I'm kinda attached to it.

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Post #: 86

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 9:24:54 PM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Lol Yeah but the FDA says it's tasty and A-OK for consumption.

The FDA can suck my dick.

quote:

As a side note, I wonder if farm corps have ever tried what the tobacco industry did with cigs. It's a completely unfounded hunch but I've almost halved my consumption of food since I started eating better products. Surely I contribute a good deal of that to enjoying the experience of eating a meal now and have slowed my pace which has caused me to feel full on less..so it's more or less a wild thought versus anything else.

It's less about farming and more about adding fat, salt and refined sugar in literally addictive quantities on the manufacturing end. And yes, they certainly do. Anything that makes the consumer buy more, they do that.

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Post #: 87

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 9:37:36 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"People buy 2% and skim... which IS watered down."

You speak the truth Herr Hunkster.

Uhhhh, no he doesnt. Low fat milks are not "watered down" whole milk ainec.

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Post #: 88

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/26/2011 11:23:46 PM

Termyn8or

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"Low fat milks are not "watered down" whole milk ainec. "

That is correct. Why don't you tell us what they do with what they take out of it ?

T^T

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Post #: 89

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/27/2011 1:43:35 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
About 3 or 4 years ago I had serious health issues, thyroid and anemia acting up, oddly the medication for one influenced the other, I had the a-typical reaction of losing massive amounts of weight while being hypothyroid, when I was near 90lbs and kept fainting, they tried everything, I felt I was living sorely on medication while barely having the strength to stand up and walk. Gaunt doesn't quite describe it. I went into a health food store in deepest darkest Wales, wanted ginger as I was freezing all the time, the owner took one look at me and said "Listen, I don't want to sell you a ton of rubbish but you need to clean out your system, you are in a bad state!" We had a chat and he convinced me to do a cleansing diet, his point was to get the whole stuff out of my body as it was overladen with meds, he said usually people will lose weight on that diet but I possibly will gain. My other half did it with me and it was brutal, no processed food, no coffee, just very basic, organic stuff. 30 days and I gained much needed 10 lbs, other half lost 15 lbs. Anemia disappeared, taste buds changed, I do it once a year now as bad habits have a way of creeping in again, my whole life style and eating habits have changed, and I wasn't eating fast food or crap before, always been mainly vegetarian, but it's really amazing which difference the right kind of food can make. I decided there is no point in treating my body less well than my car, I can always buy a new car, but getting a new body is a bit more difficult.... I'm kinda attached to it.

Thank you LadyKonstanze (sorry, I felt the need to honour die deutsche Schreibung, even though Lake Konstanz is called Bodensee by the natives on the North shore of it). But Lady C it is from here on out.

That is a great story. I don't know which particular cleansing diet you were on, but mine was a lot of juicing, so much that I could hardly eat when I was in the deepest part of it.

But what you point out is that you still have to figure out what your own body needs, and the simple "veggie" vs. "non-veggie" will not settle the issue by itself. And neither will the low-carb/high-carb or low-protein/high-protien, nor whatever other 'high selling' plans do the same thing for everybody.

Most people can experiment 2-4 weeks on whatever plan they want without doing great harm, and then figure out which one is doing what they need.

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Post #: 90

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/27/2011 1:51:29 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer
It's less about farming and more about adding fat, salt and refined sugar in literally addictive quantities on the manufacturing end. And yes, they certainly do. Anything that makes the consumer buy more, they do that.

That is dead on the money, LadyNT.

It's all about the food scientists' perfect blend of the salt/fat/sugar combo. But don't forget about the consistency or 'mouth-feel' element; crunchy, 'smooth and creamy,' etc.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 6/27/2011 1:53:58 AM >

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Post #: 91

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/27/2011 2:17:38 AM

LadyConstanze

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Having spent a considerable amount of time in Germany, I'm aware of Konstanz, and you're right the lake is actually the Bodensee, though my name is actually the Italian version Constanza is one of my first names, just for most Germans and Americans it does look a bit weird, so I used the Germanized version...

Gosh, I have to look up what the diet was called, I had to take certain supplements, it was basically split up 3 times 10 days, cut out all dairy products, psyllium husks before every meal, 3 liters of water a day, the last 10 days lean beef or fish was allowed, the only grains allowed was rice, limited fruit, as many vegetables as possible, 5 small meals over the course of the day... Would have to dig the list out, but it was just basically a 10 day cleanse, then building up and nourishing your health.

I was more than skeptic, sounded a bit like a flash in the pan thing, first 2 days I had a dreadful headache, but he predicted it and basically said it's the body getting rid of all the toxins, then I felt a bit low for the rest of the 10 day cleansing period, once that was over, I was surprised how energetic I was. The way the guy explained it was that my system was simply clocked up with all the meds I got, and the docs trying out stuff, he said I needed to have a good clean out, then some things might work again, possibly even without meds, but if I need them the body could actually process them instead of just shutting down. Possibly won't work for everybody but it worked for me, as a lovely side effect, when doing the diet I lost all desire for nicotine, cigarettes just didn't taste right anymore and it was kinda nice to give that up without going through the whole "Must have cigarettes, arrrrghhhh, climbing up walls, nicotine, give me nicotine..." phase. Of course I started again, but before that I was a 2 to 3 packs a day girl, now it's 3 to 5 cigs a day and I mainly do a Clinton and don't inhale... They're more of a ritual, lighting a ciggy in the morning on the porch or the balcony with a cup of coffee, having a few puffs and watching the smoke from the burning ciggy. On occasion I do enjoy a cigarette or a cigar with friends, but just a completely different approach, it's enjoyment, I know it's not good for me but it's a treat instead of having a fix for a craving.

Before that, I'd say apart from the smoking and an addiction to Diet Pepsi (I can't stand the taste of anything with artificial sweetener anymore) I was eating healthier than most people, but that experiment showed me that it's not about eating stuff that is healthy, but what is right for your body, and a diet somebody might thrive on can be completely wrong for somebody else. I think it's quite important that people know their own nutritional needs. If I want to feel good and healthy and have a lot of energy, I have to leave meat out of my diet, fish and seafood is wonderful, but with meat I get all sorts of problems from feeling sluggish to downright sick, not a problem, never liked it anyway. Other half is a meat eater and functions best when he has some meat in his diet, we compromise (I do most of the cooking as we don't want to court poisoning), once or twice a week meat is part of the diet, I can just eat the veg, but no matter what kinda meat we buy, it's from a local butcher who only has organically raised meat from local farmers. The animals had a normal life outside where they ate grass, they weren't shipped across several countries, stressed out and terrified... As an additional bonus, he went from being close to 20 stone down to 14 stone over the past few years without starving or too much calorie counting. It also did wonders for his libido (hey, I got to get something out of it too, after all I'm doing the cooking)

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Post #: 92

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/27/2011 5:19:52 AM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Low fat milks are not "watered down" whole milk ainec. "

That is correct. Why don't you tell us what they do with what they take out of it ?

T^T

Coffee on keyboard!! LMAO. He would have to pull one of your old posts to tell you that Term.

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Post #: 93

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/27/2011 11:38:14 AM

Termyn8or

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"Anything that makes the consumer buy more, they do that. "

Listen to the Lady. Just what do they do with it ? No businessman in their right mind would lower profits by turning part of the product into waste, at least willingly. We know where all the good stuff that used to be in the salt goes, what about the milk ? I tend to think if they can't sell it they ain't going to extract it.

Ever see skim milk ? I have. You set it in the fridge in a big mason jar and the cream comes to the top. You pour it off. It was used to make homemade icecream. What was left was skim milk, which we had to drink sometimes if we wanted icecream. It beat the shit out of store boughten and that's why we did it. Have any idea how much time and trouble it takes ? I don't know the actual recipe, that's for the Womenfolk. The Menfolk need to get the ice and the salt, and elbow grease to crank the machine. That's right, no fancy electric motor on it. But the Women were at it almost all day and then it takes a while to crank it.

Can't really do that anymore. With real milk you can actually make butter. I've seen it done with store boughten, but is it the same ? Doubt it. And I think I did mention that I've stopped drinking milk, but now try to eat more things like cheese or sour cream. In a way, cheese is moldy milk. That means something could live in it. I have a hard time trusting things like milk that has a shelf life numbered in months rather than weeks. If the bugs and bacteria won't eat it, I should ?

I don't eat peas often. You know how they separate peas from nightshade ? Why is the milk homogenized ? I am capable of shaking it up before drinking it. Pasteurization doesn't really bother me because how do I know where that milk has been ? If I knew for sure it would be different, and it was on the farm. Dip into that big vat in the barn and have at it. We had bales of hay, we knew what them cows were eating.

T^T

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Post #: 94

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/28/2011 8:55:11 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu
Most 'green' products are just a gullibility tax: remember, hormones used on cattles can't affect humans; imagine a large square block [bovine growth hormone] trying to get into a small round hole [human growth hormone receptor]: literally impossible.
So if you like the taste of Jersey milk better than Holstein [small producer vs large producer], fine, and by the way, I agree. But there is no taste variation with 'hormone' milk.

How much do you know about factory farming? After reading about how the animals are tortured, I can't in good conscience buy conventionally raised meat.

http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/

...Which brings us–reluctantly, necessarily–to the American factory farm, the place where all such distinctions turn to dust. It’s not easy to draw lines between pain and suffering in a modern egg or confinement hog operation. These are places where the subtleties of moral philosophy and animal cognition mean less than nothing, where everything we’ve learned about animals at least since Darwin has been simply . . . set aside. To visit a modern CAFO (Confined Animal Feeding Operation) is to enter a world that, for all its technological sophistication, is still designed according to Cartesian principles: animals are machines incapable of feeling pain. Since no thinking person can possibly believe this any more, industrial animal agriculture depends on a suspension of disbelief on the part of the people who operate it and a willingness to avert your eyes on the part of everyone else.

From everything I’ve read, egg and hog operations are the worst. Beef cattle in America at least still live outdoors, albeit standing ankle deep in their own waste eating a diet that makes them sick. And broiler chickens, although they do get their beaks snipped off with a hot knife to keep them from cannibalizing one another under the stress of their confinement, at least don’t spend their eight-week lives in cages too small to ever stretch a wing. That fate is reserved for the American laying hen, who passes her brief span piled together with a half-dozen other hens in a wire cage whose floor a single page of this magazine could carpet. Every natural instinct of this animal is thwarted, leading to a range of behavioral “vices” that can include cannibalizing her cagemates and rubbing her body against the wire mesh until it is featherless and bleeding. Pain? Suffering? Madness? The operative suspension of disbelief depends on more neutral descriptors, like “vices” and “stress.” Whatever you want to call what’s going on in those cages, the 10 percent or so of hens that can’t bear it and simply die is built into the cost of production. And when the output of the others begins to ebb, the hens will be “force-molted”–starved of food and water and light for several days in order to stimulate a final bout of egg laying before their life’s work is done.

Simply reciting these facts, most of which are drawn from poultry-trade magazines, makes me sound like one of those animal people, doesn’t it? I don’t mean to, but this is what can happen when . . . you look. It certainly wasn’t my intention to ruin anyone’s breakfast. But now that I probably have spoiled the eggs, I do want to say one thing about the bacon, mention a single practice (by no means the worst) in modern hog production that points to the compound madness of an impeccable industrial logic.

Piglets in confinement operations are weaned from their mothers 10 days after birth (compared with 13 weeks in nature) because they gain weight faster on their hormone- and antibiotic-fortified feed. This premature weaning leaves the pigs with a lifelong craving to suck and chew, a desire they gratify in confinement by biting the tail of the animal in front of them. A normal pig would fight off his molester, but a demoralized pig has stopped caring. “Learned helplessness” is the psychological term, and it’s not uncommon in confinement operations, where tens of thousands of hogs spend their entire lives ignorant of sunshine or earth or straw, crowded together beneath a metal roof upon metal slats suspended over a manure pit. So it’s not surprising that an animal as sensitive and intelligent as a pig would get depressed, and a depressed pig will allow his tail to be chewed on to the point of infection. Sick pigs, being underperforming “production units,” are clubbed to death on the spot. The U.S.D.A.’s recommended solution to the problem is called “tail docking.” Using a pair of pliers (and no anesthetic), most but not all of the tail is snipped off. Why the little stump? Because the whole point of the exercise is not to remove the object of tail-biting so much as to render it more sensitive. Now, a bite on the tail is so painful that even the most demoralized pig will mount a struggle to avoid it.

Much of this description is drawn from “Dominion,” Matthew Scully’s recent book in which he offers a harrowing description of a North Carolina hog operation. Scully, a Christian conservative, has no patience for lefty rights talk, arguing instead that while God did give man “dominion” over animals (“Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you”), he also admonished us to show them mercy. “We are called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or some claim to equality but . . . because they stand unequal and powerless before us.”

Scully calls the contemporary factory farm “our own worst nightmare” and, to his credit, doesn’t shrink from naming the root cause of this evil: unfettered capitalism. (Perhaps this explains why he resigned from the Bush administration just before his book’s publication.) A tension has always existed between the capitalist imperative to maximize efficiency and the moral imperatives of religion or community, which have historically served as a counterweight to the moral blindness of the market. This is one of “the cultural contradictions of capitalism”–the tendency of the economic impulse to erode the moral underpinnings of society. Mercy toward animals is one such casualty.

More than any other institution, the American industrial animal farm offers a nightmarish glimpse of what capitalism can look like in the absence of moral or regulatory constraint. Here in these places life itself is redefined–as protein production–and with it suffering. That venerable word becomes “stress,” an economic problem in search of a cost-effective solution, like tail-docking or beak-clipping or, in the industry’s latest plan, by simply engineering the “stress gene” out of pigs and chickens. “Our own worst nightmare” such a place may well be; it is also real life for the billions of animals unlucky enough to have been born beneath these grim steel roofs, into the brief, pitiless life of a “production unit” in the days before the suffering gene was found.

Vegetarianism doesn’t seem an unreasonable response to such an evil. Who would want to be made complicit in the agony of these animals by eating them? You want to throw something against the walls of those infernal sheds, whether it’s the Bible, a new constitutional right or a whole platoon of animal rightists bent on breaking in and liberating the inmates. In the shadow of these factory farms, Coetzee’s notion of a “stupefying crime” doesn’t seem far-fetched at all.

But before you swear off meat entirely, let me describe a very different sort of animal farm...

(in reply to Tantriqu)

Post #: 95

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/28/2011 11:29:14 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Vegetarianism doesn’t seem an unreasonable response to such an evil. Who would want to be made complicit in the agony of these animals by eating them? You want to throw something against the walls of those infernal sheds, whether it’s the Bible, a new constitutional right or a whole platoon of animal rightists bent on breaking in and liberating the inmates. In the shadow of these factory farms, Coetzee’s notion of a “stupefying crime” doesn’t seem far-fetched at all.

But before you swear off meat entirely, let me describe a very different sort of animal farm...

Apart form everything else you said, YES. I don't digest meat very well but even here where I do know the cattle roams around on nice fields, I won't have lamb in the house, I have bought one ewe and her offspring from the farmer and they are allowed to live their life out in peace and quiet, I pay room and board for them, I couldn't - even if I would like the taste of it and would not feel horrible eating it - I can't eat an animal that is a pet, just like I could not eat my dogs, cats or the pet rat.

What gets me are people who baby their pets, but they don't give a shit how other animals are treated that are not labeled pets, I don't think those animals feel pain less. And don't get me started on the cosmetic industry, I'm not (not so happily) ginger, but I simply refuse to buy hair dyes that are tested on animals, sod it, I would like to have dark brown hair, but not at price of having chemicals sprayed into bunny or beagle eyes, because some idiots don't get it that it goes on to the hair and not in the eyes...

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Post #: 96

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/28/2011 5:32:53 PM

LadyNTrainer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama
How much do you know about factory farming? After reading about how the animals are tortured, I can't in good conscience buy conventionally raised meat.

http://michaelpollan.com/articles-archive/an-animals-place/

Seconded. It's pretty bad, and even if you don't care about animal suffering, the meat is just plain yucky compared to good small farm raised healthy animals. The taste difference is really astonishing. I am a die-hard carnivore, but conventional meat tastes awful to me because I'm spoiled for the good stuff. I think that anyone who regularly eats meat from really healthy normal animals that have had grass and sunshine and open pasture is likely to feel the same way.

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Post #: 97

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/29/2011 12:24:10 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
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"Vegetarianism doesn’t seem an unreasonable response to such an evil."

I disagree, Your SELF is worth more than any being you can eat. Welcome to the jungle. But really you have been here all your life, you just might not have noticed.

T^T

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Post #: 98

RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/29/2011 8:45:27 AM

LadyNTrainer

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Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Vegetarianism doesn’t seem an unreasonable response to such an evil."

I disagree, Your SELF is worth more than any being you can eat. Welcome to the jungle. But really you have been here all your life, you just might not have noticed.

I personally kill animals and eat them. I do consider that morally acceptable. I do not torture animals with inhumane and unclean conditions, nor pay other people to torture animals. I don't consider that morally acceptable, particularly when the reason to torture instead of to kill humanely is profit or luxury rather than survival.

It is a very narrow and selfish view to state that because we are worth more than the animals we eat, it doesn't matter if we cause them incalculable pain and suffering just to make an extra few cents on the dollar or save ourselves the effort of raising and slaughtering normal, healthy animals. I don't think that is okay. Ultimately, the results of factory farming are not healthy for people either, not to mention the environment.

What you're also saying with this short sighted view is that your convenience now is worth more than the health and safety of your children and their children. Welcome to the jungle.

< Message edited by LadyNTrainer -- 6/29/2011 9:12:01 AM >

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RE: milk w hormones in it - 6/29/2011 7:44:16 PM

Termyn8or

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Joined: 11/12/2005
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I didn't say to torture them. But really, in the wild some animals get eaten alive. Bet that smarts.

The problem is that it's almost impossible to get all the nutrients we need. The lengths to which one would have to go is staggering. Twenty four minerals are essential to human life according to the FDA or whoever. They fertilize with three. Livestock must be given supplements just to make it to slaughter time. Thus meat supplies some of them. Growing organically can help, but even that is not a complete soluttion.

I have no love for the food industry. They are however, in business to make money. If they don't they go out of business, where would that leave us ?

I have actually considered buying and using the supplements used for livestock. I never persued it really but I might someday. The problem with that is that a human digestive system is not the same as that of a cow, pig or chicken so I really can't say if it would do the trick. Hunting would probably do it if what you kill and eat has been foraging for food all over the place instead of being in a barn somewhere.

I tried for years to find an effective solution for the piss poor nutrition in today's foods. I found that colloidal mineral supplements, unrefined salt, spices and nuts are a pretty good way to go, along with eating meat. However I can't say that it's a complete solution.

I found it interesting that when I seemed to not like or be able to handle milk years ago happened to coincide with changes they made to increase shelf life. There used to be articles all over the place about it, even though I didn't find out until aftwerward. The fact that I didn't know at the time is rock bottom line proof that it was not psychosomatic. It was something about the flavor, but I had already drank milk that tasted slightly different than other milk. Sometimes that's just how it is. Maybe my taste buds are more sensitive than some, but I notice quite a difference in the taste of things like cheese and meat as well. I can say that no two apples have ever tasted exactly the same. I found the same true of other fruits and vegetables but not to the same degree. Some meat tastes great, some tastes like sawdust. Not that I have eaten sawdust but the term seems to fit descriptively.

Many years ago I read "Don't eat veal". Why ? Because of how the calves are treated, what they described was even worse than beef that was intended to go full term before slaughter. So what, I never really cared for veal anyway. It also makes sense to let the livestock grow up all the way, you get more. But at whatever age, slaughter is still slaughter.

We kill to live. Maybe we have others do it for us and pay them but it adds up to the same thing.

In studying all this I found some things that were not general knowledge, like how land is really fertilized naturally. It usually involves flooding or runoff from a mountain or hill that has valuable mineral compounds disolved in it. This happens X amount on this planet, which means there is only so much mineral content available. When you have more people, each gets a smaller share. With the fact that many degenerative diseases are caused by mineral deficiencies, I come to believe that the world is overpopulated, no matter what anyone says. We make land arable artificially to feed the masses. there is therefore no real solution for all.

If I was rolling in money, I could do something. The cost of making land fertile, rather than just barely arable is not cheap. Nobody is really doing any research in that area because quite frankly, it would be a waste of time. Even if I find real solutions for myself and a few others, there is no way in hell to feed 300 million people that way.

So we're all gonna die. My personal way of dealing with has had some success though, from what I've seen. I see people my age with gray hair, no hair, no teeth, on walkers in in those scooter chairs. It's been known for decades that overweight people are usually actually malnourished, but they don't mention that much these days. The animal husbandy profession has been on this for a long time as well, and they know what happens when livestock does not get the proper nutrients. They solved that problem for money. However when the health of people is involved, the payment process is inverted. Doctors make nothing off of people in good health. Try that system with livestock and you'll have deadstock, and starving people.

So the doc says I could live another fifty years. been there done that, I'd prefer twenty. There is no way in hell my health could stay good for much longer than that in this environment.

One newer dicovery of mine which supports my disbelief that human life has really been extended has shown. I am rereading an old encyclopedia, just for the hell of it. When I was a kid I did, but I had no interest in people. Well now I am and I am finding that these noted scientists etc. did not die off at thirty five. I mean in the 1600s and shit. If life ws so short, why did they generally live into their 60s and 70s ? Probably because nobody killed them. I've long thought that disease and violence slewed the average lifespan figures of the past, this is not contradicted to say the least.

So meat it is, for now. Another solution would be fine but I don't see it. It's not even being at the top of the food chain becasue we are not. But we still have to look out for number one.

T^T

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Post #: 100

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