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I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 5:52:03 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

I am against the death penalty, I have always believed that no human being have the right to murder another, that to kill a crimenal strapped to a chair or a pole or placed against a wall, captured and helpless makes a nation no better than that criminal, and in addition in most cases one can not be 100 percent sure one have the right guy. I have argued this point, quite vocally many times, but today I feel my faith on this matter have been shaken.

A man in Norway have set a bomb that first killed seven people and seriously hut at least 14, then he want to a summer camp for teenagers and people in their early 20's. Kids, just innocent kids and killed 84 of them in cold blood and who know how many are hurt. The bastard had even remembered to bring protection for his ears so his hearing would not be harmed by the sound from the weapons as he walked around executing children! This monster did all this, well none are completely sure why yet, but the current theory is that it is because he is a right wing extremist and he hated the fact that our government accept as many refugees and immigrants as we can support. His motivation might be something else, that part is not clear yet, but what is clear is that he executed dozens and dozens of defenseless children and youngsters.

Now in Norway this monster risks 21 years in prison, 21 years!!! Now he might get sentenced to be secured for a longer time, but in theory the longest time he will be spending in prison is 21 years and he will be out after half of that with good behavior. I am enraged, why should a pig that have taken so many innocent lives be free after two decades, it is against any feeling of justice I have. Now this man can never pay for what he have done, but at least he should be locked away forever, and the priviliges that prisoners have in Norwegian prisons like TV in the room, access to internet, library, a relatively comfy room and so on, all that should be taken away, they should drop this man in a dark hole and never let him out again.

I am still against the death penalty, however some thing in me says that this monster deserves to die, he should pay with his life for his crimes against the Norwegian people, against humanity, my head says capital punishment is not the way to go, but my heart cry out for blood.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 6:24:13 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Wow,just after you berate others for exploiting the tragedy......this.

Why don`t you wait to see what happens before getting your panties in a bunch?



_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 6:40:19 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

How exactly do I exploit the tragedy by writing that such evil give me doubts about my views on the right way to handle a justice system. Nor have I berated anyone, I have said that discussions on a recent tragedy is not a place to throw shit at one another, that one should try to have a reasonably respectful tone in what one write.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 6:41:50 AM   
ArizonaBossMan


Posts: 380
Joined: 2/9/2011
Status: offline 		In the purest sense, I'd hate to have a death penalty. However, it does work. The perp will never kill again.

(in reply to nephandi)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 6:48:35 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi


I am still against the death penalty, however some thing in me says that this monster deserves to die, he should pay with his life for his crimes against the Norwegian people, against humanity, my head says capital punishment is not the way to go, but my heart cry out for blood.



I think your feelings are a normal reaction, I don't think none of us would cry for the guy if he had the most horrific accident and death, anger at such a horrible crime is a normal reaction, and yes he would deserve to die, however by killing him, you let a criminal turn you into a killer, or somebody who supports taking lives - and that would make him and the likes of him win.


_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 6:55:38 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		Nephandi,

The problem I have with your position is that it is similar to the moral equivalency that plagues US foreign policy discourse. You equate the state putting to death a heinous criminal with "murder" and with his crimes. Once you have done that then there is obviously no option but to oppose the death penalty. The fact is that there is not even close to an equivalency between convicting and punishing someone who has (in this instance) murdered nearly 100 people and his execution. There are sick people in this world who simply deserve to die, and accomplishing that is not murder, it is justice and improves society.

I hope this tragedy hasn't touched too close to home for you.

Edit: And you can see the fallacy of this equivalency in the post above mine, posted while I was writing this one.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 7/23/2011 6:56:35 AM >

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Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:00:14 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Wow,just after you berate others for exploiting the tragedy......this.

Why don`t you wait to see what happens before getting your panties in a bunch?





There is a big difference in exploring the repercussions of the justice system that has jurisdiction over the Norway attack, and using it as a club against posters on this board....



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:00:15 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

In the purest sense, I'd hate to have a death penalty. However, it does work. The perp will never kill again.

And when we kill someone innocent of the crime?

How do you make that right?

Care to stake your own life against this happening,brave guy......?

I mean you have nothing but good things to say about government so you must believe they always have the right perpetrators and don`t make mistakes like that.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 7/23/2011 7:01:02 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to ArizonaBossMan)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:01:06 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Isn't it strange how the people who are in favour of capital punishment find it offensive that women should be allowed to terminate an unwanted pregnancy?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:04:55 AM   
FirstQuaker


Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
Status: offline 		Well you are hurting now, and so is Norway.

Better to think of  this later, when things have calmed down..

(in reply to nephandi)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:10:00 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

I think your feelings are a normal reaction, I don't think none of us would cry for the guy if he had the most horrific accident and death, anger at such a horrible crime is a normal reaction, and yes he would deserve to die, however by killing him, you let a criminal turn you into a killer, or somebody who supports taking lives - and that would make him and the likes of him win.


I agree with this completely. I am trying to think about something to add, but you said all I wanted to.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to LadyConstanze)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:13:59 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Isn't it strange how the people who are in favour of capital punishment find it offensive that women should be allowed to terminate an unwanted pregnancy?



Here is how it works in their world...

Poor woman who cannot afford a baby and has no husband is forced to stay pregnant, poor ill prepared woman raises child by herself, single mom does a crappy job and drinks too much to relieve the stress, child grows up with multiple "daddies" and ends up in juvenile hall by the time he is 12. By the time he is 18 he is ready for the Big House, and then we spend the rest of our lives being victimized by this criminal, or we end up paying for his three hots and his cot...

Back in the late 80s there was a predicted crime wave of "super criminals" predicted because of the crack cocaine epidemic, and crime, especially violent crime, was swiftly rising. Harvard performed a study that linked Roe V Wade with a sharp drop in crime in the 1990s, I read about it in the Fresno Bee, and later looked it up... it was BLASTED by pro lifers, as you can imagine, because it was hinting that abortion was helpful in more ways than for the individual
http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~hceronline/?q=node/57


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 7/23/2011 7:14:56 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:14:41 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		There's also (though it's no consolation at all to the parents of those poor kids) the risk of martyring the stupid tit. That's surely the last thing anybody in Norway wants if the lunatic right are starting to take lessons in terrorism from their koran-toting mortal enemies?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:18:46 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

The problem I have with your position is that it is similar to the moral equivalency that plagues US foreign policy discourse. You equate the state putting to death a heinous criminal with "murder" and with his crimes. Once you have done that then there is obviously no option but to oppose the death penalty. The fact is that there is not even close to an equivalency between convicting and punishing someone who has (in this instance) murdered nearly 100 people and his execution. There are sick people in this world who simply deserve to die, and accomplishing that is not murder, it is justice and improves society.


This is an extreme case, and yes I agree, some people deserve to die, they deserve worse, they deserve to be slowly boiled in oil their toes first, however my problem is, who is getting to decide, is it really for human beings to sit in judgment over one another and decide who live and who dies.

However if you look past this one, horrible case, then most people who kill will not call it murder, they will have some reason why it is justified, why should it be better when a state decides that a killing is justified than when a single individual do?

I am also very concerned with the fact that not everyone sentenced for a crime have actually done it, and death is rather finite. In this case the guy was caught red handed, but if we had death penalty, what about next time, can we really trust a court to be good enough to separate out the truth to be allowed to decide if a man or a woman lives or dies. At times like this my heart cries for blood, I hope this man dies, I hope he have horrible, painful death. I am outraged that he faces 21 years in jail, and in a Norwegian jail at that which have a rather good standard, yes he deserves to die, but no matter how much I want for his death I still do not think it is right for a nation to be able to decide to kill someone.

I understand your point, but I can not agree with it, even if my opinion on that weavers today when faced with just such massive evil.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:21:45 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:


Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.


_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:22:07 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Well you are hurting now, and so is Norway.

Better to think of  this later, when things have calmed down..


I agree with this. All of Norway is in shock, we are all angry, and quite frankly terrified that something could happen here. I think none of us Norwegians think completely clearly about this matter today.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to FirstQuaker)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:27:25 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings

quote:

The problem I have with your position is that it is similar to the moral equivalency that plagues US foreign policy discourse. You equate the state putting to death a heinous criminal with "murder" and with his crimes. Once you have done that then there is obviously no option but to oppose the death penalty. The fact is that there is not even close to an equivalency between convicting and punishing someone who has (in this instance) murdered nearly 100 people and his execution. There are sick people in this world who simply deserve to die, and accomplishing that is not murder, it is justice and improves society.


This is an extreme case, and yes I agree, some people deserve to die, they deserve worse, they deserve to be slowly boiled in oil their toes first, however my problem is, who is getting to decide, is it really for human beings to sit in judgment over one another and decide who live and who dies.

However if you look past this one, horrible case, then most people who kill will not call it murder, they will have some reason why it is justified, why should it be better when a state decides that a killing is justified than when a single individual do?

I am also very concerned with the fact that not everyone sentenced for a crime have actually done it, and death is rather finite. In this case the guy was caught red handed, but if we had death penalty, what about next time, can we really trust a court to be good enough to separate out the truth to be allowed to decide if a man or a woman lives or dies. At times like this my heart cries for blood, I hope this man dies, I hope he have horrible, painful death. I am outraged that he faces 21 years in jail, and in a Norwegian jail at that which have a rather good standard, yes he deserves to die, but no matter how much I want for his death I still do not think it is right for a nation to be able to decide to kill someone.

I understand your point, but I can not agree with it, even if my opinion on that weavers today when faced with just such massive evil.

I wish you well



To your first rhetorical, yes, it IS for other human beings to decide...there is no "higher authority" to make that judgement. Civilization has been built on crime and punishment and ensuring that "evil" is not allowed to flourish. It IS better when the state decides because the state is representing the people it is charged with protecting. Again, capital punishment is not morally equivalent to mass murder.

As far as innocents being executed, yes, it is possible but becoming more and more unlikely. Even before DNA evidence cases of actual misidentfication of who committed a murder was extremely rare (as opposed to willful punishment of an innocent as a scapegoat or racial target). Is it still possible to convict an innocent? Yes, but I don't think that miniscule chance justifies tipping the balance of justice entirely the other way.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:39:31 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

To your first rhetorical, yes, it IS for other human beings to decide...there is no "higher authority" to make that judgement. Civilization has been built on crime and punishment and ensuring that "evil" is not allowed to flourish.


I do not agree that anyone have the right to decide to kill another. I do agree that civilization have to stop crime, I however think imprisonment is a good punishment. I do however not agree with Norway that imprisonment should be limited to 21 years, some should never be allowed to walk free again.

quote:

It IS better when the state decides because the state is representing the people it is charged with protecting. Again, capital punishment is not morally equivalent to mass murder.


Capital punishment is not the moral equivalent of mass murder, but to me it is the moral equivalent of one murder. The problem with the state deciding is that it is a little like saying it is okey to decide someone have to die if many enough people want it. Also we know from history that governments quite often can become corrupt.

quote:

As far as innocents being executed, yes, it is possible but becoming more and more unlikely. Even before DNA evidence cases of actual misidentfication of who committed a murder was extremely rare (as opposed to willful punishment of an innocent as a scapegoat or racial target).


Actually, when you look at many people in for example American prisons allot of them have rather doubtful convictions. However if only 1 in 1000 is innocent, are you willing to let 1 innocent be killed to be able to execute criminals as opposed to just putting them in jail?

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:43:34 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Well, I do support the death penalty, Nephandi.  I believe that some crimes demand the ultimate price, and that anything less, can not be called justice. 

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: I am against the death penalty but... - 7/23/2011 7:45:12 AM   
LadyConstanze


Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		nephandi,

I think you would find this article really interesting

http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/better-10-guilty-men-go-free-than-to-convict-a-single-innocent-man-104187.php

There's a lot more to it, but this bit made me think the most:

quote:

The Innocence Project has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence. According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed:

• Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct.
• Over 30 of them involved police misconduct which led to wrongful convictions.
• Approximately 15 of them involved false witness testimony.
• 34% of the police misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatory evidence.
• 11% involved outright evidence fabrication.
• 37% of the prosecutorial misconduct cases involved concealing exculpatory evidence.
• 25% involved knowing use of false testimony.

Keep in mind; these statistics involve Death Penalty cases wherein the State sought to literally kill the innocent person who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

How many of those 100 innocent, wrongly accused citizens were convicted in the media before jury selection ever began in their trial? How many were wholly deprived of their Constitutional Presumption of Innocence? If we allow ourselves to make watershed decisions far "upstream" about whom is and is not deserving of the protections afforded by our Constitution, our entire system of justice becomes a hollow shell with a predetermined outcome.


_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 20
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