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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 11:49:52 AM   
LaMalinche


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Status: offline 		Anthropormorphic personification. . . once again.

Best,

LaMalinche


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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 11:52:51 AM   
LaMalinche


Posts: 2077
Joined: 10/20/2005
Status: offline 		There are hidden contradictions in the minds of people who "love Nature" while deploring the "artificialities" with which "Man has spoiled 'Nature.'" The obvious contradiction lies in their choice of words, which imply that Man and his artifacts are not part of "Nature"—but beavers and their dams are. But the contradictions go deeper than this prima-face absurdity. In declaring his love for a beaver dam (erected by beavers for beavers' purposes) and his hatred for dams erected by men (for the purposes of men) the Naturist reveals his hatred for his own race—i.e., his own self-hatred.
In the case of "Naturists" such self-hatred is understandable; they are such a sorry lot. But hatred is too strong an emotion to feel toward them; pity and contempt are the most they rate.
As for me, willy-nilly I am a man, not a beaver, and H. sapiens is the only race I have or can have. Fortunately for me, I like being part of a race made up of men and women—it strikes me as a fine arrangement -and perfectly "natural" Believe it or not, there were "Naturists" who opposed the first flight to old Earth's Moon as being "unnaturaI" and a "despoiling of Nature."


Best,

LaMalinche


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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 12:02:55 PM   
Dustyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaMalinche

Anthropormorphic personification. . . once again.

Best,

LaMalinche




I didn't assign any purely human traits to 'gators in what I posted.  They ARE killing machines, pure and simple.  Within a week of hatching, even the young are considered prey.  They eat their own kind.  Dogs, cats, deer.  If it's made of meat, it's literally fair game to a 'gator.

As to man's creations not being part of nature, I don't grasp that arguement anytime it's ever brought up.  Sometimes they aren't constructed of naturally occuring materials, but hey, the beaver would prolly use concrete for it's dams if it could.  Well, if I was a beaver, I would.  Beat chewing on sticks all the time, but they do get a lot fo fiber in their diet. LOL

I just have no sympathy for people that try to move into the territory of a creature known to eat other people.  I don't feel sorry for surfers that become a tasty snack for sharks, people that get bit by snakes, or anything else along those lines.

As the scorpion said to the frog.

"What did you expect?  I'm a scorpion."

- Dustyn


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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 12:12:55 PM   
MistressSassy66


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[/quote]

I just have no sympathy for people that try to move into the territory of a creature known to eat other people.  I don't feel sorry for surfers that become a tasty snack for sharks, people that get bit by snakes, or anything else along those lines.

As the scorpion said to the frog.

"What did you expect?  I'm a scorpion."

- Dustyn

[/quote]


Exactly.
If you choose to live with the animals dont get pissed when they eat your cat.

_____________________________

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In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 1:12:12 PM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

If someone in Africa is killed by a lion they don't go around killing lions, but that rarely happens because natives of  Africa have respect for their animal relatives, whether that be lions, cheetas, hyennas, whatever they know the habits of their wildlife and respect their territory and honor how dangerous they can be if intruded upon. *Brightspot




Apparently you have missed the shows about the killing of elephants for their ivory tusks. Native Africans kill these animals en mass, not caring one iota about respecting there territory or how dangerous they may become.

quote:

Native American and indiginous cultures have much more knowledge, respect and tolerance when it comes to sharing their space with the wild animals of the world.


Perhaps, but many also use or used animal sacrifice in their religious ceremonies.

                 mbmbn

.

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 1:49:22 PM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

 
If someone in Africa is killed by a lion they don't go around killing lions, but that rarely happens because natives of  Africa have respect for their animal relatives, whether that be lions, cheetas, hyennas, whatever they know the habits of their wildlife and respect their territory and honor how dangerous they can be if intruded upon.


You are kidding, right?  Have you ever been to Africa?

The mass extinctions of animals aren't because of "great white hunters"; it's the local guys with AK47 and RPGs (yup, they are perfect for bringing down an elephant for its ivory.

Of course, if you think I'm wrong you can always consult with Diane Fosse.

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 6:01:38 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne
Oh Please,  that would be a neat trick if you could duct tape  an alligators "arms and legs" behind their back.  They don't streatch that way. 


You'd be surprised, actually.  Crocodilian limbs can do a bit of a rotation trick in order to propel them in the "galloping" gait, which is quite different from their usual mode of locomotion.  Aussie freshies seem to be the most frequent "gallopers" from what I've seen, followed by Cuban crocs, but even the species that rarely use the elevated gait have the physical range of motion in their limbs.  It's more flexible there than you might imagine just from looking at them.

For immobilization, the hind legs are usually "splinted" all the way around the tail.  That is well within their range of motion.  If the forelimbs need additional restraint, one technique I've seen used is "shackles" where the tape is put around the "wrists", and a length is doubled and passed over the body.  The forelimbs are not always restrained; it depends on the method of transport and the length of time of transport.  For that matter the hind limbs don't always need to be restrained for transport either.  Head bagging, jaw taping and eye taping is usually quite sufficient.  Some pressure on the animal's back seems to help too; it appears to be a behavioral trigger for them since dominant animals will use their weight in this manner to make another croc submit.


quote:

Now do you actually believe for a moment the duct tape is harming an alligators skin?  They hold their mouths shut because their power is in the closing not the opening, whether they do it with rope, those big rubber bands they use, or duct tape  doesn't matter.


Duct tape can and does cause abrasions on crocodilian skin, which is why black electrical tape is more common for repeated use, especially on smaller (under 8') captive animals.  If you leave any tape or band on for more than a few hours, you will cause pressure necrosis and skin sloughing.  This effect tends to be more pronounced with duct tape than electrical tape.  The duration can be extended somewhat by using other materials as padding in addition to the tape, but if you attempt to ship a crocodilian overnight with tape on, the vet is pretty much guaranteed to have a job at the other end.  Bad idea.  So yes, duct tape can certainly harm an alligator's skin if improperly applied or if left on for more than a few hours. 

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 6:29:14 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dustyn
I didn't assign any purely human traits to 'gators in what I posted.  They ARE killing machines, pure and simple.  Within a week of hatching, even the young are considered prey.  They eat their own kind.  Dogs, cats, deer.  If it's made of meat, it's literally fair game to a 'gator.


Crocodilians aren't human, but they do have a highly complex social structure with amazingly fine degrees of communication and social interaction.  Cannibalistic behavior does occur in males, but adult females (including genetically unrelated animals) will actively protect the young in response to specific juvenile vocalizations, and maternal care behaviors are well documented.  In some cases (recently documented, still somewhat controversial) mothers will actually bring food to their young while denying adult males access.  A "pod" of young alligators is a social association involving one or more adult females who may or may not be genetically related to any of the juveniles, and neonates and juveniles from different clutches over an age range of about three years.  Crocodilians are a lot more complex than they may seem, more closely kin to birds and dinosaurs perhaps than to reptiles, certainly in a behavioral sense.

Some crocodilians are pack hunters, showing a fantastic degree of cooperation and coordination that suggests even more complex communication strategies than have already been documented.  Crocodilians can voluntarily slow or speed their hearts, change their hearts from four chambered to three chambered at will and constrict blood vessels in a specific area to stop flow to an extremity (or to annoy researchers who want a sample).  Some may be capable of generating true endothermic heat in a way that is still poorly understood, though this is another controversial piece of documentation.  Could this capability be one of the keys to solving the long running scientific debate about warm blooded dinosaurs and the four chambered, mammal-like dinosaur heart?  Some scientists think so.

Almost all crocodilians show what can only be described as a mammal-like response to behavioral conditioning.  It takes some species only a few months of regular training to respond reliably with some amazingly complex sets of learned behaviors.  Their response to behavioral shaping and clicker or "bridge" training is comparable to that of hooved animals.  That's pretty damn impressive from an animal behavior standpoint.  Somebody really needs to print a bumper sticker saying, "My croc may be smarter than your horse." 

Killing machines?  Perhaps.  Nature designed them to be frighteningly efficient at what they do.  JUST killing machines?  Absolutely not.  No one who actually knows these animals could agree.

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 6:56:12 PM   
Clothespingirl


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Status: offline 		Najakcharmer,

It's a pleasure to be educated by someone with so much knowledge and enthusiasm.  The facts are much more interesting than all the various oversimplifications!



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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 7:15:28 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Clothespingirl
It's a pleasure to be educated by someone with so much knowledge and enthusiasm.  The facts are much more interesting than all the various oversimplifications!


Thanks.  I'd wondered if anyone actually noticed or cared what the actual facts were about these critters.  The real picture is a hell of a lot more complex than anything you could possibly find in the popular media, or in what most people think they know because they saw it on one of those so-called "scientific" television shows.  The inaccuracies, misquotes, misstatements, exaggerations and outright bullshit on the majority of those shows is to choke over.  Unfortunately they're all the general public has to mistakenly put their trust in. 

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 8:47:18 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		"Wow....take a minute to breathe!

I am not exactly sure how we went from alligator attacks in Florida to polygamy, space travel, slavery, global warming and nuclear power." > mistoferin


mistoferin,
 
I was breathing just fine as I writing that reponse.
I ran around to include other things that make the hairs rise on the back of my neck because someone asked why I don't focus my energy in other area's. So I mentioned some.
 
In answer to your "Do you think they should start killing the stupid human?" No I don't, I am strongly opposed to the death penalty for human too.
 
I have gotten most of my info from the local news and when a person is attack by a bear ( I believe in Minneasota we have both the Black Bear, Brown Bear and up north also Moose and Elk) the vincinity is mapped out of where the attack accured a radius is marked of as to the probably vincinity the bear of the attack is located and any bear fitting any connection, such as size described and based on claw marks depth of bites, etc. is Shot! It is not tranquilized and checked out for proof until it is down.
 
They are improvening tactic's somewhat when a wild animal comes into a town but is not threatening anyone, they will try to tranquilize those animals and relocate them farther out. (Which I will just stick in here that that often can separate mother and cubs.) But that isn't always how it works out. A few years back here some cow's broke out of their enclosure and somehow made it to the highway where they were all shot and killed for fear of people getting into an accident, yet they could have blocked traffic just as easy as they do all the time for vehical accidents, corraled the cows and got them back where they belonged. But people freaked and didn't think logically.
 
Unfortunately, I don't have the time, as you seem to to be running around the net gathering data, but I will tel you my brain has great memory skills and those kind of things I don't forget.
 
*Brightspot

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 8:48:16 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressSassy66
As far as being invaders...humans are invaders on the animals territories.
Have you not seen pics of the rain forest?I dont think the elephants were driving the bulldozers.


Does this territory really belong to animals? What would their claim be to the territory?
 
You could say that the territory is their home, but of course once humans settle there, it becomes their home too.
 
You could say that the territory is the animal's natural habitat, but of course a house is the natural habitat of humans.
 
You could claim they had the land first ... but sadly, that claim hasn't proved to mean much for the last five thousand years or so, no matter if you are human or animal.
 
The world is so evil, so wicked. When you read history very closely, you quickly come to the conclusion that as bad as current events might look on the surface ... they are actually probably ten times worse. We can only wish the poor gators luck ... they will probably need it.

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 8:52:18 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Humans have the right to live here also. It's not like we are invaders from Mars, encroaching upon the Earth.


Human's are the ONLY creature that encroches and evades the Earth, maybe you are from another planet?
 
*Brightspot

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 8:58:53 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne

Oh Please,  that would be a neat trick if you could duct tape  an alligators "arms and legs" behind their back.  They don't streatch that way.  Now do you actually believe for a moment the duct tape is harming an alligators skin?  They hold their mouths shut because their power is in the closing not the opening, whether they do it with rope, those big rubber bands they use, or duct tape  doesn't matter.

Next your going to tell us we should not be binding and transporting submissives and slaves..

You have made some silly post in the past but I think this one takes the cake.

K


They had ducktape on their legs and used rope to reach accross their back to tie them together. I never said anything about the duck tape harming their skin.
Duh, I know exactly why they use duck tape on their snout.
 
As for the rest of your reply... er....wise crack, I will pass on a response.
 
*Brightspot

_____________________________

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 9:11:06 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

 
If someone in Africa is killed by a lion they don't go around killing lions, but that rarely happens because natives of  Africa have respect for their animal relatives, whether that be lions, cheetas, hyennas, whatever they know the habits of their wildlife and respect their territory and honor how dangerous they can be if intruded upon.


You are kidding, right?  Have you ever been to Africa?

The mass extinctions of animals aren't because of "great white hunters"; it's the local guys with AK47 and RPGs (yup, they are perfect for bringing down an elephant for its ivory.

Of course, if you think I'm wrong you can always consult with Diane Fosse.


Nope never been to Africa. But I will say because of Diane Fosse fight and her death, plus the overwheming refusal of people to buy ivory these practices have been made illegal. I would place all my money, that at the tip of it all IS a rich White man.
 
*Brightspot

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 9:15:05 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Clothespingirl

Najakcharmer,

It's a pleasure to be educated by someone with so much knowledge and enthusiasm.  The facts are much more interesting than all the various oversimplifications!




I agree Najakcharmer. That was a breath of fresh air. Thank You!
 
*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 9:22:57 PM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
Human's are the ONLY creature that encroches and evades the Earth, maybe you are from another planet?


Africanizes bees are invading North America, killing off other bee populations. Insects destroy whole crops all over the world, crops grown to help people survive. During the Middle Ages, parts of Europe had such a problem with roaming bands of wolves, that in times of famine, wolves would come into villages in the dark of night, and carry off people to eat. The list could be quie extensive.
 
No offense intended, but your prejudice and admirable passion for the topic at hand, seem to be compelling you to make wild claims that do more to exacerbate, than ameliorate.

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 9:27:09 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Humans have the right to live here also. It's not like we are invaders from Mars, encroaching upon the Earth.


Human's are the ONLY creature that encroches and evades the Earth, maybe you are from another planet?


Technically Homo sapiens could be considered a non native, invasive species by the criteria used by wildlife biologists in pretty much all of the regions in which we now live.  Certainly in terms of biological impact on ecosystems, we're right up there on the global catastrophe scale.  But we are very far from being the only non native, invasive species causing damage to local ecosystems.  The worst, arguably.  The only, no.

But let's get real here - we're all Homo sapiens, sitting here typing at our plastic keyboards, exchanging electrons across a sophisticated information network that spans the globe, courtesy of modern technology.  Any realistic solutions we propose for preserving ecological diversity is going to have to take this into consideration, or they simply won't work.  As amusing as I would personally find it to make human-skin boots, nice useful fertilizer and crocodile food out of people who do not play nicely with Mother Nature, the reality is that ecosystems are preserved through economics, and conservation achieved through commercialization.  Those are the solutions that actually work in the real world, as offensive as some of them may seem to activists who would prefer to protect the ideals rather than the reality of species survival. 



< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 5/20/2006 9:30:02 PM >

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 9:35:41 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 5/20/2006 9:37:37 PM >

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RE: I am Soooooooo Pissed.... - 5/20/2006 9:38:48 PM   
Najakcharmer


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Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Africanizes bees are invading North America, killing off other bee populations.


Perfect example of an invasive, non native species impacting a local ecosystem.


quote:

Insects destroy whole crops all over the world, crops grown to help people survive.


This is actually an example in reverse.  The crops in question are either invasive human-introduced species, or native species being force-grown in non-natural proximity, causing serious changes in the available local microhabitats.  The native insects attacking the non native crops are a part of the natural ecosystem that has been invaded and is reacting predictably.


quote:

During the Middle Ages, parts of Europe had such a problem with roaming bands of wolves, that in times of famine, wolves would come into villages in the dark of night, and carry off people to eat. The list could be quie extensive.


Another example in reverse.  Wolves were native to the region, humans the invasive settlers.  When you move into a region that has large mammalian predators, you tend to get predated upon.

This is not a judgement of good or bad, right vs wrong.  This is simply an observation on how native ecosystems may respond to non native invasive species. 

< Message edited by Najakcharmer -- 5/20/2006 9:39:25 PM >

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