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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 11:52:46 AM   
StrangerThan


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As far as Obama the man goes, I think he's a decent guy. I think I wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor, as a friend, and honestly don't mind him that much as a president. He does however, come across as ineffective and weak. You point to the right of the aisle to highlight that and I'll grant you, if he has demonstrated anything, it is that he has three distinct ogres sitting on his back.

He can be pushed and he will eventually give in. To me that comes across as a man who is driven by those around him more so than one who believes in what he's doing. It makes listening to him an exercise in knowing what those around him really want.

The second is that he comes across as weak tactically, to put it in military terms, and it's not just dealing with the right that underscores it. Strategically, he's good. Tactically he's not. What I mean by that is if a decision has been vetted through enough circles,and enough focus groups, he's willing to make it his decision. The times he needs to make one quickly however, he comes across as anything but decisive. Maybe that's the great appeaser at work. Maybe it's just true that he has a hard time making decisions without shopping the idea around enough to know whether it's good or not. I don't know.

A lot of people hated Bush for making snap decisions and standing by them. We traded him for someone who seems incapable of making one, but who leads by committee instead. Therein lies the third ogre. I think Obama is an idealist. I think he comes to play with a sheaf of rules by which he assumes everyone else will play. Aside from the fact the right isn't going to play along with him on his terms, the committee's he surrounds himself with have generated several embarrassments, and are in many cases, some of those most despised by the right. So while Obama may in fact be the Great Appeaser, he surrounds himself with those who are not.

A good bit of ridicule that comes his way, comes by nature of the office. Look back and find a president who wasn't ridiculed, who didn't have vocal critics, who wasn't smeared by the opposition and you're probably back somewhere around George Washington. Some of it is warranted. Some is not. Some you just live with because it is the nature of the beast.

Nor can you blame one party for the financial mess the country is in. Attempting to is insisting on being factually incorrect. For every item you can post, someone else can post an opposite. That too comes from the nature of the beast where politicos do what they do with an eye more toward election cycles and maintaining power than they do of actually governing.

What I will say though is that in the past 12 years, the divide between sides seems to have grown wider and deeper, to the point that I don't think any president is going to have an easy ride. Liberals and independents both rallied around Obama in the first election. Independents looked at the moderate tone he brought with him. Liberals well, had lots to rally around, a big part of it being A) he's not Bush, B) he's a democrat, and C) three of the  four branches of power. (Yes, I know there are technically three in executive, legislative and judicial, but the legislative branch is essentially two branches in itself.)

Option C above held great promise. Liberals spent 8 years under Bush being sidelined. Grabbing enough power to not only force legislation through on their agenda was good, but that fact also held the greater promise of being able to seed the high court with individuals more attuned to their cause(s).

The debt ceiling.... is as much of a democratic failure as was a republican. It doesn't take being a rocket scientist. Matter of fact, I told someone here last year what the new crop of republican's would do and that was what they were elected to do. The question came back, what about compromise?

Seriously? After democrats shoved the healthcare bill through before they could be voted out? That set the stage for a crop of newcomers to be willing and able to stand their ground. Obama should have known that, and in fact, I think he did. When it comes to brinkmanship, much of it appears to be manufactured for political purposes. I think everyone was looking at political points to be made and lost. I think that's why we ended up at the last minute. You can argue if you want, but hell, I'm either the new Oracle at predicting what they'd do, or there are a lot of blind folks out there.

I think where republicans are hurting themselves most is with the tax issue. Dems are successfully, and rightfully pointing out that stealing from grandpa while letting the job makers enjoy more of their money, just ain't cool. What neither side is saying is another truth in the mix, that both parties have fed from the trough of Social Security over the years, robbing it and the futures of those who paid into it.

I think Obama wants to be a middle of the road guy. I think he will never have the chance to be as neither side will give it to him. Hate Bush all you want, but he had that ability to say, ok, fine, you hate me. I'll do what I think is right anyway.

I also think as heated as the rhetoric around Obama is, that directed towards his opponents is as heated, and more vile.

Bottom line is the right can't stand the left and left can't stand the right. The war is trying to get enough people in power to force agendas on the other side - and that is not a solution for the future, nor for a Union.




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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 11:55:18 AM   
lockedaway


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I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 11:59:30 AM   
StrangerThan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?


I think the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Like I said on the latest decision, what they said makes sense to me in that if you give Congress this right, there is virtually no end to the power it cedes to them. I think requirement goes beyond regulating commerce to requiring commerce. I think it will fail at the Supreme Court, not because it really is unconstitutional, but because the make-up of the court as is, will probably see it that way. Another Obama-appointee however, and I think we'd be looking at a different decision.


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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:00:55 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?


I think the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Like I said on the latest decision, what they said makes sense to me in that if you give Congress this right, there is virtually no end to the power it cedes to them. I think requirement goes beyond regulating commerce to requiring commerce. I think it will fail at the Supreme Court, not because it really is unconstitutional, but because the make-up of the court as is, will probably see it that way. Another Obama-appointee however, and I think we'd be looking at a different decision.




I dont think the vote will be close. Kagan may be the only dissenter.

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:01:33 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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Keep lying and playing the race card... won't work anymore.





Attachment (1)

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:04:21 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

You mother-fuck`n Bs did all that shit for fuck`n decades, like borow`n out`ya ass like da`ys no tom`arra,live`n off dem credit cards and shit, in-slaving us to the Chinese communists,whatup wit dat?

But as soon a black man gets in,.......then ohhhw noooo.

You say`n we gotta debate debt ceilings and shit now,allova-suden and shit.

Wit a black man as prez-dent,ya`ll gotta balance the budget,like he`s different or somp`m..

So yo B,what you do`n this now and not before,B?

What`s different now, B?



The hypocritical Libs accuse others of being racist, yet... note the above reference to a "black man" and note the use of Ebonics -- as if all African Americans speak this way?!!  Hint to this RACIST POSTER... they don't!!!  But thanks for coming out of your RACIST closet and SHOWING HOW RACIST YOU ARE, OWNER59!!!  Yippie... another RACIST LIB exposed!!!  So do tell, Owner59, where do you hide your KKK Klan Hood between Klan rallies?!!





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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:04:24 PM   
lockedaway


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?


I think the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Like I said on the latest decision, what they said makes sense to me in that if you give Congress this right, there is virtually no end to the power it cedes to them. I think requirement goes beyond regulating commerce to requiring commerce. I think it will fail at the Supreme Court, not because it really is unconstitutional, but because the make-up of the court as is, will probably see it that way. Another Obama-appointee however, and I think we'd be looking at a different decision.



Ok....and I agree with you as well.  This is my question to you and to everyone else on this board.  If a president is trying to abrogate your constitutional rights, how can that president possibly be a good guy and why would you want him living next to you?  It is my opinion, but I believe it is a reasonable one, that anyone that is trying to limit and/or terminate one of your constitutional rights is your enemy.

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:04:46 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?


I think the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Like I said on the latest decision, what they said makes sense to me in that if you give Congress this right, there is virtually no end to the power it cedes to them. I think requirement goes beyond regulating commerce to requiring commerce. I think it will fail at the Supreme Court, not because it really is unconstitutional, but because the make-up of the court as is, will probably see it that way. Another Obama-appointee however, and I think we'd be looking at a different decision.




I dont think the vote will be close. Kagan may be the only dissenter.



I dont even know if she will dissent. Way back when they voted this pig both you and I agreed it was unconstitutional (that clause) and by god if we can agree on anything, I think the world can.......

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:15:30 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Are you still here fighting this stupid fight?



She can't help herself.


quote:


Anyone with a brain and even limited reading ability can pore through this thread and see who and where race was interjected.



Yes... by RacistOwner59 and Tazzy. 


quote:


Many could find offense in the way it was interjected.



I was offended at the disgusting use of Ebonics linked to a "black man" by RacistOwner59, as well as the typical pathetic playing of the "race card" by Tazzy.  This is how they address the failures of Baroccoli OBlunder -- to try and deflect his gross failures to a "race" debate -- but that tactic won't work.  It's as old and tired as their nonsensical blatherings.



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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:17:56 PM   
StrangerThan


Posts: 1515
Joined: 4/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?


I think the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Like I said on the latest decision, what they said makes sense to me in that if you give Congress this right, there is virtually no end to the power it cedes to them. I think requirement goes beyond regulating commerce to requiring commerce. I think it will fail at the Supreme Court, not because it really is unconstitutional, but because the make-up of the court as is, will probably see it that way. Another Obama-appointee however, and I think we'd be looking at a different decision.



Ok....and I agree with you as well.  This is my question to you and to everyone else on this board.  If a president is trying to abrogate your constitutional rights, how can that president possibly be a good guy and why would you want him living next to you?  It is my opinion, but I believe it is a reasonable one, that anyone that is trying to limit and/or terminate one of your constitutional rights is your enemy.



Because I think health care reform is an absolute must. I think Obama believes he's attempting to do the right thing, and I think that many believed that 90 percent of the battle would be getting something in place, that the opposition would wither away with time, and they could fix it as needed.

I don't have a problem with the idea of reforming health care. It needs it and needs it badly. I do have a problem with this specific part. Thing about it too, we're playing with fire. Healthcare and related industries make up a large percentage of the jobs in the US.

Hell,. I'd live next to Bush too. I don;t have a problem with my neighbors.


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--'Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform' - Mark Twain

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Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 12:21:30 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I agree with your posts on basis.  But I have to ask you a question.  You agree that the libs forced the Obamacare through, am I correct?  Do you agree that Obamacare is unconstitutional and violates the Commerce Clause by forcing an American to purchase a product for no other reason than the fact they are alive?


I think the individual mandate is unconstitutional. Like I said on the latest decision, what they said makes sense to me in that if you give Congress this right, there is virtually no end to the power it cedes to them. I think requirement goes beyond regulating commerce to requiring commerce. I think it will fail at the Supreme Court, not because it really is unconstitutional, but because the make-up of the court as is, will probably see it that way. Another Obama-appointee however, and I think we'd be looking at a different decision.



Ok....and I agree with you as well.  This is my question to you and to everyone else on this board.  If a president is trying to abrogate your constitutional rights, how can that president possibly be a good guy and why would you want him living next to you?  It is my opinion, but I believe it is a reasonable one, that anyone that is trying to limit and/or terminate one of your constitutional rights is your enemy.



Because I think health care reform is an absolute must. I think Obama believes he's attempting to do the right thing, and I think that many believed that 90 percent of the battle would be getting something in place, that the opposition would wither away with time, and they could fix it as needed.

I don't have a problem with the idea of reforming health care. It needs it and needs it badly. I do have a problem with this specific part. Thing about it too, we're playing with fire. Healthcare and related industries make up a large percentage of the jobs in the US.

Hell,. I'd live next to Bush too. I don;t have a problem with my neighbors.



Fair enough, I suppose.  If I had a neighbor, however, that was trying to limit a use for my property that I had a constitutional right to pursue, he would find himself with a very aggressive and antagonistic neighbor.  That is how I see Obama........Reid, Pelosi, Schumer, Durbin and the rest of that fecal scum.

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 2:19:11 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

As far as Obama the man goes, I think he's a decent guy. I think I wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor, as a friend, and honestly don't mind him that much as a president. He does however, come across as ineffective and weak. You point to the right of the aisle to highlight that and I'll grant you, if he has demonstrated anything, it is that he has three distinct ogres sitting on his back.

He can be pushed and he will eventually give in. To me that comes across as a man who is driven by those around him more so than one who believes in what he's doing. It makes listening to him an exercise in knowing what those around him really want.

The second is that he comes across as weak tactically, to put it in military terms, and it's not just dealing with the right that underscores it. Strategically, he's good. Tactically he's not. What I mean by that is if a decision has been vetted through enough circles,and enough focus groups, he's willing to make it his decision. The times he needs to make one quickly however, he comes across as anything but decisive. Maybe that's the great appeaser at work. Maybe it's just true that he has a hard time making decisions without shopping the idea around enough to know whether it's good or not. I don't know.

A lot of people hated Bush for making snap decisions and standing by them. We traded him for someone who seems incapable of making one, but who leads by committee instead. Therein lies the third ogre. I think Obama is an idealist. I think he comes to play with a sheaf of rules by which he assumes everyone else will play. Aside from the fact the right isn't going to play along with him on his terms, the committee's he surrounds himself with have generated several embarrassments, and are in many cases, some of those most despised by the right. So while Obama may in fact be the Great Appeaser, he surrounds himself with those who are not.

A good bit of ridicule that comes his way, comes by nature of the office. Look back and find a president who wasn't ridiculed, who didn't have vocal critics, who wasn't smeared by the opposition and you're probably back somewhere around George Washington. Some of it is warranted. Some is not. Some you just live with because it is the nature of the beast.

Nor can you blame one party for the financial mess the country is in. Attempting to is insisting on being factually incorrect. For every item you can post, someone else can post an opposite. That too comes from the nature of the beast where politicos do what they do with an eye more toward election cycles and maintaining power than they do of actually governing.

What I will say though is that in the past 12 years, the divide between sides seems to have grown wider and deeper, to the point that I don't think any president is going to have an easy ride. Liberals and independents both rallied around Obama in the first election. Independents looked at the moderate tone he brought with him. Liberals well, had lots to rally around, a big part of it being A) he's not Bush, B) he's a democrat, and C) three of the  four branches of power. (Yes, I know there are technically three in executive, legislative and judicial, but the legislative branch is essentially two branches in itself.)

Option C above held great promise. Liberals spent 8 years under Bush being sidelined. Grabbing enough power to not only force legislation through on their agenda was good, but that fact also held the greater promise of being able to seed the high court with individuals more attuned to their cause(s).

The debt ceiling.... is as much of a democratic failure as was a republican. It doesn't take being a rocket scientist. Matter of fact, I told someone here last year what the new crop of republican's would do and that was what they were elected to do. The question came back, what about compromise?

Seriously? After democrats shoved the healthcare bill through before they could be voted out? That set the stage for a crop of newcomers to be willing and able to stand their ground. Obama should have known that, and in fact, I think he did. When it comes to brinkmanship, much of it appears to be manufactured for political purposes. I think everyone was looking at political points to be made and lost. I think that's why we ended up at the last minute. You can argue if you want, but hell, I'm either the new Oracle at predicting what they'd do, or there are a lot of blind folks out there.

I think where republicans are hurting themselves most is with the tax issue. Dems are successfully, and rightfully pointing out that stealing from grandpa while letting the job makers enjoy more of their money, just ain't cool. What neither side is saying is another truth in the mix, that both parties have fed from the trough of Social Security over the years, robbing it and the futures of those who paid into it.

I think Obama wants to be a middle of the road guy. I think he will never have the chance to be as neither side will give it to him. Hate Bush all you want, but he had that ability to say, ok, fine, you hate me. I'll do what I think is right anyway.

I also think as heated as the rhetoric around Obama is, that directed towards his opponents is as heated, and more vile.

Bottom line is the right can't stand the left and left can't stand the right. The war is trying to get enough people in power to force agendas on the other side - and that is not a solution for the future, nor for a Union.





Well written!


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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 3:06:28 PM   
samboct


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ST

I agree with a lot of your post- Obama is definitely trying to be a middle of the road guy. What speaks volumes to me though, is that the Republicans have had a chance to get some legislation through now that they could never pass previously- and the opportunity has been squandered. There was an opportunity for reform of Medicare and Medicaid- the Republicans then proclaimed "death panels" as if the insurance companies are somehow above putting profits before an individuals life. There are tons of problems to solve- but when people can't agree on the basic facts of the situation, it's very difficult to make much progress. And that's what's happened.....

Your comment about "ramming the health care bill through" is instructive. It's Romney's plan for MA and it's been pretty popular in that state. But that was a Republican plan- it just got passed on a national level by a Democrat. It's still not radical enough to solve anything, but I suspect Obama was hoping that there might be some sanity on the Republican aisle- and that the idea that they get legislation through that's important to them would be more critical than who's running the show. Democrats tend to think that way- they go to their constituents and say- but I brought X back for you....It's not relevant that either the Republicans or the Democrats are in a majority. But what's clear is that the Republicans are saying that the only thing that will satisfy them is being back in power because all they're doing is throwing rocks. See Grover Norquist.... Unfortunately, that's not how a democracy is supposed to work.

In terms of your comment about Obama's decision making process- well, if Time magazine is even close to on target about the raid that got Bin Laden- your analysis is strikingly flawed. Obama was quite decisive- and made the call- the correct one as it turns out. A weenie move would have been bombing or a missile attack- instead, he put boots on the ground in a sovereign country- to hell with the consequences.

I must admit, I'm puzzled by his lack of gumption with the Republicans. It may be that he's afraid of being seen as a strident black man- that he's afraid of engendering hatred because of all the emotional baggage that means for a black American. Or he may think that partisanship is even worse than allowing the Republicans to drive us over the edge economically.

And sorry- but I don't agree with your assessment that the current crisis gets laid at the feet of both parties. That's like saying when one spouse takes the credit card and runs up a big debt, that its the fault of both. It's the responsibility of both- but that's not the same as not laying blame.

On the other hand- the Obama administration should have been putting people in jail for the banking debacle. How come Martha Stewart got jail time, but none of the Wall St. gang did? I'm not saying Martha didn't deserve her jail time- she's a CEO, she knows what insider trading is. But it does seem like the laws against securities fraud are being very selectively enforced.....


Sam

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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/16/2011 3:39:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

ST

I agree with a lot of your post- Obama is definitely trying to be a middle of the road guy.



If by "middle of the road" you mean "Be absent so no one can pin the tail on the donkey" youre right. He's far from trying be middle of the road policy wise.

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to the barking of the dogfox,
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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/17/2011 6:14:31 AM   
StrangerThan


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Actually sam, I don't see the bin Laden affair as a decisive moment for Obama, but rather a decision that made its rounds for months. I mean the intel had the house pegged for a long time. It wasn't a he's there, let's go get him kind of thing. That doesn't lessen the value of the decision, it's just not what I'm talking about. If you want examples, take Libya and the debt ceiling debate. Obama came across in both as ineffective, and honestly, both unable to make a decision and stand by it until it had been vetted. I think I'm one of the few who support him in Libya, but hell that decision was a long time coming, and like the debt ceiling, an 11th hour deal. Gaddy was on the verge of crushing the rebels. Another few days, maybe even a couple more days and there would have been nothing to debate but the aftermath.

So you hold democrats blameless for the current crisis? Which crisis would that be? The economy? The debt? The lack of jobs? The housing bubble implosion? The continuing presence in Afghanistan? Iraq? Libya? Cuba? A wildly fluctuating stock market that kills and builds fortunes week to week? Social Security? Medicare and Medicaid? The downgrade in the credit rating? The lack of faith our own people have in our politicians?

Which one of these, or is it all that dems wear the sainted crown of being blameless? Because from my viewpoint, they are hip deep in as much shit as the republicans are. Even down to the debt ceiling debate. I mean fuck, if you and I are bargaining over something where you say, the most I will absolutely pay is $10 and I take it down to the wire trying to get $12 out of you, it's your fault, and only your fault? Obama underestimated the resolve in Congress. Either that was the case, or he played the game of brinkmanship to bring the most harm to the other side.

Bush walked into a good economy. Obama walked into a bad one. There wasn't much either could do to change the outcome of it though. The die for that was cast long ago in shipping jobs out of this country, in adopting a liberal housing plan that ignored the fact that eventually, someone has to pay the bill, in opening doors to a vast sea of credit that has virtually disappeared. And that's all republicans?  Gotcha.

I'm not a lawyer, but a lot of the economic crap that failed, failed in legal ways. I mean, it wasn't against the law to make bad loans, to come up with inventive ways to give money to folks who could never repay it.

Shrug.




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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/17/2011 6:18:47 AM   
Sanity


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He continues to vote "present"

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

ST

I agree with a lot of your post- Obama is definitely trying to be a middle of the road guy.



If by "middle of the road" you mean "Be absent so no one can pin the tail on the donkey" youre right. He's far from trying be middle of the road policy wise.


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RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/17/2011 6:22:05 AM   
Sanity


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FLASH: President to lay out jobs plan -- after vacation...

(And after three years as president... finally a jobs plan)


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(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/17/2011 6:23:09 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
Light years faster than the republicans could come with one, which they never ever actually have.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/17/2011 7:24:25 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
8 months in and still waiting on something the republican leadership......crickets

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Obama's Failed Administration - 8/17/2011 7:29:53 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

Keep lying and playing the race card... won't work anymore.






That's the funniest thing about this all.

We keep hearing about the "race card".

But no one but conservativies keep bringing up race.

(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 140
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