RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (Full Version)

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Arpig -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 4:03:41 PM)

You know, that is true, but again, a few simple steps on the users part will foil any attempt. As I said when people use my relay, they are using my computer to connect. When I use their relay, I am using their computer to connect. It isn't just IP mapping.

However, there is one way that a person could know for certain that an account is a sockpuppet. If it is their sockpuppet.

That being said, when 21 said
quote:

since your posts have nothing to do with improving the forums.
she couldn't have been further from the truth. Having the Moderators perform their duties in a professional and impartial manner is vital to the smooth running of any forum. Up until now, I would have been the first to cheer the present moderation team, I think they do a fabulous job. however, in this particular instance a very important line was crossed.
When this was brought up, the moderator in question's basic response has been to issue veiled threats. Totally unacceptable. All the improvements in the world will not do a thing to help this place if Moderators are free to pronounce their opinions of other posters under their Moderator accounts. This is the single most important issue on this thread, because what 21 is saying is either
1) I will punish you if I dislike what you post by making unfounded accusations against you using my position as a Moderator to lend credence to my accusations.
Or
2) I feel free to reveal personal information about members when I dislike what they post.

Either of these attitudes are the first signs of a moderator who's power has gone to their head. And anybody who has been on a forum with a power mad mod knows how quickly that destroys a place.
I have no idea who the OP of that thread is, but if they aren't a sockpuppet, they will forever more be branded one on here because the site administration has publicly stated that they are.

Put yourself in that position, a Moderator dislikes what you say, so you are openly "exposed" as a fake by the site administration. The next step is moderating or banning people for saying things they don't like.

Is that really the sort of forum you want?



Arpig -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 4:05:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

That's what I'm missing - a fanbase. I'm gonna have to git me one of those.
You actually already have one, it's just not the 'Oh he's so brilliant" sort of fan base, more the "Oh let's see what idiocy he's posted today" fanbase. I for one will always read your stuff for its tremendous comedic value.
  Arpig, one day when you grow up and become a real boy, you'll look back on your old self with dismay and think "Was I really that sad and pathetic?"

I'll send an answer to your future self, just because I'm good like that.  Yes Arpig.  Yes you were.

I knew it! I guess my "model" is superb isn't it? [:D]



Awareness -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 4:16:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Oye..pot meet kettle
  Woman, when you do something other than play cheerleader, you might produce a post worthy of something above contempt.  Your last two posts have been arbitrary nonsense in which you praise someone for no other reason than the fact that they opposed something I said and then hilariously attempt to belittle me as though your opinion is in any way one worthy of respect.

Here's an idea and I'll give you this clue for free.  If you're going to praise someone's post - say why.  If you're going to condemn it, also say why.  This pathetic cheerleading where all you do is wave a flag for someone is as clear a demonstration yet that you're an empty shell with all the self-determination of a pebble drifting in an ocean you can't even begin to understand.



Awareness -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 4:17:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
I knew it! I guess my "model" is superb isn't it? [:D]
  What, you've got a model of the lesbian foursome in your home now?  Sheesh Arpig, give it up.  They're never gonna flash you some gash.



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 4:29:08 PM)

Ummm Bob a few things:

1) I think 21 mean the posts you made to prove that it's impossible to trace someone through their IP address

2) I STILL can't remember any of the Mods posting someone's personal info. Examples would be nice.

3) what unfounded accusations?



Rule -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 4:39:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
Having the Moderators perform their duties in a professional and impartial manner is vital to the smooth running of any forum.

QFT

Arpig, I respect you for saying this.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 5:03:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

  • That being said, when 21 said
    quote:

    since your posts have nothing to do with improving the forums.
    she couldn't have been further from the truth. Having the Moderators perform their duties in a professional and impartial manner is vital to the smooth running of any forum.
  • Up until now, I would have been the first to cheer the present moderation team, I think they do a fabulous job. however, in this particular instance a very important line was crossed.
  • When this was brought up, the moderator in question's basic response has been to issue veiled threats. Totally unacceptable. All the improvements in the world will not do a thing to help this place if Moderators are free to pronounce their opinions of other posters under their Moderator accounts. This is the single most important issue on this thread, because what 21 is saying is either
1) I will punish you if I dislike what you post by making unfounded accusations against you using my position as a Moderator to lend credence to my accusations.
Or
2) I feel free to reveal personal information about members when I dislike what they post.

Either of these attitudes are the first signs of a moderator who's power has gone to their head. And anybody who has been on a forum with a power mad mod knows how quickly that destroys a place.
I have no idea who the OP of that thread is, but if they aren't a sockpuppet, they will forever more be branded one on here because the site administration has publicly stated that they are.

Put yourself in that position, a Moderator dislikes what you say, so you are openly "exposed" as a fake by the site administration. The next step is moderating or banning people for saying things they don't like.

Is that really the sort of forum you want?



I grouped your points to make referencing back to them a bit easier.  I hope you don't mind my slight modification with your post.

I've been here a few years and have seen the different moderation styles.  I've watched as people left for Fetlife when the moderation was too tough.  I've also seen how a concerted effort was made to lighten moderation somewhat, in answer to those concerns, showing that the site administrators were listening, and I've seen several references from others who have noted this as well.  So, I do agree that professional behavior by a site administrator/moderator is important, and it would appear that the moderators agree since changes were made in the past to try and correct things.

Now, you stated yourself that up until that one situation, you approved of current moderation behavior.  I'm not going to pass judgement on whether 21 made a mistake or not.  I'm just speaking to you on the points of YOUR expressed concerns.  Even if 21 did screw up, and step over a boundary line, if her previous body of work was acceptable to you then it is somewhat over the top to tar and feather her before roasting her alive over one mistake.  People mess up from time to time.  It is part of the human condition.  It doesn't mean that she's suddenly become a rabid-power mongering moderator.  I think you'd have seen evidence of that sooner than later, if it was the case, and I doubt you'd have said that up until that point you would be the first to praise the actions of the moderators.

Finally, I'm not sure that I'm interpreting what Mod21 is saying the same as you are.  I interpreted it not that she didn't like what was being said.  She didn't address what was said, but what appeared to be a cowardly snipe from behind an unknown facade. 

Now, I do get the point made about the power a moderator wields when they make a statement, as opposed to the simple power of suggestion a poster might have.

I think, since this was the first reference made by a moderator (that I know of) to a particular user being a sock puppet - that the moderators do respect the identities of the users.  Since that's the case, I'm left feeling as if this was either a human error that very likely won't be repeated - or there was another reason that the moderator felt it was important to make the reference she did.  Either way, if it isn't a consistent problem, isn't likely to be a consistent problem and hasn't actually been a problem in the past -it probably isn't really that big of a problem now. 

I also believe that the point was  made by several users and the moderators heard it loud and clear.  Since you've said yourself that you appreciated them up until this point, then I'm sure you agree that they care about behaving in a professional manner, and this thread proves that Alpha is interested in hearing from the users of this site.  The rest will just have to come out in the wash. 

I think I'm starting to become a bit redundant in my wording so I'll just step away from this for now.  Hopefully I was clear.  There have been a lot of distractions here and I've started, stopped and went back to this post several times.  I'm afraid it might be a bit disjointed.



Rule -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 5:18:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
She didn't address what was said, but what appeared to be a cowardly snipe from behind an unknown facade.

I agree that using sock-puppets usually does not reflect well on the owner of the puppets. The words 'coward' and 'fraud' will often come to mind.



JstAnotherSub -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 5:34:21 PM)

There is no one who is going to be able to always appear to be fair  and impartial to everyone, because everyone here feels differently about what is fair and impartial.

Shit, even trying to decide what BDSM stands for on here starts a ruckus. 

You can not make thousands of folks happy all the time.  I think the mods, all of them since I first got on this site, do a damn good job of herding the fucking cats. 

I would like to vote for showing a fast reply as a fast reply though.  That is one improvement that I could get behind!




Arpig -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 5:50:53 PM)

quote:

Since that's the case, I'm left feeling as if this was either a human error that very likely won't be repeated
In which case, simply doing what  Pi did..."Ooops sorry, I screwed up" would have sufficed. However her reaction to being called on it was to repeat the accusation, point fingers, and issue veiled threats and further accusations. Simply not acceptable beahaviour from a Mod.

quote:

or there was another reason that the moderator felt it was important to make the reference she did.
There are no syuch reasons that are acceptable. If it is that important that the person's views be countered, then have VAA counter them with one of her official announcements, not by playing P&R games of "Oh a sockpuppet!" . There are, as far as I know, no rules on this forum limiting in any way the number of accounts a person may have and post under. Obviously sockpuppetry is frowned on, but too often the accusation of "SOCKPUPPET!" is used to discount what the person is saying without in any way addressing the issue raised.

If you go back and reread the thread, the "cowardly sniping" wasn't anything of the sort, at least not to my eye, it was a dismissal of somebody else's dismissal of the OP's premise.

21 got butt hurt at the implication that Mods were losers, which implication wasn't made, it was not an actual statement of opinion, it was a clumsy attempt at a sarcastic rephrasing of a remark that Hannah had too much on her plate to be a Mod. 21 misread it, in my opinion, to be an actual accusation, and in typical P&R fashion replied with "you're a sockpuppet, why not have the guts to accuse us openly", when nobody had been accused of anything. She then continued to harp on the sockpuppet theme, just like any regular poster without a "Moderator" under their name might do.

One might ask her why 21 felt the need to hide behind the anonimity of her Moderator account to make the accusation. How was a poster posting openly on an account that had posted several times previously on various forums on various topics "cowardly sniping from hiding" when using an admittedly anonymous account that is immune from opposition when one has a regular account that could be used, not "cowardly sniping"?

I have liked 21, she is one of the best Mods we have, but she crossed a line that should not be crossed, and rather than admit she was out of line, she has continued to imply she has knowledge of what she said being true (further compounding her error) and to make vague threats. I'm sorry, I really think 21 is just about the best, but unless she backs down from her present position, I think she should be dismissed, as she is clearly not carrying out her duties or exercising her power impartially. And it doesn't matter how good she has been, if she cannot be impartial, she is unfit for the position. Exactly the point many have brought up in that other thread about its putative subject being a Mod.



Arpig -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 5:52:21 PM)

quote:

There is no one who is going to be able to always appear to be fair and impartial to everyone, because everyone here feels differently about what is fair and impartial.
Irrelevant to the issue. Appearing impartial has nothing to do with being openly and obviously impartial.



gungadin09 -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:11:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Ummm Bob a few things:

1) I think 21 mean the posts you made to prove that it's impossible to trace someone through their IP address

Arpig is arguing that it's impossible for anyone but a sock puppet to know that they're a sock puppet. Mod21 accused a poster of being a sock puppet on this thread:

www.collarchat.com/m_3839135/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3839167

I believe Arpig's point is that, not only is it impossible for Mod21 to know whether that's true, but it's also unethical for a moderator to be disparaging posters, especially since the accusation will be accepted as truth by many forum members.

2) I STILL can't remember any of the Mods posting someone's personal info. Examples would be nice.

See above. The "personal info" is the fact that a certain poster is using a sock puppet, if that is indeed a fact. That claim was made by Mod21 as though it were a fact, as though she has some way of knowing it (for example, if she had seen that the two IP addresses were the same). Arpig is saying, even that wouldn't PROVE it, and she shouldn't have said it anyway.

3) what unfounded accusations?

Accusing someone of being a sock puppet, which if it is true constitutes disclosing personal info about a use (that they are posting under two different user names), and if it is not true constitutes an unfounded accusation.


pam



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:17:49 PM)

Well no Pam it's just showing that the person has more than one account. It doesn't tell anyone PERSONAL info which I define as where they live, their real name etc.



gungadin09 -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:21:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Well no Pam it's just showing that the person has more than one account. It doesn't tell anyone PERSONAL info which I define as where they live, their real name etc.


Fine, it's a matter of semantics. i still think that the moderators have no business outing posters as sock puppets, or even speculating about it, under the guise of moderator.

pam



LadyHibiscus -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:26:23 PM)

How was anyone "outed"? I someone announces "S is the sock of K", that's outting. To say someone is a saock, so what? The site admins can see all of a person's account names.



LaTigresse -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:31:53 PM)

Apparently the mod in question has plenty of friends that want to claim black and white to argue a point of grey.

Had the situation involved different characters but the same words I think that the discussion would be a lot more definitive. I could be wrong, but that is the vibe I am getting. OR, we have a few attourneys hanging out around here wanting to argue semantics.

Shit was IMPLIED, I can be dense as a post but I got the implication and saw it similarly to what Arp is describing. If that makes somone's friend less that perfect, well too bad. I think we all realize that we are all human, all imperfect, and all do dumbass shit. This particular time the dumbassery was on the part of the crew running the place. Most of the time it's one or more of the rest of us. What's the big fucking deal????



Arpig -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:33:20 PM)

The TOS in no way restricts the number of profiles a person may have, therefore it is nobody's business how many profiles a person has but that of the person in question. Agreed?

Now, if it their business and nobody else's, then it is a personal matter.

Therefore, any information relating to that matter, is likewise personal

Thus, personal information.

It is no different than if you had a penchant for scat that wasn't mentioned in your profile and I mentioned that you did.

Any information whatsoever about a member that is not in their profile or their posts, is personal.




zephyroftheNorth -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:37:31 PM)

I honestly don't see the big deal about people knowing about other profiles - unless of course you have a reason to hide stuff. Actually I don't see the need to have more than one profile. ~shrugs~ I would be much more upset if stuff that could ID me offline were to be made public. In the grand scheme of things I don't see the big deal here.

ETA: Actually I think people should be accountable for what they say and creating anonymous sock puppets to avoid that is cowardly. You believe it say it - under your known account.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:37:59 PM)

No argument there, and it is indeed personal to say something that only you know--my point is that it isn't OUTING.




Arpig -> RE: This is your chance, speak now or forever hold your peace! :) (9/10/2011 6:38:56 PM)

quote:

What's the big fucking deal????
Because, the mod in question has continued to refuse that she was making an unfounded accusation, stating that those objecting are making assumptions (thus again implying that the accusation was true), reinforcing the idea that she was stating fact rather than just an opinion.

As well, it is inappropriate for any member of the administrative crew to publicly express any sort of judgment on members while wearing their official hat.



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