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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 9:44:09 AM

peppermint

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From: Montana
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The last time I didn't get a flu shot I ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. Now I have damaged lungs that will never work as they did before the pneumonia. I never miss that shot now, never. Any more damage and I'll be sitting around the house on oxygen all day watching boring TV or dead.

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 21

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:00:38 AM

soul2share

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On the few occasions I was forced to get a flu shot, I ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL ended up sick with pnemonia, bronchitis, or one hell of a cold. I say forced, because I was in the military. I know, all of you are going to tell me that you can't get sick from the flu shot, but I'm not a huge believer in that kind of coincidence. I had never gotten any strain of flu prior to that time, and since I got those damn flu shots, I get colds and yes, once the flu, too easily. ALl I have to do is be next to someone who says the damn word, and I get sick.

Personally, I'll take my chances with the bugs.

As far as the OP, I've had issues with all the folks who seem to think that vaccines are bad news. Not sure where you are doing your research, but if it's not from an accredited medical source, I'd think twice about it. My son had the reaction to his first DPT, we simply took out the one vaccine, and he got the other two. He got the basic ones required at the time for school and what not. He's fine.

Your moral decision is totally up to you. Me, I'd suck it up and keep the job, especially in these times. But you have to follow your own compass and heart. Us telling you what you should do is really bad advice. Good luck.

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Post #: 22

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:05:06 AM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

On the few occasions I was forced to get a flu shot, I ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL ended up sick with pnemonia, bronchitis, or one hell of a cold. I say forced, because I was in the military. I know, all of you are going to tell me that you can't get sick from the flu shot, but I'm not a huge believer in that kind of coincidence. I had never gotten any strain of flu prior to that time, and since I got those damn flu shots, I get colds and yes, once the flu, too easily. ALl I have to do is be next to someone who says the damn word, and I get sick.

Interesting thing. There was a meeting at work (local hospital) when H1N1 was in full swing. In answer to those who believe the flu shot makes people sick, one of our Infectious Diseases docs told us that the shot takes about 6 weeks to kick in. In that time, anyone who gets sick had the misfortune to be exposed to the flu and got sick. So s2s if that happened in that 6-week window, it was just a coincidence.

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Post #: 23

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:07:37 AM

FirmhandKY

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FR:

The moral dilemma aspect:

Unless you believe that flu shots cause more pain than they prevent, then you are obligated to give at least the minimum required support to your employer on selling the flu shots.

If you believe otherwise, then you should find another job or attempt to work out an understanding with your employer (not likely, but an option).

However, you might find this article interesting;

Does the Vaccine Matter?

Firm

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Post #: 24

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:12:54 AM

IrishMist

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There are instances, they are rare, but they are there, where the shots have actually caused some to become seriously ill. Not because they already had the virus in their system either. However, it does not change the fact that in most instances, the shots DO HELP to prevent a person from becoming ill. My reisistance to taking them myself is rooted in other areas, not a fear of becoming ill myself.

I try very hard not to tell others to either get them or not to get them. It's a choice that they have to make themselves, and once made, have to accept responsibility for any action that occurs because of their decision. A good example is after getting the hepatitis series, all of us were very sick. My oldest had a severe reaction to it. It did not cause me to stop the shots though. Another good example is myself and the tetnaus shot that is mandatory. As a child, I had a severe reaction to it. However, I have faithfully gone and received a booster every ten years, despite the fact that I still have reactions to the shot.

In regards to shots that are not mandatory; and a person is being told that 'they have no choice' in getting one. All I can answer is...make your own informed decision and then accept responsibility for the consequences.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:19:18 AM

Kaliko

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Siamsa, as someone who does have some not-too-mainstream beliefs, I have come to the simple conclusion that at some point, our values will be compromised. You need to weigh the pros and cons. Yes, you may be uncomfortable pushing the flu shot. But if that's the case, (and...I may sound ignorant here because I am - I don't know much about vaccinations, but you'll get the jist of what I'm saying), aren't you also supporting the companies that manufacture the flu shots by representing a store that supports them by selling their products? I'm sure that the companies that make the flu shots also have their hands in many different aspects of health care. I would also venture a guess that often enough, when you make a purchase, it is indirectly going to somehow fund the research and marketing for that very flu shot. There is a lot that you could be doing, or not doing, to direct your support away from the flu shot. Wearing a t-shirt at work is not going to make or break your impact.

Now, that being said, everybody has their limits. It just might be your line in the sand. And if that's the case, then that's the case. But then it comes down to weighing the pros and cons. Can you really afford to quit your job?

I'm a vegetarian. But I and some other coworkers had to serve a breakfast to staff that consisted of meat products. I could have taken a stand. But,...if I did so, would it have been the best use of my efforts?

I have to admit, I wouldn't be thrilled about being forced to wear a t-shirt that says something to the effect of "Eat a cow." The t-shirt thing does kind of bother me. Can you wear a vest or sweater over it to cover the words?

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 26

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:42:24 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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Why should someone with an education be asked to be an in person telemarketer?

Surely she has skills...

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Post #: 27

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 10:51:35 AM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soul2share

On the few occasions I was forced to get a flu shot, I ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL ended up sick with pnemonia, bronchitis, or one hell of a cold. I say forced, because I was in the military. I know, all of you are going to tell me that you can't get sick from the flu shot, but I'm not a huge believer in that kind of coincidence. I had never gotten any strain of flu prior to that time, and since I got those damn flu shots, I get colds and yes, once the flu, too easily. ALl I have to do is be next to someone who says the damn word, and I get sick.

Pnuemonia and bronchitis can have many different causes. If you didn't actually have other flu symptoms it is extremely unlikely you had the flu.

(in reply to soul2share)

Post #: 28

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 2:45:20 PM

soul2share

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My point is that until I got the first flu shot, I NEVER had the flu of any strain. And I was around for the big scares in the '70's and 80's. Since I got the things in the military, it seems that now I'm susceptible to just about any kind of respiratory infection put there. I do know however, that on two occasions, I was exposed to co-workers who ended up with the flu, and I was fine.....not so much as a sniffle. And this was without having the shots.

As for the 6 week thing, I do know that prior to getting the shots, everyone around me was healthy and flu-free. I'm not trying to convince anyone here about them getting the shots, I'm only stating that I won't get them. For me to get the flu shots 3 times, and end up gravely ill after each one just is a bit more than I can chalk up to coincidence. I am reasonably healthy as far as colds and stuff go, I haven't even had a sinus infection in 7 years.....don't know how much of that is do to relocation, but it sure worked!

Something else I've given thought to....the way we peddle drugs and antibiotics and other preventative medicine is just making the bugs more resistant. Strains mutate, and what used to work no longer did. Even when my son was younger, he had ear infections from the time he was 6 months old to 2 years old when he finally got tubes, and the docs were constantly changing the antibiotics because it got to where they stopped working. And there is no one more miserable, or heartbreaking, than an infant with an ear infection. I used to wish the pain would come to me instead of him.

Just my .05 worth.....oh, and Ken, the bout of flu I had actually went from the flu strain to viral pnemonia......that was the doc's diagnosis, not mine. At that point, I felt fine....totally lost my voice trying to hack the crap out of my chest, but still, ended up with pnemonia. I know they have different causes, but again.......it's just a bit much for coincidence.

< Message edited by soul2share -- 9/10/2011 2:48:17 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 29

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 3:05:13 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

the way we peddle drugs and antibiotics and other preventative medicine is just making the bugs more resistant. Strains mutate, and what used to work no longer did.

Nope, people stopping the antibiotic when they feel better and people having to stop the antibiotic because they had side effects that were too serious for them to keep taking it are the reasons antibiotics don't work as well or at all.

_____________________________

And there's a smile when the pain comes
The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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(in reply to soul2share)

Post #: 30

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 3:12:24 PM

JstAnotherSub

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I got the flu when my son was a baby. Since then, I have gotten the flu shot every year.

Most people, when they say they had the flu, are down for a day or two, with cough and maybe a lil fever, then back to work, talking about they had a flu bug.

The flu lays your ass down for a week or more, with horrid high fever, feeling like you have been beaten with a ball bat and you are weak as hell for a long time after you start to get better.

I will continue to get the shot, because I never ever wanna be that sick again.

To the OP, you have to decide for your self. Personally, I do not think you wearing a shirt is going to change anyone's mind about getting the shot or not, but you are the one that looks in the mirror and has to like the person they see. Good luck.

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Post #: 31

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 7:01:36 PM

siamsa24

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I truly hope that none of you have to go through what I went through with vaccine reactions, watching my 2 month old having seizures (DTaP vaccine) and then less then 2 weeks later watching her struggle to breathe and having a tube placed in her throat (Hib vaccine). I had always questioned it, which is why I wanted them given one at a time, but that made my choice for me. I took several classes in immunology (I was a pre-med) and that only solidified my position (at that point I decided medicine wasn't for me, I can't work for the medical machine like that, I am now working towards a degree in business, although I still take some medical classes just for fun, I love medicine and the human body).

The hospital told me the reactions were "unrelated" but then could never tell me why each reaction happened within less then 24 hours and why she hasn't had anything like that happen since I stopped giving her those particular vaccines. Even her pediatrician agrees that she shouldn't have some of the vaccines and should have the ones that she DOES get on an alternate schedule because of her severe reactions and her family history.

One of my younger sister is one of the youngest people in the US to be diagnosed with Addison's Disease, she was diagnosed at age 14, but started having seizures one day after her DTaP and MMR vaccines at age 4, and started showing strong signs of Addison's less then a week following her meningitis vaccine in junior high, and my mom has Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, diagnosed about a month after her last flu shot, even though she started having symptoms within 3 days of the shot, both, apparently, are also unrelated to vaccines.

I, personally, have Asperger syndrome, which I started showing signs of when I was 12 months old (first MMR) and my symptoms grew worse and peaked when I was about 13 (my last MMR) and hasn't declined since then. For her, it is more of a risk to continue the vaccines then risk of getting the disease (this is not just my opinion, her pediatrician believes it too, he also believes my Asperger's is related to my MMR vaccines, he says that the MMR can aggravate an underlying condition).

I do appreciate the input, I was not intending to start a vaccine debate, it was more of a question of what would you do if you were asked to do something at work that directly conflicted with your personal beliefs, perhaps I should have left the vaccine thing out of it.

Thank you.

edited because I was trying to type too fast and made mistakes

< Message edited by siamsa24 -- 9/10/2011 7:05:43 PM >

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 32

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 7:25:51 PM

Termyn8or

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As you have seen there is - umm - a herd mentality when it comes to herd immunity. Of course this is what turned this into a debate about vaccinations rather than the moral issue.

Do what the boss says. That's it. You obviously have a kid, that job is an immunity from the kids starving. Don't take the shots, don't let them give the kid(s) the shots if you think that's the right thing to do. But your morals mean nothing at work.

Alot of people do alot worse for a buck. Don't feel guilty. If someone keels over from the shot at work even right in front of you, it is not your fault. You are in their employ, as such your actions and the responsibility for them is theirs.

As far as what the people here say, especially the ones who would ask where is your medical degree, ask them where is theirs. They either have the degree and can and will speak intelligently about the subject or they don't. If they don't it is likely that you are more well informed than they are.

You would be amazed at what people do for money. There is a chance that one of the people you are forced to advise to have a flu shot falls ill because of it. Pish posh. There are plenty of people who will easily intentionally wreck someone's life for pennies. The policymakers at you employer are among them. Feign the respect they demand and do your job. There are worse things in life.

You can't afford to care, so don't tear yourself up over this.

T^T

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 33

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/10/2011 11:44:13 PM

outhere69

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I used to get the vaccine especially since I have asthma. It's bad enough when a cold drops into my chest, let alone the flu.

The problem I have is that I get an infusion of immune globulin to whack my immune system so it stops attacking me. That infusion makes vaccines ineffective; you have to wait 4 months after an infusion before getting a vaccine. Not sure what I'm going to do if I need a tetanus shot. I can't stop the infusions for 4 months.

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Post #: 34

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 12:51:22 AM

Awareness

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This nonsense around vaccines does ever so much more harm than good.

Sometimes people are allergic to aspects of the shot, but it's not the virus itself. There are two main fundamental types of vaccine.

The first is where an attenuated flu virus is delivered. The slight risk with this approach is that even attenuated viruses can potentially mutate into something more virulent, although the chances of this aren't high.

The second is where the virus is destroyed. These present no risk whatsoever as it's the mere shell of the virus which the immune system matches against, there's no RNA/DNA delivery and thus, no chance of infection.

There are potential problems related to virus manufacture, safe handling, delivery and allergies in human beings, however this is a risk inherent in any medicine. Vaccination has done more to increase the health of people today than practically any other discovery in human history - with the possible exception of high-yield agriculture.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 5:00:13 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

This nonsense around vaccines does ever so much more harm than good.

Sometimes people are allergic to aspects of the shot, but it's not the virus itself. There are two main fundamental types of vaccine.

The first is where an attenuated flu virus is delivered. The slight risk with this approach is that even attenuated viruses can potentially mutate into something more virulent, although the chances of this aren't high.

The second is where the virus is destroyed. These present no risk whatsoever as it's the mere shell of the virus which the immune system matches against, there's no RNA/DNA delivery and thus, no chance of infection.

There are potential problems related to virus manufacture, safe handling, delivery and allergies in human beings, however this is a risk inherent in any medicine. Vaccination has done more to increase the health of people today than practically any other discovery in human history - with the possible exception of high-yield agriculture.

Then why is her store practicing medicine??? WHY

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 36

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 5:32:23 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: soul2share

My point is that until I got the first flu shot, I NEVER had the flu of any strain. And I was around for the big scares in the '70's and 80's. Since I got the things in the military, it seems that now I'm susceptible to just about any kind of respiratory infection put there. I do know however, that on two occasions, I was exposed to co-workers who ended up with the flu, and I was fine.....not so much as a sniffle. And this was without having the shots.

Military life, like dorm life in college, is a situation ripe for the spread of respiratory illness. In boot you sleep in a single large room with a bunch of people from widely seperated areas. Even after boot many servicepeople live in a crowded environment.

Since then you are likely still being exposed to a wider cross section of people than you were as a child.

(in reply to soul2share)

Post #: 37

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 5:45:23 AM

DeviantlyD

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If it were me, I would consult an attorney to find out if your employer can fire you over your objections to them forcing you to do something against your moral beliefs. But I don't know if that's a possibility for you. Add to that the fact that your employer could retaliate and fire you for "other" reasons, makes it a situation where you're pretty much fucked, sorry to say. So the second option would be to quietly seek out a similar position with a different organization that isn't so zealous in their promotion of vaccinations. I know that doesn't help right now, but I don't know what other options you might have.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 6:52:40 AM

lizi

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I worked with a woman once who was let go from her job for refusing to follow along with the party line on an issue. It happens. Even if it's not all by the book legal it happens. You may find yourself being treated in ways that don't benefit you on the job by making waves. By management, by coworkers. I'm not a shrinking violet by any means, and I know it's very diffiicult to suck something up that is very important to you for the sake of keeping your job, but you do have a family that depends on your income. It's nice to think that you can have the best of all worlds but that is rarely the case in any scenario.

The basic needs of your family trump anything else that is personal for you. That's my feeling as a mother, and an adult that others have had to depend on. If you and your husband can make it financially on one salary then go ahead and take the luxury of being able to stand up for what you believe in. If not, than you owe it to the people who depend on you to stay with the status quo. Being reponsible sucks, but it's the most important thing here in my opinion.

(in reply to siamsa24)

Post #: 39

RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 7:09:05 AM

Tantriqu

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Asperger's and autism spectra have been proven time and again to have nothing to do with vaccines, and the tenuous connection was caused by one doctor's greed about promoting his own vaccine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/autism.html

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Post #: 40

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