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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 7:09:07 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

What would you do?
I was told I HAVE to do these things or I am free to use the door and not to expect a decent reference.
I don't know American labor laws, but what I would do is write a letter clearly explaining my moral objections to the things I was being asked to do and indicating a willingness to perhaps work in a different area of the store for the duration of the promotion, then I would give that to my supervisor, manager and the owner, and to whoever appropriate at corporate HQ if it is a chain by hand, email, and certified mail. Then I would simply refuse to do the things I found morally objectionable. I would not quit, and if they fired me I would immediately contact the Ministry of Labor and file a complaint and begin a wrongful dismissal suit.

(in reply to siamsa24)
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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 7:34:29 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu

Asperger's and autism spectra have been proven time and again to have nothing to do with vaccines, and the tenuous connection was caused by one doctor's greed about promoting his own vaccine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/autism.html


This plus I would really like to see proof that vaccines of any sort are connected to the development of Hashimoto's. Siamsa I think what happened was a series of coincidences, unfortunate but coincidences. There is great value to as many people as possible getting the flu shot, especially those who work/live with people at risk for serious complications and those people as well.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 7:37:07 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		siamsa;

First let me say I am sorry that your daughter had to go thru all that. It's frightening.

I'm a nurse at a new job and there is quite a " push " for us to get every client vaccinated w/ the flu shot also. Personally, I do not ever take the flu shot, but then again and I think only elderly and people that are immumosuprresed or have Pulmonary disease need it. That is my PERSONAL belief. I recognize that others believe differently.
Here is how I handle it and it falls within the parameters of " pushing " the vaccine. I tell my patients that it is flu season and we have the flu shot available. I tell them that the Center for Disease Control reccomends that they get the flu shot. I give them the flyers we have from the CDC about the flu shot and that's it. They either want it or they don't. I don't personally endorse it, I tell them what the CDC reccomends one and that's that.

It's no more a moral dilema for me than abortion. It's there to be offered and as a healthcare professional it's my job to make them aware. It's not my job to insert my healthcare decisions on some one else. It's their choice to have the procedure or not. It's my job to make clients aware of the choices they have with all their healthcare options. It's not my job to insert my personal beliefs on clients.

People, in general, already have pre formed ideas about whether they want the flu vaccine or not. If some one doesn't want it or never takes it then I am not there to cajole them into it. If your company is telling you to get into a debate with people who decline the flu shot, then there is a problem. But if they want you to offer it to every person and tell them the advantages, then I see no problem.

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 9/11/2011 8:02:34 AM >

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:02:06 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Well thank god- you are not selling something dangerous-- like raw milk. !

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:19:34 AM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Without a contract to the contrary you can be fired in the U.S. for almost any reason unless the employer is discriminating against you for being part of a protected class. So OP, you're going to have to decide if it's more important to play neutral and offer the shot (whether you agree with it or not) or move on to someplace you're more comfortable.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:27:05 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		It sounds more like a carnival.   Medicine practiced via wearing a t-shirt.   This makes her a clown- pushing drugs.  

It is not fair to ANYONE.  Hard sell-  - is this the only product the store can hard sell?   Think of all the OTC stuff they could sell- if more people had the flu. 

I would tell her to move on- but in my area- all the stores are doing this.

She has 10 years experience there- so it would be sort of surprising if they came down hard on her.

Also by pushing this-  it could activate Post traumatic stress syndrome in her- which could be possibly a worker comp issue.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:27:53 AM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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From: Insanity & beyond
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

the way we peddle drugs and antibiotics and other preventative medicine is just making the bugs more resistant.  Strains mutate, and what used to work no longer did. 


Nope, people stopping the antibiotic when they feel better and people having to stop the antibiotic because they had side effects that were too serious for them to keep taking it are the reasons antibiotics don't work as well or at all.


I'm sorry, but this is your opinion & not necessarily fact. I worked in the medical field for over 20 years & I saw the effects of the overuse of antibiotics. This was back when Dr's would prescribe them for viral infections & acne. Pretty soon there was so much indiscriminate use of antibiotics that antibiotic resistant strains began to pop up. And no, I don't have any statistics to back this up, but the people I worked with saw this as a cause. To the point that they stopped prescribing them willy-nilly.

_____________________________

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Forget your perfect offering
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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:28:01 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

What would you do?
I was told I HAVE to do these things or I am free to use the door and not to expect a decent reference.
I don't know American labor laws, but what I would do is write a letter clearly explaining my moral objections to the things I was being asked to do and indicating a willingness to perhaps work in a different area of the store for the duration of the promotion, then I would give that to my supervisor, manager and the owner, and to whoever appropriate at corporate HQ if it is a chain by hand, email, and certified mail. Then I would simply refuse to do the things I found morally objectionable. I would not quit, and if they fired me I would immediately contact the Ministry of Labor and file a complaint and begin a wrongful dismissal suit.


Wrongful dismissal would depend upon the place of employment and the 'contract' they have for their employees. The company I manage has an employee manual that spells out a long list of requirements, guidelines, limitations, etc... of doing the job, being employed by us. As employees we sign a sheet that says we agree to comply with those guidelines. The reality.....they are a loose set of guidelines at best. However, IF we do need to dismiss an employee for a gross infraction of our guidelines, having that manual and signed contract protects the company.

IF the OP knew in the beginning that promoting some things she did not, or potentially did not agree with on a personal level, was going to be a part of the job....her failure to do so is legitimate grounds for dismissal. Saying "I am morally against xyz." is not enough. The bigger question would be things like...... Is it illegal? Is it a reasonable expectation given the nature of the job? etc.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:28:09 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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From: The Great Frozen North
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quote:

Think of all the OTC stuff they could sell- if more people had the flu. 


Yeah except that this is a reason to NOT push the flu shot.

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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:32:51 AM   
pahunkboy


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Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

Think of all the OTC stuff they could sell- if more people had the flu. 


Yeah except that this is a reason to NOT push the flu shot.


Lets talk about this.

A corporations legal mandate is to enhance profits for shareholders.   Not serve the public... not.   They legally have to enhance shareholder value.  They have no such mandate to the public.

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)
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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 8:42:30 AM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		~FR~

To the OP's dilemma: there will be many times in your life where you are going to have to pick your battles. In this economy, I don't think that I would rock the boat if I had a good job where I was getting good reviews & regular raises & was in line for a promotion. I'd be quietly looking for something else, all the while promoting the party line in the job that I already have. You need to look out for your child financially too. But that's just me.

I've had those jobs where they've asked me to do something that I didn't feel was quite in line with my personal moral view & I went along with it as long as I needed that job. This is something that only you can decide. Weigh the pros & cons in order to make that decision. If you go along with what they want you to do, while looking for another position elsewhere, you will get a good recommendation when you move on. Although, by law, they only things a former employer is allowed to tell a prospective employer is that you worked for them, the dates & whether they would hire you back. You could tell a prospective employer about your dilemma with this employer, but I'm not sure that would help you get a job with them.

First & foremost, make sure that baby has a place to live & food to eat. Then think about moral dilemmas. When you chose to give birth, you chose to care for this other human being, so that is your main concern as I see it.

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 9:40:01 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		As a parent, what you choose for your child is your decision, but you MUST put your own thoughts aside and ctually try to decide what's best for the child, not what's best for your personal reasoning. If you disagree with your doctor, speak with a different one, if you can find a pediatrics specialist who deals with disease risk and immunity in children, talk to him or her at length about the real risks. Is it a possibility to wait until your child is older to get certain immunizations and vaccines to reduce the risk of fatality if there is a bad reaction? You are not a doctor, don't for a second think you are wiser than one because you took a limited education regarding rare circumstances. Give your child the best... the advice of a medical professional who has years of education and experience far exceeds your opinions. Your concern for your child's health colors your judgement of what actually improves her health and reduces risk in the long run, over the short term impacts you witness.

Second matter of the flu shot advertisement... do it.
Telling someone to speak to their doctor about getting a flu shot if they haven't already isn't advertising for a drug company, it's telling a person to be informed about their health. For a lot of people a flu shot is the right choice, if it's the wrong choice for them that's for them and their doctor to call on, not you. If you're worried about personal liability, telling someone to get a flu shot and they have a bad reaction to it, tell them to go to their doctor for it so they are in expert medical care when they get their flu shot. Up here in Canadia land I think (I dunno if this is my doctors policy or a regulated one across the country) it's mandatory to stay in the doctors office or hospital until they know if you're going to have an immediate reaction. They also take extra care if it's your first flu shot and they don't know how you'll react.

Your personal beliefs do not negate factual medical science and it's usefulness in improving the public health.

Not everyone needs the flu shot or the vaccines, but there are many who do, and shooting everyone is the happier alternative to watching people die of flu complications every year. It's not perfect, the world isn't perfect, we are not all knowing, instead medical professionals do their best based on study to try and help us live healthier better lives. Drug companies want to make their money no doubt, but I have met a lot of doctors who will give me truth and scientific fact in the privacy of their office, instead of pushing drugs that aren't needed. You should find a family doctor you have faith in, and take their advice.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 9:47:10 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline
quote:

Up here in Canadia land I think (I dunno if this is my doctors policy or a regulated one across the country) it's mandatory to stay in the doctors office or hospital until they know if you're going to have an immediate reaction. They also take extra care if it's your first flu shot and they don't know how you'll react.


As someone who works in healthcare, it's standard procedure. I don't know what all doctors do but I do know that for example when we were being immunized against H1N1 we had to wait 20 minutes. I also know that every time I got the shot I had to hang around.

_____________________________

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The pain gonna make ev'rything alright ~ Black Crows

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 9:53:02 AM   
LinnaeaBorealis


Posts: 8595
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		I got a flu shot one year & ended up getting very sick after being exposed to the sick child next door. I'd moved to a different part of the country & they had bugs I'd not been exposed to & the flu shot wasn't for that particular strain. I've never had another flu shot, mainly because I seem to be able to keep my immunity to bugs very high. I will come down with something if I allow myself to get too stressed. The year that H1N1 was so rampant, I got it but an extremely mild case of it. I was over the worst of it in a day. Luckily, I was under a load that had extra time on it, so I was able to shut down & sleep my way through it.

But this thread isn't really about vaccinations, is it? It's really about what would you do if your job required you to do/say something against your principles.

Sorry for continuing the highjack.

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 10:07:47 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24
It was more of a question of what would you do if you were asked to do something at work that directly conflicted with your personal beliefs.


Working in telecom it is difficult for me to imagine a scenario I might be put in at work that challenges my personal belief system. If this really bothers you try to skirt around the issue as much as you can and hope that it does not cost you your job.There are lots of folks out there who would have no reservations at all about wearing that t-shirt. Maybe it's time to step aside and let one of them handle it.


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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 12:17:55 PM   
DeviantlyD


Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/26/2007
From: Hawai`i
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

quote:

What would you do?
I was told I HAVE to do these things or I am free to use the door and not to expect a decent reference.
I don't know American labor laws, but what I would do is write a letter clearly explaining my moral objections to the things I was being asked to do and indicating a willingness to perhaps work in a different area of the store for the duration of the promotion, then I would give that to my supervisor, manager and the owner, and to whoever appropriate at corporate HQ if it is a chain by hand, email, and certified mail. Then I would simply refuse to do the things I found morally objectionable. I would not quit, and if they fired me I would immediately contact the Ministry of Labor and file a complaint and begin a wrongful dismissal suit.


Let me enlighten you about American employment laws. If you're hired "at will", and a great number of people are in their jobs, you can be let go for no explanation at any time. Sure there are exceptions available, but good luck proving your employer let you go for one of those "exceptions" reasons.

Edited for clarity.

< Message edited by DeviantlyD -- 9/11/2011 12:24:29 PM >

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 3:15:36 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24
What would you do?
I was told I HAVE to do these things or I am free to use the door and not to expect a decent reference.  I am an otherwise excellent employee... but I am really struggling with this.


i've had quite a few employers tell me to serve food that was spoiled, or had been left out all night, had been dropped on the floor, was burnt or undercooked, or whatever. i used to fuss about it, but that jeopardized my job. Nowadays i just shut my mouth and do as i'm told, dreaming of the day when it's my restaurant and i can run it as i see fit. There is nothing you can do. You are an at will employee. Then can fire you for any reason, and they will if you cause trouble for them. It's a shame.

pam

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 3:18:49 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

Up here in Canadia land I think (I dunno if this is my doctors policy or a regulated one across the country) it's mandatory to stay in the doctors office or hospital until they know if you're going to have an immediate reaction. They also take extra care if it's your first flu shot and they don't know how you'll react.


As someone who works in healthcare, it's standard procedure. I don't know what all doctors do but I do know that for example when we were being immunized against H1N1 we had to wait 20 minutes. I also know that every time I got the shot I had to hang around.

Its the same policy here with my hospital and family doc

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/11/2011 11:42:05 PM   
Termyn8or


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Joined: 11/12/2005
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"i've had quite a few employers tell me to serve food that was spoiled, or had been left out all night, had been dropped on the floor, was burnt or undercooked, or whatever. i used to fuss about it, but that jeopardized my job. Nowadays i just shut my mouth and do as i'm told,"

They got little gizmos that record voice for A LONG TIME on very little battery power. You can make a backup on your PC and on the web by emailing the file to yourself or others. Think blackmail. I could've done it plenty of times but most of the people I have worked for would've just shot me.

T^T

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 1:45:33 AM   
xxblushesxx


Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis

~FR~

To the OP's dilemma: there will be many times in your life where you are going to have to pick your battles. In this economy, I don't think that I would rock the boat if I had a good job where I was getting good reviews & regular raises & was in line for a promotion. I'd be quietly looking for something else, all the while promoting the party line in the job that I already have. You need to look out for your child financially too. But that's just me.

I've had those jobs where they've asked me to do something that I didn't feel was quite in line with my personal moral view & I went along with it as long as I needed that job. This is something that only you can decide. Weigh the pros & cons in order to make that decision. If you go along with what they want you to do, while looking for another position elsewhere, you will get a good recommendation when you move on. Although, by law, they only things a former employer is allowed to tell a prospective employer is that you worked for them, the dates & whether they would hire you back. You could tell a prospective employer about your dilemma with this employer, but I'm not sure that would help you get a job with them.

First & foremost, make sure that baby has a place to live & food to eat. Then think about moral dilemmas. When you chose to give birth, you chose to care for this other human being, so that is your main concern as I see it.


I missed that earlier. That is a commonly held misconception. A former employer can tell anyone *just about* anything they please. While many corporations have that policy as a cya type thing, not all do. Do NOT count on this being the case with any employer.

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com


(in reply to LinnaeaBorealis)
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