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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 11:55:32 AM   
pahunkboy


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I do not suggest trying to out-do a chain store.   It is not worth it.  They have the lawyers and deep pockets.   Pick your battles carefully. 

(in reply to xssve)
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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 11:56:52 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
The choice is yours. Do the job you were hired to do or find another job.


If you can find another job, i doubt it would be any different.  The fact is going 10 whole years without having to make a serious ethical compromise at work is actually pretty good.  i used to think it was just the restaurant industry.  It's not, it's every industry.  My mom's a teacher, and she HAS to pass the school board members kids, or be fired.  My sister's a nurse in a hospital that's so understaffed, that she says it's a disaster waiting to happen.  It's the same everywhere.

pam

quote:

c


Of course there are ethical dilemmas in every field. Your mother has a union backing her up, that is one ethical issue I would not compromise or look for another job on.

Hospitals are nearly always understaffed, that isn't really an ethical dilemma. It is knowing what a situation is and doing the best you can with what you have.

The food service industry is, by far, among the worst for poor conduct (for lack of a better term) and employee abuse. That was something I did on an off part time for about 20 years in every level from diners to 4 star dining. I enjoyed it and had a lot of fun, but I don't miss the problems that I encountered while doing it.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 12:20:15 PM   
ricken


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quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

..... I work for a major retail drug store chain and they are pushing the flu shot.  Not just encouraging it, PUSHING it.  We are supposed to wear t-shirts promoting the flu shot, ask every person in the store if they have had one and tell them they they should get one if they haven't, and if they have we are supposed to encourage the pneumonia vaccine as well.
I have a serious issue with this.....
What would you do?....



I'm not going to address any issue regarding anything other than the moral issue for you, you have choices

What I would do...
Do every other part of your job to the best of your ability, But when it comes to pushing the product you don't believe in, do it in your flatest, most non-enthusiastic voice you can drone out of your mouth. My person experience with retail employes is that many of them really don't want to bother selling. So no one can blame you if your not a "good " salesperson.


It is also not your job to decide if people need these products that the store is selling, you can quite anytime you want, but with the way jobs are I would make sure to have a good one lined up first. At least you know whats going on at the place you work now...

As an observation, when I go into a store and there are people pushing something, most of the time I see people just say "no thanks" and keep walking, are you really expected to run after them and badger them?




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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 12:34:09 PM   
pahunkboy


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I just keep walking....    

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 5:34:12 PM   
DesFIP


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Speaking of flu shots, does anyone know why they're being pushed so early this year? I usually get mine as late in the year as possible so it will last through the winter season. Getting one in late August which is when I first started seeing them, means you're at risk come March, or am I mistaken?

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/12/2011 7:55:15 PM   
LafayetteLady


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The flu shot is different each year because each year the flu strain is different each year. So yes, you are mistaken.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 3:11:12 AM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

Getting one in late August which is when I first started seeing them, means you're at risk come March, or am I mistaken?


You are mistaken but not for the reason LL posted. The flu shot doesn't "wear off" that soon. Someone who is immunized early is no more at risk than someone who waits.

quote:

Does getting vaccinated against flu early in the season pose a risk that immunity may wane before the end of the season?
No. Flu vaccination provides protection against the influenza strains contained in the seasonal vaccine for the entire season. Vaccination can begin as soon as vaccine becomes available.


http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/fluvaccine.htm#immunity

My guess is that it's to get as many people as possible immunized so it's being offered earlier than usual.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 5:03:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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Not only that, zeph, but to get those who are highest at risk immunized as early as possible so that their protection sets in before the flu strikes.... preventing the risks associated with getting the shot while having the flu.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 5:12:10 AM   
lizi


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These answers about why or why not to get immunized early are interesting. I'm in school for a medical program and we were told to get our flu shots in Oct because our clinical sites would want to see that we received it then. We were told that then it would last for the whole season. I can see logically though that once you are immunized, your body has the appropriate defenses so time shouldn't matter. I mean people have chicken pox as children and keep their immunity for life. Hmmm....I guess I'll have to ask in class why they're pushing for the Oct flu shots and not to have it now.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 7:08:22 AM   
xssve


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Statistically speaking, it better to have the shot than not, particularly if you're in a high risk group.

But, the Flu virus mutates, and they generally wait till the last minute in order to get the most up-to-date strain - so even getting the shot doesn't guarantee you won't contract a different mutated strain.

I forget who mentioned the military, yes in boot camp, there is a veritable soup of bacterial/viral strains from generations of recruits, it's a perfect breeding ground for them - probably still some of the 1918 strain in there somewhere - taken together, they're called the "Recruit Crud", and it's basically Eight weeks of blowing big green loogies, but I don't know of anybody that ever died from it.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 7:12:45 AM   
pahunkboy


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I will never forget how my late best friend scammed 2 flu shots one year.   LOL.   He wanted 2 because he was heavy.   He was logged as already having one.... but swore they made a mistake.


I miss Jim.   RIP.  :-(

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 9:17:13 AM   
tazzygirl


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Does getting a flu vaccine early in the season mean that I will not be protected later in the season?

Flu vaccination provides protection against the influenza strains contained in the vaccine that will last for the whole season. Vaccination can begin as soon as vaccine is available. Studies do not show a benefit of receiving more than one dose of vaccine during a flu season, even among elderly persons with weakened immune systems.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm#doesgetting

October is typically seen as the best month to get the shots, allowing you to build up the immunity before Feb when it usually hits the hardest.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lizi)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 9:43:19 AM   
GreedyTop


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hunky, your friend was an idiot, then.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 9:55:11 AM   
Missokyst


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In this economy I really hope there are jobs for which you might be suitable. Having been in retail I know they can make you follow what ever agenda they are pushing at the time.

As for me I think immunizations are fine for some people. I am not susceptible to the flu.. so far. But I am still in the age range where such things would probably not be life threatening for me even if I got sick. However, my mom is not, so I will get the shot alongside her so that that virus has less chance of entering our household.

When my kids were younger they got their immunizations and nothing bad ever happened. I tended to wait until they reached a full year before I allowed any immunizations, I guess I wanted to be sure they were in good health first. And then the measles stuck our area when my youngest daughter was about 9 months, her sister had already been immunized. My older daughter never got sick, but my younger one had the worst case of measles I had ever seen. She had them in her scalp, between her toes, in her eyeballs, every place that had a patch of measles had measles between measles. Her fever was so high that she had to be taken to the hospital to cool down. It was very scary.

I know that many people are anti immunization and that is fine. I figure one way or another the population loses some to make room for more. As far as the retail push goes, when someone approaches me with a sales pitch I generally walk away. So if the OP is thinking of leaving her job because she fears that her sales pitch will encourage others to buy the speil, then consider that those people are

A. Wanting a flu shot anyway.
B. Sheep that will do anything.

Either way, it is not her pitch that is making them decide.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ricken

quote:

ORIGINAL: siamsa24

..... I work for a major retail drug store chain and they are pushing the flu shot.  Not just encouraging it, PUSHING it.  We are supposed to wear t-shirts promoting the flu shot, ask every person in the store if they have had one and tell them they they should get one if they haven't, and if they have we are supposed to encourage the pneumonia vaccine as well.
I have a serious issue with this.....
What would you do?....



I'm not going to address any issue regarding anything other than the moral issue for you, you have choices

What I would do...
Do every other part of your job to the best of your ability, But when it comes to pushing the product you don't believe in, do it in your flatest, most non-enthusiastic voice you can drone out of your mouth. My person experience with retail employes is that many of them really don't want to bother selling. So no one can blame you if your not a "good " salesperson.


It is also not your job to decide if people need these products that the store is selling, you can quite anytime you want, but with the way jobs are I would make sure to have a good one lined up first. At least you know whats going on at the place you work now...

As an observation, when I go into a store and there are people pushing something, most of the time I see people just say "no thanks" and keep walking, are you really expected to run after them and badger them?







_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 10:22:51 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

On the few occasions I was forced to get a flu shot, I ALWAYS, WITHOUT FAIL ended up sick with pnemonia, bronchitis, or one hell of a cold.  I say forced, because I was in the military.  I know, all of you are going to tell me that you can't get sick from the flu shot, but I'm not a huge believer in that kind of coincidence.  I had never gotten any strain of flu prior to that time, and since I got those damn flu shots, I get colds and yes, once the flu, too easily.  ALl I have to do is be next to someone who says the damn word, and I get sick.


The only time I ever puked from the flu, and the last time I had a flu shot, was in 1989 when I was forced to because I was in the military. I clearly remember a medical personnel saying, "You can't have the flu, you had the flu shot," right before I puked. Again.

(I was 3.5 years out of boot camp, not in a crowded dorm situation but in a single family townhouse, and working with a mere handful of coworkers.)

siamsa24 - I'm with you on vaccines but will answer your OP -

A few years ago my company initiated a project that I felt was illegal and unethical. I thought carefully about it, and decided I needed to make a stand and if I lost my job, so be it. I told my manager my feelings and that I was unwilling to work on the project. Other than being a line item in my otherwise stellar performance review, there were no repercussions. But I was committed to walking away from the job if they forced me to do something I believed was wrong.

At another company, I brought up a difficult subject and ended up getting fired for it. I was already looking for another job, and when I got home there was an email from a prospective employer asking me to come for an interview. I got that job, which was a much better job than the one I lost. Sometimes when one door closes, another opens.

You're in a tough situation - best of luck to you.

KK


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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 10:29:38 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Does the Vaccine Matter?

Firm


Great article!

Such comparisons have shown a dramatic difference in mortality between these two groups: study after study has found that people who get a flu shot in the fall are about half as likely to die that winter—from any cause—as people who do not. Get your flu shot each year, the literature suggests, and you will dramatically reduce your chance of dying during flu season.

Yet in the view of several vaccine skeptics, this claim is suspicious on its face. Influenza causes only a small minority of all deaths in the U.S., even among senior citizens, and even after adding in the deaths to which flu might have contributed indirectly. When researchers from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases included all deaths from illnesses that flu aggravates, like lung disease or chronic heart failure, they found that flu accounts for, at most, 10 percent of winter deaths among the elderly. So how could flu vaccine possibly reduce total deaths by half? Tom Jefferson, a physician based in Rome and the head of the Vaccines Field at the Cochrane Collaboration, a highly respected international network of researchers who appraise medical evidence, says: “For a vaccine to reduce mortality by 50 percent and up to 90 percent in some studies means it has to prevent deaths not just from influenza, but also from falls, fires, heart disease, strokes, and car accidents. That’s not a vaccine, that’s a miracle.”

The estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction is based on “cohort studies,” which compare death rates in large groups, or cohorts, of people who choose to be vaccinated, against death rates in groups who don’t. But people who choose to be vaccinated may differ in many important respects from people who go unvaccinated—and those differences can influence the chance of death during flu season. Education, lifestyle, income, and many other “confounding” factors can come into play, and as a result, cohort studies are notoriously prone to bias. When researchers crunch the numbers, they typically try to factor out variables that could bias the results, but, as Jefferson remarks, “you can adjust for the confounders you know about, not for the ones you don’t,” and researchers can’t always anticipate what factors are likely to be important to whether a patient dies from flu. There is always the chance that they might miss some critical confounder that renders their results entirely wrong.

When Lisa Jackson, a physician and senior investigator with the Group Health Research Center, in Seattle, began wondering aloud to colleagues if maybe something was amiss with the estimate of 50 percent mortality reduction for people who get flu vaccine, the response she got sounded more like doctrine than science. “People told me, ‘No good can come of [asking] this,’” she says. “‘Potentially a lot of bad could happen’ for me professionally by raising any criticism that might dissuade people from getting vaccinated, because of course, ‘We know that vaccine works.’ This was the prevailing wisdom.”

Nonetheless, in 2004, Jackson and three colleagues set out to determine whether the mortality difference between the vaccinated and the unvaccinated might be caused by a phenomenon known as the “healthy user effect.” They hypothesized that on average, people who get vaccinated are simply healthier than those who don’t, and thus less liable to die over the short term. People who don’t get vaccinated may be bedridden or otherwise too sick to go get a shot. They may also be more likely to succumb to flu or any other illness, because they are generally older and sicker. To test their thesis, Jackson and her colleagues combed through eight years of medical data on more than 72,000 people 65 and older. They looked at who got flu shots and who didn’t. Then they examined which group’s members were more likely to die of any cause when it was not flu season.

Jackson’s findings showed that outside of flu season, the baseline risk of death among people who did not get vaccinated was approximately 60 percent higher than among those who did, lending support to the hypothesis that on average, healthy people chose to get the vaccine, while the “frail elderly” didn’t or couldn’t. In fact, the healthy-user effect explained the entire benefit that other researchers were attributing to flu vaccine, suggesting that the vaccine itself might not reduce mortality at all.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 10:39:41 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Speaking of flu shots, does anyone know why they're being pushed so early this year? I usually get mine as late in the year as possible so it will last through the winter season. Getting one in late August which is when I first started seeing them, means you're at risk come March, or am I mistaken?


I suspect they are pushed early to help with manufacturing and distribution, and the same reason we start seeing Christmas items in the stores in November.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/11/does-the-vaccine-matter/7723/3/

Guidelines issued by the New York City Department of Health, says Newman, “encourage us to give a prescription to just about every patient with the sniffles,” a practice that some experts worry will quickly lead to resistant strains of the virus.

Indeed, that’s already happening. Daniel Janies, an associate professor of biomedical informatics at Ohio State University, tracks the genetic mutations that allow flu virus to develop resistance to drugs. Flu can become resistant to Tamiflu in a matter of days, he says. Handing out the drug early in the pandemic, when H1N1 poses only a minimal threat to the vast majority of patients, strikes him as “shortsighted.” Indeed, samples of resistant H1N1 were cropping up by midsummer, increasing the likelihood that come late fall, many people will be infected with a resistant strain of swine flu. Alarmed at that prospect, the World Health Organization issued an alert on August 21, recommending that Tamiflu and Relenza be used only in severe cases and in patients who are at high risk of serious complications. By mid-August, two U.S. swine flu patients had developed Tamiflu-resistant strains.

The U.S. first began stockpiling Tamiflu and Relenza back in 2005, in the wake of concern that an outbreak in Southeast Asia of bird flu, a far more deadly form of the disease, might go global. On November 1, 2005, President George W.Bush pronounced pandemic flu a “danger to our homeland,” and he asked Congress to approve legislation that included $1billion for the production and stockpiling of antivirals. This was after Congress had already approved $1.8billion to stockpile Tamiflu for the military, a decision that was made during the tenure of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. (Before joining the Bush Cabinet, Rumsfeld was chairman for four years of Gilead Sciences, the company that holds the patent on Tamiflu, and he held millions of dollars’ worth of stock in the company. According to Roll Call, an online newspaper covering events on Capitol Hill, Rumsfeld says he recused himself from all government decisions involving Tamiflu. Gilead’s stock price rose more than 50 percent in 2005, when the government’s plan was announced.)

As with vaccines, the scientific evidence for Tamiflu and Relenza is thin at best. In its general-information section, the CDC’s Web site tells readers that antiviral drugs can “make you feel better faster.” True, but not by much. On average, Tamiflu (which accounts for 85 to 90 percent of the flu antiviral-drug market) cuts the duration of flu symptoms by 24hours in otherwise healthy people. In exchange for a slightly shorter bout of illness, as many as one in five people taking Tamiflu will experience nausea and vomiting. About one in five children will have neuropsychiatric side effects, possibly including anxiety and suicidal behavior. In Japan, where Tamiflu is liberally prescribed, the drug may have been responsible for 50 deaths from cardiopulmonary arrest, from 2001 to 2007, according to Rokuro Hama, the chair of the Japan Institute of Pharmacovigilance.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 1:37:16 PM   
lizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Does getting a flu vaccine early in the season mean that I will not be protected later in the season?

Flu vaccination provides protection against the influenza strains contained in the vaccine that will last for the whole season. Vaccination can begin as soon as vaccine is available. Studies do not show a benefit of receiving more than one dose of vaccine during a flu season, even among elderly persons with weakened immune systems.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm#doesgetting

October is typically seen as the best month to get the shots, allowing you to build up the immunity before Feb when it usually hits the hardest.


Thank you for the info Tazzy. We have to do an article from CDC for class, I'll use this one! Even though it seems that it doesn't matter when you get the shot, I'll wait till Oct. If it's true that our clinical sites look for us to have it in Oct then I don't want to mess anything up. Good to have the info though.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/13/2011 6:34:53 PM   
pahunkboy


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I think her store should push vasectomies too.   Have an in store clinic- and fix all the men who need to be fixed.

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RE: Moral Dilemma and Work - 9/15/2011 3:04:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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Just came back from the Drs office, whereI got my flu shot. I asked why it was being offered early this year. The response I received was that the CDC is reporting three cases already this year, and thats why the recommendation is for now.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 100
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