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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 8:59:31 AM   
HeatherMcLeather


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quote:

Just for conversation, what kind of animals do you guys own?
None. Hanners is opposed to keeping animals as pets. There is a stray tom cat that hangs around, but he isn't ours, he is just a local alley cat. He comes and goes as he pleases, we generally don't see much of him in the summer. We don't even have a name for him, we refer to him as "the cat".

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 9:02:23 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

quote:

My breeder handles all ear cropping/posting before they will release her to me


I encourage you to not have that done. It's cruel and there is no reason to have it done aside from aesthetics.

It is not just cruel it is pointless as it is simply to make the animals conform to an artifial standard of what the breed should look like. There is a legitimate reason to remove puppy's dew claws but docking the tails and ears is just plain barbaric.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 9:45:37 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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I agree, ear and tail butchering is cruel. 

I have a 2 year old German Short-haired Pointer, named Axel, and a 6 mo puppy, named Skye, that is so odd looking I've no idea what mix of breed she is.

Currently, I'm petsitting a Saint Bernard, 2 cats and a tortoise. 

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 9:48:27 AM   
slvemike4u


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I "own" a mixed breed rescue named "snuggles" I didn't name her my niece did...I also "own" a female cat named "bootsie". What is amusing about these two are the walks....I walk snuggles three times a day...bootsie has taken to walking along with us and recently ,in a stark example of learned behavior, has started doing her business along the walk.So there I am walking a dog as a cat follows along......talking to both of them as I do so.
The rest of the community believes I've slipped a gear.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 11:24:19 AM   
DomKen


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I trained my last cat to walk on a harness. I did get more than a few odd looks but it let me take her to the park safely. I tried it with Abby my Maine Coon but she chases squirrels and is a very fast accelerator so its hard to keep hold of the leash when she tries to get going.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 11:54:10 AM   
soul2share


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I live to serve my 4 cats......KB is just like a dominant in the fact that he demands EVERYTHING NOW!  And he's got me trained well.......I get up in the middle of the night to feed him, or if he's just plain bored.  Boo and Smooch are my good boys, they behave themselves in a very proper manner....unless or until I open the windows...then it's "LOOK OUT....COMIN' THRU!!!  OUTTA MY WAY!!!".  And the latest addition is Squeaks, my Little Princes....well, as little as a Maine Coon can be.  She's doubled in size since I got her, and goes about 18 pounds...not fat, either, just BIG!

And I'll probably end up with another one.....there are the 3 little ones outside now.  I'm hoping my neighbor will cave and take two, and I'll keep the other one until, or if, I find a home for him.  So, I'll be halfway to "Crazy Cat Lady" status.

Of course, I was crazy long before I had cats, but that's another story! 

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 12:51:14 PM   
M4S73R


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LAWL. i find it funny all you cat owners telling me to not crop. So i refer you to the Doberman Pincher Club of America. 

http://dpca.org/PublicEd/the-doberman/ears/

Now im sure most of you will go on and on about this. Stop listening to other people. I am a long time owner of Dobes and there is NOTHING none of you can say that is going to tell me that there is something wrong with this.

Here is the AKC postion on it.

"EAR CROPPING, TAIL DOCKING AND DEWCLAW REMOVAL
The American Kennel Club recognizes that ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw
removal, as described in certain breed standards, are acceptable practices integral to
defining and preserving breed character and/or enhancing good health. Appropriate
veterinary care should be provided."


http://www.akc.org/canine_legislation/position_statements.cfm#earcropping

So back to the point of the posts. Looks like a lot of you have cats/rodents of some form.  Applause to slavemike for rescue. I volunteer at the local animal shelter and encourage people to get dogs from there. 


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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 12:55:46 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

LAWL. i find it funny all you cat owners telling me to not crop. So i refer you to the Doberman Pincher Club of America. 


If by that you are referring to declawing I haven't and would never do that. If it's because you think we don't know anything about dogs, it's just ignorant. Says a lot about you that you would do something that is cruel and completely unnecessary though.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 12:57:43 PM   
M4S73R


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and obviously you didnt click the links did you? Stop talking out your ass.


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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:00:03 PM   
GreedyTop


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the AKC determines the cropping etc is desireable due to their dog shows.

I fail to see how cropping ears, docking tails, etc is actually in the best interest of the animals health.

preserving the animals "breed character" would best be served by not insisting on bloodlines, IMO.. concentrating on bloodlines leads to eventual fucktardness (MUST mate dog X with bitch Y to get the proper conformation and coloring...leads to mating dog X with bitch Y's progeny..first or second gen.. etc etc etc...)

oddly, I notice that similar practices arent often the norm for cats and horses.... (in my limited study..)

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:11:08 PM   
M4S73R


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I suppose we could just let all breeds intermix and have nothing but muts with large health issues.  Also the first link shows the FUNCTIONALITY of cropping/docking/dewclaw removal.

ETA: I'm not to concerned with blood lines as i dont show my dogs. They are used for work. Anubis helps me with dog rehabilitaion of agressive dogs. mainly larger dogs that are considered to be violent in nature (pits, dobes, rotties). and if you read the first link that will explain why we dock/crop


< Message edited by M4S73R -- 9/17/2011 1:13:33 PM >


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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:45:46 PM   
GreedyTop


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according to the last 3 vets I have spoken to, that crap about the HEALTH spouted by the AKC (who, of course has NO vested interest in the subject ) IS just crap.

Dewclaws, yeah... cropping/docking? thats nothing more than trying to look pretty for the dog shows. it is COMPLETELY unneeded for breeding purposes.

as to the muts(sic) being inherently unhealthier than purebloods? bullshit... health issues in dogs(regardless if they are pure or MUTTS) is largely dependant on the individual animal (although, genetics may have a say in it).

so.. mutilate your pup if you feel you must.. but unless you plan to show her in championship arenas, you are just being unnecessarily cruel to her.

btw: functionality my ass... see above re: show vs mating (and vs PET).

if ya aint AKC showdog material, then the mutilating of the animal is PURELY ignorance/vanity/posturing/CRUEL

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:47:36 PM   
M4S73R


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The Dobermans “look” is that of a compact, powerful, medium sized dog that shows an attitude and temperament reflecting great nobility and confidence. His short, tight coat and cropped ears and docked tail add to his clean lines and effectiveness as an elite protection breed.

But, the docked tail and the cropped ears on the Doberman are historically VERY FUNCTIONAL in origin and serve important purposes. A docked tail was an important characteristic of the Doberman because the tail represents a “body part” that can be easily and readily injured.Injury can happen by accident, such as knocking it against hard surfaces or getting it caught between surfaces (doors, windows, car doors) which can cause bruising, hematomas (pockets of blood), sloughing off of hair and tissue, gangrene and terrible fractures of the vertebra requiring major reparative surgery to treat and even save the tail. The tail also served as a handle that an attacker could grab and injure which could cause the dog to experience pain and trauma and cause him to abandon his job of protecting his owner.

So docking was also a functional part of the Dobermans effectiveness as a family protector. Cropped ears, likewise, were the logical, functional addition to complete the Dobermans physical equipment to make him the elite family companion and protection dog that he was, even from the beginning.

There are two primary reasons that we desire cropped ears, and both have to do with FUNCTION.  The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a “handle” for an attacker to hang on to.  Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound “localization”.  An erect eared dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone,whereas a drop eared dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone.  Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage. The DOBERMAN **STANDARD** asks for “ears normally cropped and carried erect”. 

This simply implies that the ears are cropped in a normal manner. Responsible breeders have the ear-cropping surgery done and healed before they leave the breeders home. The ears are cropped in a shapely manner when the Doberman is a youngster, usually between 7 to 12 weeks. The ear must belong enough to crop, and the puppy should not be so old that the surgery becomes more difficult for the ears to successfully stand.The Veterinarian puts the puppy under anesthesia and then proceeds to remove the excess ear on the outside portion of the ear.   It is cut in a curving and graceful design  and then the edges are stitched.  The ears are taped over the head and wrapped with gauze for protection or they are glued with surgical glue to foam or a Styrofoam cup or other material to keep the ears upright and the edges exposed to the air for good healing. The stitches are removed after about 10 days, and the ears must be kept from puckering—which is the edges pulling together and causing the ear to shorten because of the scar tissue in areas along the cut edge.  The ears are examined everyday to make sure they are healing well and when all edge sare totally healed they are ready to be taped. After the edges are fully healed, with NO SMALL OPEN WOUNDS the ears can be rolled and TAPED.  Below is a website that will show the usual manner that ears are taped.  The technique is demonstrated by Carol Selzle Petruzzo, a very long time, successful breeder and Handler.   The DPCA Breeders Education pages are invaluable for learning how to care for and tape the healed cropped ears. There are several ear taping articles available on the B.E. article web-pages. http://dpca.org/BreedEd/kb/index.php/articles/47-ear-caretaping/153-taping-advanced-for-puppies There are a variety of lengths and shapes of cropped ears. The cropped ear should be in balance with the head and body. Ear cropping is an art and each cropper has their own style.   The show conformation Dobermans are cropped longer and more stylish than most pet crops that an average Veterinarian would do.   The longer, more stylish crops are beautiful, but they can take more time taping to get the ears to finally stand.   Success with ears standing has a great deal to do with persistence of the person taping and the technique.   Problems do arise and it is best to seek the advice of an experienced Breeder for a recommendation of an  experienced Veterinarian that has cropped hundreds of ears.

< Message edited by M4S73R -- 9/17/2011 1:50:20 PM >


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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:52:10 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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Okay so you know how to copy and paste yay you! It's still a load of crap meant to justify a practice that is cruel and inhumane. Further, since you don't plan on showing your dog you don't even have that excuse to fall back on.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:56:52 PM   
M4S73R


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lawl, cant argue the logic so you do what most ignorant fuck heads do. You cant argue logic. And to sit there and say the PROFESSIONAL DOG BREEDERS are all wrong is showing your ignorance.  L2read. Stop being ignorant.


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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:57:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M4S73R

LAWL. i find it funny all you cat owners telling me to not crop. So i refer you to the Doberman Pincher Club of America. 

http://dpca.org/PublicEd/the-doberman/ears/

Now im sure most of you will go on and on about this. Stop listening to other people. I am a long time owner of Dobes and there is NOTHING none of you can say that is going to tell me that there is something wrong with this.

Here is the AKC postion on it.

"EAR CROPPING, TAIL DOCKING AND DEWCLAW REMOVAL
The American Kennel Club recognizes that ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw
removal, as described in certain breed standards, are acceptable practices integral to
defining and preserving breed character and/or enhancing good health. Appropriate
veterinary care should be provided."


http://www.akc.org/canine_legislation/position_statements.cfm#earcropping

So back to the point of the posts. Looks like a lot of you have cats/rodents of some form.  Applause to slavemike for rescue. I volunteer at the local animal shelter and encourage people to get dogs from there. 


Bullshit. Just because I own a cat doesn't also mean I am not very aware of dog breeding practices, my brother breeds boxers for a living. Docking/cropping of ears and tails is unnecessary mutilation of functional body parts. The absolute only reason it is done at all, to non working breeds actually used in traditional ways, is because some Victorian era halfwits thought the dogs looked better that way and they wrote the breed standards to require it.

Most of Europe has banned the practices already and the US is moving in that direction.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 1:58:42 PM   
GreedyTop


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From: Savannah, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: M4S73R

The Dobermans “look” is that of a compact, powerful, medium sized dog that shows an attitude and temperament reflecting great nobility and confidence. His short, tight coat and cropped ears and docked tail add to his clean lines and effectiveness as an elite protection breed.

But, the docked tail and the cropped ears on the Doberman are historically VERY FUNCTIONAL in origin and serve important purposes. A docked tail was an important characteristic of the Doberman because the tail represents a “body part” that can be easily and readily injured.Injury can happen by accident, such as knocking it against hard surfaces or getting it caught between surfaces (doors, windows, car doors) which can cause bruising, hematomas (pockets of blood), sloughing off of hair and tissue, gangrene and terrible fractures of the vertebra requiring major reparative surgery to treat and even save the tail. The tail also served as a handle that an attacker could grab and injure which could cause the dog to experience pain and trauma and cause him to abandon his job of protecting his owner.

So docking was also a functional part of the Dobermans effectiveness as a family protector. Cropped ears, likewise, were the logical, functional addition to complete the Dobermans physical equipment to make him the elite family companion and protection dog that he was, even from the beginning.

There are two primary reasons that we desire cropped ears, and both have to do with FUNCTION.  The first is that a neatly cropped ear is less of a “handle” for an attacker to hang on to.  Since the Doberman has been bred to be a personal protector, a cropped ear gives the dog a decided advantage in a confrontation with a perpetrator. The second has to do with sound “localization”.  An erect eared dog can localize the source of a sound to within a 5 degree cone,whereas a drop eared dog can only localize a sound source to within a 20 degree cone. Since Dobermans do SEARCH AND DETECTION as well as SEARCH AND RESCUE, cropped ears are a decided advantage. The DOBERMAN **STANDARD** asks for “ears normally cropped and carried erect”. 




gee, like any OTHER breed that has long ears and tails....

as for that last bit? I have yet to meet ANY dog wth uncropped ears that doesnt have a great sense of hearing. not to mention that dogs use SMELL more than hearing or eyesight.

go ahead.. buy the propaganda,.

mutiliate your pup ( that you dont plan to show). are you going to use her for S&R? ? hmm .. my argument holds up there.. as does the breeding, pet, etc.

however... my argument does NOT hold up against vanity/machismo/and all that crap.

I hope she bites your balls off.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 2:00:07 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M4S73R

I suppose we could just let all breeds intermix and have nothing but muts with large health issues. 

Mutts are far healthier than purebreds. Just check out the difference in insurance rates.

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 2:02:03 PM   
M4S73R


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I love how all these argument have no FACTs to back them up. -1

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RE: New Member of the Family (Elvira) - 9/17/2011 2:04:09 PM   
M4S73R


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: M4S73R

I suppose we could just let all breeds intermix and have nothing but muts with large health issues. 

Mutts are far healthier than purebreds. Just check out the difference in insurance rates.


actually i think that insurance rates would have more do to with VALUE. Purebreds are more expensive then muts typically


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